The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
One of the good things about Goodreads is that you can talk about books without people immediately assuming that you're trying to show off.
There are clear groups in the books mentioned on this thread. Entertaining popular hits, like Da Vinci Code. Another group are books you grow out of. Their personal meaning and importance tends to diminish with age. Like Catcher, Catch-22 or Hesse. Hunger Games fits both categories. Then there's books that were some kind of literary milestones - turning points in art. But what seemed revolutionary then, is commonplace now. The first one to do something is not always the best. Now to bed and a page or two of Conceiving God. Have a good one, y'all.
Paul Martin wrote: "Karen wrote: Sorry I mentioned it then.Hm, what?"
I said I'm sorry I mentioned The Prophet. I was being overly sensitive. I'll blame it on the boost of estrogen I received this morning which is probably more than you wanted to know.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "but it's probably the one that should endure, certainly more than Hugh Prather and Richard Bach. But you know what? I think we'd be in a better place today if folks were still reading all of these books and they were still "overrated." I agree! I think that Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values make a connection to the phoney philosophy people live by, and Holden refers to. He wanted to understand how the world's worked his friends were content to let others determine the matrix of life and they glibly follow along without much thought. Just stand in line because that is where everyone is and eat your soup...with tax, interest and penalties, please. Because you are not allowed to tell them they might fall off the deadbeat horse while they reach for the ring. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values would be a good "string" read or companion to The Catcher In The Rye.
I am reading a book called Decadence: And Other Essays on the Culture of Ideas This book has been incredibly insightful about ideas verses truth and how sentiment clouds our judgement (why did the song "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes pop into my head? Sorry)
But for another reason I am excited about this book and that is that it is helping me make better sense out of Ulysses. The idea of teasing ideas apart in order to get truth...or as this author calls it disassociations.
Here is one quote and it is the first couple lines in the book.
(I think the first lines of books are very significant as it sets the tone of the book.)
THE DISASSOCIATION OF IDEAS
There are two ways of thinking. One can either
accept current ideas and associations of ideas, just as they are, or else undertake, on his own account, new
associations or, what is rarer, original disassociations.
The intelligence capable of such efforts is, more or less,
according to the degree, or according to the abundance
and variety of its other gifts, a creative intelligence.
It is a question either of inventing new relations be-
tween old ideas, old images, or of separating old ideas,
old images united by tradition, of considering them one
by one, free to work them over and arrange an infinite number of new couples which a fresh operation will
disunite once more, and so on till new ties, always
fragile and doubtful, are formed.
In the realm of facts and of experience such operations
would necessarily be limited by the resistance of
matter and the uncompromising character of physical
laws.
Ethan Frome... what's the deal with that book...?
Karen wrote: I said I'm sorry I mentioned The Prophet. This statement was not neccessarily directed at you. I was being overly sensitive. I'll blame it on the boost of estrogen I received this morning which is probably more than you wanted to know. I'm still confused, so no harm done.
Petergiaquinta wrote: " I don't think professors ever thought much of him, but girls sure loved him, and if a guy wanted to appear sensitive, he did too. I had three or four books by Gibran. And it worked! ..."That is funny. I had a boyfriend that showed me that book. I thought it was another religion so didn't take any notice of. But he thought it was important. I didn't think much of his philosophy nor he mine.
Lucie wrote: "I feel completely uneducated never heard of Gibran! Should I try to read him?"Dare I say that I love some of his essays? Especially the one on marriage,children, and joy and sorrow. Some essays are a bit weak, but others make up for it. There is a religious element to the book, but even as an athiest this didn't bother me.
Mick wrote: "There are clear groups in the books mentioned on this thread. Entertaining popular hits, like Da Vinci Code. Another group are books you grow out of. Their personal meaning and importance tends to ..."There are a few books I never grew out of- I enjoyed Catcher in the Rye 30 years ago, and I am loving it now.
Paul Martin wrote: "Karen wrote: I said I'm sorry I mentioned The Prophet. This statement was not neccessarily directed at you. I was being overly sensitive. I'll blame it on the boost of estrogen I received this morn..."Lol. I became overly sensitive because a few people here I THOUGHT were ridiculing The Prophet- I could have been wrong, but regardless, it is a bit out of character for me to be that sensitive.
