The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
Daniel wrote: "Sometimes real answers to real problems need not take real shapes, imo. "
We agree. Dumbo made me cry. Sometimes I need relief from reality. And I probably don't escape often enough. (I KNOW I don't!)
I just have this compelling sense of urgency that drives me toward work that feels more straightforward, if not simpler.
As I said about Marquez, I test the water now and then. But I won't be jumping in with both feet.
Marquez isn't necessarily a good basis for classifying anything else. I've got to read some of the other South American magical realists before I form I real opinion, but I suspect there are cultural/linguistic and stylistic — as well as true differences in outlook, possibly even genetic — that created a veil of remove. There was a remoteness to One Hundred Years of Solitude that made it difficult for me to become engrossed in the story. It kept me at a distance. I never felt that any of it was real, including the characters. Magical reality — to me — should evoke a sense of depth for a reader, leave them looking at the world they move through a little differently, pay closer attention to the shadows dancing on the edge of vision. Maybe . . .
Fantasy, in any form, has to be more real than reality while you're reading it, or it doesn't . . . get you there. Or that's my take on it, anyway.
Renee wrote: Fantasy, in any form, has to be more real than reality while you're reading it, or it doesn't . . . get you there. Well said.
Renee wrote: "Marquez isn't necessarily a good basis for classifying anything else. I've got to read some of the other South American magical realists before I form I real opinion, but I suspect there are cultur..."Stylistically, I know what you mean; Márquez's background is as a journalist, and that sometimes shows in his writing. It reminds me of Doctorow's mock-journalistic tone in Ragtime. I think you're meant to relate to his writing in an aesthetic and symbolic level rather than a realistic one. When the expedition in OHYoS finds a ship miles away from the ocean, for example. It's not realistic, and it's written in a detached kind of way, but it does evoke in the reader a sense of awe —perhaps not for that ship itself, but for all the "ships" we could find in our own lives, vestiges from past times, relics with no conceivable use for us, but that once meant the world to others. It's the sort of awe one gets looking at viking artifacts today within the sterile, white walls of a museum. I find that a lot of the magic in Marquez comes from dislocating rituals and objects in space and/or time, thus making us aware of their "strangeness" as pure things.
That's what I kept waiting — and trying to connect to, Daniel. It never got me there. It was close, a few times, but I was always an observer, never enough a part of the world, never saw through the characters' eyes. Never involved. I'll definitely read it again, maybe with a little mezcal . . .
I`ve read many of Marquez`s shorter pieces and was most impressed with ERENDIRA. The movie adaptation with Irene Papas was excellent as well.But Cortazar is the man. He beats them all, Borges, Paz,Mastretta, Rulfo....
Geoffrey wrote: "I`ve read many of Marquez`s shorter pieces and was most impressed with ERENDIRA. The movie adaptation with Irene Papas was excellent as well.But Cortazar is the man. He beats them all, Borges, Pa..."
I prefer Cortazar too, though I'm familiar only with his short stories. It's been a while so sorry I can't detail the preference except to say that I remember his work more vividly than that of the others.
Exactly, Kallie. Blowup was first rate as was Axoxtl. The latter draws you into the consciousness of a preamphibian critter that is native to a lake in Mexico. I don`t know how he does it but as you are reading the store and looking at this strange animal, (and I have seen them in Mx city and they are definitely very eccentric) your trade consciousness with the axoxtl you are gazing at. The man is a genius.Blow Up is much different from the movie which stars catherine deneuve, but essentially centers around the exploits of a professional photographer. The movie is even more surreal than the original short story. Who can forget the young adults on the tennis courts mime playing tennis, or the body in the park bushes that mysteriously disappears? In the story, however, it`s a photographer who has interrupted the solicitation of an aging beauty/prostitute of a teenage schoolboy in the park by his snapshot, then blows up the negative to wall size and spend weeks studying the photo`s grain in an effort to understand what he had witnessed.
I forgot that Cortazar wrote Blow-Up (wasn't that Vanessa Redgrave in the female lead though?) Anyway, I admired 'Axolotl' too; in fact that story is part of the inspiration for my profile pic this sight. I also simply like them as creatures that (I think) live only in Lake Titicaca, a name that I try not to think of in juvenile ways.
Kallie wrote: "I forgot that Cortazar wrote Blow-Up (wasn't that Vanessa Redgrave in the female lead though?) Anyway, I admired 'Axolotl' too; in fact that story is part of the inspiration for my profile pic thi..."Haha! When we learn about Lake Titicaca in the middle school I work at, we do get interesting responses to it's name.
Returning to 'reality' in novels, here is a link to an interesting NYRB article on J.G. Ballard by Zadie Smith:http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archi...