Mick wrote: "I think that great truths are usually in a way self-evident, trite phrases. What Gibran, Pirsig - and to mention another one - The Tao of Pooh - say is usually or almost always true. Well, with Gib..."Don't be too sure that you know what "stoned hippies" sound like; that's a lot of people and many of them differ(ed) from one another.
I don't even know what a hippie is. I'm 56 so I'm not young, but the term hippie is very much a cliche.
Karen wrote: "I don't even know what a hippie is. I'm 56 so I'm not young, but the term hippie is very much a cliche."It was pretty clear in the '60s and '70s who hippies were. What you can't generalize about is their reading habits. Plenty of them read Pirsig and Bach and Hugh Prather, and some of them didn't. They read Hesse and Gibran and all kinds of things. And some of them didn't read at all...
But Lucie, you asked if you should read Gibran. I notice you just gave a one-star review to Hesse's Siddhartha, so I'd say that's a resounding "no." Prolly my favorite Gibran was Jesus: Son of Man, but I'll take Hesse over Gibran any day, although that's really an apples and oranges kind of thing, I'd say.
Here's a hippie book for you: Been Down So Long It Looks Like Up to Me by Richard Farina, but I can't really recommend it, although Gnossos Pappadopoulos is a great name for a character.I prefer Horse Badorties, though, in Kotzwinkle's The Fan Man. Now there's a great hippie book!
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Here's a hippie book for you: Been Down So Long It Looks Like Up to Me by Richard Farina, but I can't really recommend it, although Gnossos Pappadopoulos is a great name for a character.I prefer ..."
Let's see. What is a hippie book? Would it be the kind of books I traded for with other stoned hippies in the village of Diabet and on the road to wherever? If so, that includes Mishima, R.D. Laing, Henry Miller, Colette, Borges, Tanzaki, Cortazar, Malaparte, Rechy, John Genet, Gurdjieff and there were many more, all definitely subversive (except not enough women) so I guess in that respect predictable. But nobody talked like a stoned hippie because of being too stoned too care much for talking I suppose. There was a lot of drumming though.
Paula wrote: "I think these lists are helpful if for no other reason than I often (always) get sucked in by the hype. I would never NOT read a book because it showed up on this thread- but I WOULD put one dow..."
I agree. I have a problem seeing Catcher and Gatsby on this list. Are they easy books to get? No. That is the difference between literature and Twilight. The issues I think most people have with these books is that they are old. They aren't overrated because so much great literature written today is built on a layer of what these books did for their time. I haven't read The Book Thief but my school librarian did and she said it was a great novel. I read one this guys earlier books and I can see how he could have stepped up to greatness. Can a book be overrated but still a great work of literature? Yes. Maybe we should just make a list of books that are complete crap but made lots of money. That isn't the same as overrated though.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Karen wrote: "I don't even know what a hippie is. I'm 56 so I'm not young, but the term hippie is very much a cliche."It was pretty clear in the '60s and '70s who hippies were. What you can't gen..."
I don't think the definition of hippie IS clear. There were a lot of posers out there.
Kallie wrote: "Let's see. What is a hippie book? Would it be the kind of books I traded for with other stoned hippies in the village of Diabet and on the road to wherever? If so, that include..."Those are some great books read by hippie and non-hippie alike, but I wouldn't call them "hippie books." As I said, I don't think we can generalize about what hippies read.
But Richard Brautigan and Tom Robbins? Now them's some hippie books!
GoodReads has a couple of laughable "hippie book" lists. 1984 is the top pick on one of them!
Only read a sampling of the comments. As others have noted this is very subjective. A few comments re: the original post. I have read only about half of these books. I totally disagree though about The Catcher in the Rye & The Great Gatsby, especially the latter. I think both are great classics & will be widely read after all of us are dead and long forgotten. Seeing Twilight on the same list as most of the rest of these is ludicrous. This deserves to be tossed in the rubbish heap of junk literature. I enjoyed The Da Vinci Code but accept it for what it is, entertaining fluff.Since I read only a small portion of this thread I do not know if others have commented on this but for me, the #1 most overrated book hands-down is The Sun Also Rises. I finished the book not giving a damn about any of the characters, in fact most of them I found to be obnoxious. Add to that the recurring anti-Semitic theme - yuck! The only thing I found enjoyable about the book was being that the first half of it was set in Paris, where I have been many times, it was nice the see the city through the eyes of someone from 90 years ago. I was very glad the book was as short as it was otherwise I doubt I would have ever finished it. Give me a Steinbeck or Faulkner novel any day over the musings of Hemingway who apparently was so insecure he had to be obnoxiously macho.
keep in mind, some of these books are forced reads in high schools. any time you force something on someone they're going to hate it.
Ed wrote: "Only read a sampling of the comments. As others have noted this is very subjective. A few comments re: the original post. I have read only about half of these books. I totally disagree though about..."Oh, a Faulkner fan! I love him. Are you a hippie too?
Karen wrote: "Ed wrote: "Only read a sampling of the comments. As others have noted this is very subjective. A few comments re: the original post. I have read only about half of these books. I totally disagree t..."Not a hippie but certainly old enough to remember the era. I certainly did my share of 60's protesting though. :)
Karen wrote: Okay, let's talk about books we love then. I love Catcher in the Rye. I don't think it's boring, and I found Holden to be very troubled, insightful, sensitive and very funny. He could also be annoying.I find it interesting that of all the books I named that I didn't like (including Gone With The Wind, yet!), Catcher in the Rye is the one that provokes heated defense (despite the fact that this book is what prompted the initial question, which wasn't mine).
Ed wrote: "Karen wrote: "Ed wrote: "Only read a sampling of the comments. As others have noted this is very subjective. A few comments re: the original post. I have read only about half of these books. I tota..."Hey I like that answer. I was really too young for that protest era.
Ed wrote: "Only read a sampling of the comments. As others have noted this is very subjective. A few comments re: the original post. I have read only about half of these books. I totally disagree though about..."Ed: Amen re: the Hemingway! The anti-Semitism got to me, too, but mostly I just didn't find any of the characters except perhaps the woman to be sympathetic. And yes, Steinbeck or Faulkner would be a welcome antidote after that, if not Alan Lightman's beautifully written and thought-provoking Einstein's Dreams.
Love Steinbeck, like Faulkner, cannot read Hemingway without falling asleep.I'll willingly own that's on me. I've never been able to find a way to appreciate Hemingway's writing.
Ron wrote: "keep in mind, some of these books are forced reads in high schools. any time you force something on someone they're going to hate it."That must be a major reason for turning people off books. Shame.
Some of my best friends are or were stoned hippies. Castaneda, Tolkien, Tao of Physics, the Beats.
What about the most underrated books or authors? James Thurber's Thirteen Clocks. Paul Watkins, especially his early work. Kipling is underrated, IMO.
Renee wrote: "Love Steinbeck, like Faulkner, cannot read Hemingway without falling asleep.I'll willingly own that's on me. I've never been able to find a way to appreciate Hemingway's writing."
I have also tried to appreciate Hemmingway but have a hard time. I don't like his sentence structure- very short and choppy.
Karen wrote: I have also tried to appreciate Hemmingway but have a hard time. I don't like his sentence structure- very short and choppy. I have only read The Old man and the Sea. Are all his books written in the same style?
Mick wrote: "Ron wrote: "keep in mind, some of these books are forced reads in high schools. any time you force something on someone they're going to hate it."That must be a major reason for turning people of..."
It's turning students off to some great literature. They're not ready for it (alot of them), and having to take tests on books just creates a dislike for them. Reading for pleasure is so different and more rewarding, IMO.
Paul Martin wrote: "I have only read The Old man and the Sea. Are all his books written in the same style?"Pretty much.... He does have variations, and his voice did develop over time, but by the time he got to "Old Man" he was pretty much the writer he was looking to be.
If it's not to your taste then it's not to your taste. Personally, I've read so much goddamn Hemingway that I can stand to go without his work these days, just because I feel like I'm saturated, but I do still admire that terse, seemingly simple prose. It's more subtle than it appears at first glance, and has a certain weight, if you will.
Gary wrote:He does have variations, and his voice did develop over time, but by the time he got to "Old Man" he was pretty much the writer he was looking to be. I liked it well enough. The writing, I mean. It was the plot that didn't really captivate me in The Old Man and the Sea.
Personally, I've read so much goddamn Hemingway that I can stand to go without his work these days,
I imagine he's virtually thrown at you in school in english-speaking countries? He's hardly ever mentioned over here, except when someone brings up his quote about Knut Hamsun as a sort of justification of national literary pride.
What made me interested in him was the movie "Hemingway & Gellhorn". Don't know how accurate it is, but he stuck me as a despicable and yet extremely generous man, in his own manner.
but I do still admire that terse, seemingly simple prose.
I liked it as well, but I kept thinking that I might have hard time reading a 500 page novel in that style. But it works? I suppose it does, since he's widely read.
Thankfully, the only required Hemingway I got was Old Man. It wasn't awful, but it wasn't wonderful either. It hit me like *yawns*I picked up a few others, notably For Whom the Bell Tolls and didn't get far in any of them before I realized I wasn't going to enjoy them at all, and, even before I knew anything about Hemingway's personal character the thought kept hitting me, "okay, so you're too egotistical to admit you don't have the faintest clue about punctuation beyond sticking a period in when you want a pause — and won't learn."
Abbreviated sentence structure, for me, anyway, loses its punch when it's used. All. The. Time. It quickly turns reading into a set of visual hurdles set up at awkward times.
Cormac McCarthy uses aberrant punctuation, but his is either insinuated so deftly that it moves you along with the flow of the words and, like his non-use of quotation marks, somehow makes sense — if you even notice, or he uses it to sucker punch you with a part of the story. But he obviously has complete command of all the tools at his disposal.
Paul Martin wrote: "I imagine he's virtually thrown at you in school in english-speaking countries? He's hardly ever mentioned over here"I suppose it's still hard to graduate from a high school in the U.S. without some exposure to Hemingway, but he doesn't enjoy the same place in the high school curriculum that he did even 15 years ago. His shorter works might still be there, and a lot of students still get Old Man somewhere in their reading, but few schools are still teaching A Farewell to Arms, which is what used to be a staple. Don't get me started on what high schools are doing in the U.S. I'm not a great Hemingway fan, but sadly American lit is getting squeezed out in the U.S., of all places!
But to thoroughly enjoy/appreciate what Hemingway is doing in Old Man, I think you need to be more grounded in his earlier work. Santiago's experience on the ocean has a lot to do with how Hemingway sees himself as an author all these many years after Francis Macomber, the Nick Adams stories, The Sun Also Rises, Farewell to Arms, etc. It's an end-of-the-career work, looking back after many years of not publishing good material. We know it; Hemingway knew it, too.
Renee wrote; "Abreviated sentence structure, for me, anyway, loses its punch when it's used. All. The. Time. It quickly turns reading into a set of visual hurdles set up at awkward times".This is exactly why I can't read him, it doesn't flow for me at all. Kindof unfair of me because I haven't read all that much of him although I don't know if I can.
"Cormac McCarthy uses aberrant punctuation, but his is either insinuated so deftly that it moves you along with the flow of the words and, like his non-use of quotation marks, somehow makes sense — if you even notice, or he uses it to sucker punch you with a part of the story. But he obviously has complete command of all the tools at his disposal"
And what about Faulkner too. I love him, and for some reason the 15 page sentence didn't bother me at all. I guess it's a matter of taste.
I LOVE Faulkner's sentences. It's all one thought, so one sentence. He uses it to sweep you along, gathering speed and momentum, adding urgency.
Funny, I love Hemingway apart from Old Man and the Sea and MOvable Feast
There are many who have an appreciation for Hemingway. Maybe it's buried somewhere in the DNA . . .
Renee wrote: "I LOVE Faulkner's sentences. It's all one thought, so one sentence. He uses it to sweep you along, gathering speed and momentum, adding urgency."What a perfect description- now I have to friend you. Later, I have to hit the road- no texting while driving.
Ed wrote: "Karen wrote: "Ed wrote: "Only read a sampling of the comments. As others have noted this is very subjective. A few comments re: the original post. I have read only about half of these books. I tota..."
I lived in a communist country and it was very different for me ( I wrote about it in the author;s thread of Literary fiction discussion if you are interested
I lived in a communist country and it was very different for me ( I wrote about it in the author;s thread of Literary fiction discussion if you are interested
I'd try more of Faulkner, but the setting just (in my very subjective opinion, of course) doesn't interest me at all. I guess it's my bias against the southern states. The southern gothic style is not something I enjoy...Maybe I'd change my mind if I actually visited Mississippi, but alas, it's far away.
Paul Martin wrote: "I'd try more of Faulkner, but the setting just (in my very subjective opinion, of course) doesn't interest me at all. I guess it's my bias against the southern states. The southern gothic style is ..."My insane mother moved us from the Bay Area to the south, and believe me, the setting doesn't appeal to me either, lol! It's the stories and how he tells them that get me. Something Julia Sugarbaker (remember the sitcom, Designing Women?) said in one episode summed it up for me:
"I’m saying this is the South. And we’re proud of our crazy people. We don’t hide them up in the attic. We bring ‘em right down to the living room and show ‘em off. See, Phyllis, no one in the South ever asks if you have crazy people in your family. They just ask what side they’re on."
Oh I love Southern Gothic, but of course, I am not AMerican
Renee wrote: My insane mother moved us from the Bay Area to the south, and believe me, the setting doesn't appeal to me either, lol! It's the stories and how he tells them that get me. Haha, alright, you've convinced me (especially since I see that we have similar opinions on The Kingkiller Chronicle!). Recommendation for a first read? Only read the first 80 pages or so of Light in August, so maybe something else?
Petergiaquinta wrote: " but few schools are still teaching A Farewell to Arms, which is what used to be a staple. Don't get me started on what high schools are doing in the U.S. I'm not a great Hemingway fan, but sadly American lit is getting squeezed out in the U.S., of all places!.."I readA Farewell to Arms because it was mentioned in the Catcher In The Rye. I thought the story illustrated what Holden had said about life being a game, sure it's a game if you are on the winning side but if you are on the other side, "what's a game about it?"
Here is some more trivia that I looked up on Wiki about Salinger and Hemingway:
"During the campaign from Normandy into Germany, Salinger arranged to meet with Ernest Hemingway, a writer who had influenced him and was then working as a war correspondent in Paris.[31] Salinger was impressed with Hemingway's friendliness and modesty, finding him more "soft" than his gruff public persona.[32] Hemingway was impressed by Salinger's writing and remarked: "Jesus, he has a helluva talent."[2] The two writers began corresponding; Salinger wrote Hemingway in July 1946 that their talks were among his few positive memories of the war.[32] Salinger added that he was working on a play about Holden Caulfield, the protagonist of his story "Slight Rebellion off Madison", and hoped to play the part himself.[32]"
I really haven't read enough Hemingway to comment on whether I like him or not. I did enjoy Farewell to Arms, but also remember the style was "different" and I had to re-read a lot because I couldn't follow it intuitively.
It's hard to suggest an entry text to Faulkner. The easier stuff isn't the best. The harder stuff might turn a reader off. I'd try As I Lay Dying for a start. Anyone else?
It's not really considered Southern Lit, but the best dive into the pool, to get a feel for the what and where that SL is about, for me, is probably Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil. It's a superb depiction, and the first two thirds of the book is mainly describing characters, which sounds dull, but it ISN'T. It makes even me want to visit Savannah despite my sworn oath that I am never going any farther south than I am now. Berendt captures the colors and somehow paints them on the pages with black and white type. It's probably time for me to take another dip in the SL pool. Haven't been there in awhile and the lake of fantasy writing's gotten kind of overpopulated with carp lately. Maybe time to pick up Suttree and give it a read.
But I'll read and enjoy nearly anything that's driven by vivid characters, no matter what the setting. All good stories really come from the same root, they just grow in different scenery.
Faulkner's an imposing presence. Katherine Anne Porter, Carson McCullers, Flannery O'Connor, Tennessee Williams are good ones to venture into the water with. To Kill a Mockingbird.
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They read stuff, whether it's classic literature or current pop science articles or anything in between with..."
The Regurgitators would truly be great characters. Pickwickian, even. Can't think of one off the cuff, though. Trollope, maybe. Academics. Of course, there's lives a little Regurgitator in all of us. With age, one just learns to hide him better.