She makes a good case for Ballard's take on the subject of reality -- that what we take for granted as reality (especially in our modern consumerist world) is pretty much constructed, artificial and fragile. I haven't read 'Crash' and don't know if I can. I did read 'Empire of the Sun' and thought it a disturbing, unforgettable book; much more so than the Speilberg film.
Karen wrote: "Haha! When we learn about Lake Titicaca in the middle school I work at, we do get interesting responses to it's name."I still smile a little at it. :) On a certain level, I hope I always do....
There's something delightfully, quixotically paradoxical in talking about reality in novels.Especially if you take Emerson's view that "fiction reveals truth that reality obscures."
I wonder if any of you have read The Master and Margarita. This totally will spin your mind as you jump around a realistic story to the devil, to people riding on witches brooms. And then some religion thrown in for good measure.I had a hard time with that book, and wouldn't have stayed with it except my daughter was reading it and asked me to.
But it has helped me with reading Ulysses by James Joyce. Ulysses is almost too much reality and feels more plot-less.
I also do not read much in the fantasy genre, but am willing to stretch my bias against it. I have not read the books that you all are referring to but have found the discussion interesting.
Gary wrote: "Karen wrote: "Haha! When we learn about Lake Titicaca in the middle school I work at, we do get interesting responses to it's name."I still smile a little at it. :) On a certain level, I hope I..."
Yep- we need to be silly and juvenile sometimes!
I am reading How to Read Literature Like a Professor: A Lively and Entertaining Guide to Reading Between the Lines and it is very helpful (and entertaining.) It is a bit like the "TripTick" that AAA puts out...or did until GPS devices. A number of us are reading books that are challenging and this makes some of the interpretation a little more clear. There are also some people to whom the whole idea of reading classics for fun is anathema. Maybe this can help.
Moby Dick, The Great Gatsby, Ulysses, and Twilight on the same list? The internet can be a silly, silly place.Don't skip any of these books, except the chick lit vampire book. Altas Shrugged is a somewhat interesting read, but a lousy philosophy.
Karen wrote: "We need to be silly and juvenile once in a while."Yup.
CITR is a fine book about the tender age of disillusionment.
Catcher in the Rye, absolutely. Hated it! I didn't even like it when I *was* a teen; I thought the kid was annoying and boring. Well, there's also some Norman Mailer that I'd say is overrated, and some Hemingway, stuff that only a guy could love, like The Old Man And The Sea -- yeah, THAT's definitely in there. The testosterone O.D. books. Plus Richard Henry Dana's Two Years Before The Mast, Moby Dick, anything by Ayn Rand or William Burroughs or Hunter Thompson (oy!). Oh, and add Tom Clancy to that bunch: he has good plots but such unbelievably wooden dialogue, and he couldn't even find a real Lithuanian name for the sub captain in The Hunt For Red October! Seriously? When there were so many Lithuanians in the U.S. whom he could have asked??? Throw in Newt Gingrich's fiction, too: bloody awful. Not to mention Gone With The Wind -- I started that three times at different points in my life, and three times I threw it down before I could get to page 10. Honestly, who on earth would relate to a self-centered, two-faced brat like Scarlett O'Hara? Waste of time! Throw in Eat Pray Love: pretentious.Glad someone included 50 Shades in there -- BOring; but let's not forget one of the original overrated, truly awful bits of S&M erotica, too: The Story of O. OMG, I wanted to slap them both silly. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Next time, let's talk about underrated books we love -- much less depressing.
Jennifer wrote: "I was underwhelmed when I ready Jane Eyre, and wished I'd read it before my 40's when I was more of a romantic. I know I would've emotionally connected to it more at a younger age. I still liked it and thought it was good but not the best book ever. ..."I really didn't love Jane Eyre OR Wuthering Heights; not enough self-respect, those women -- but I wouldn't call the books overrated as such because of all the reaction they sparked when I read them for class. Really, truly NOT as boring as Two Years Before The Mast or The Old Man and The Sea.
Jonathan Livingstone SeagullZen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Anything by Kahlil Gibran
M.R. wrote: "Catcher in the Rye, absolutely. Hated it! I didn't even like it when I *was* a teen; I thought the kid was annoying and boring. Well, there's also some Norman Mailer that I'd say is overrated, a..."Okay, let's talk about books we love then. I love Catcher in the Rye. I don't think it's boring, and I found Holden to be very troubled, insightful, sensitive and very funny. He could also be annoying.
Mick wrote: "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"I have to disagree with you on this book. When we have kids that are taught to memorize but not how to do anything, you have to ask yourself what is QUALITY. When people are just interested in looking smart, you have to ask where is genius in that. I think American would all do well to sit down with their children and read Henry David Thoreau's book Thoughts from Walden Pond.
I think that this book is better the second time around. And like a good wine gets more complex the longer it ferment.
I recently reread CITR. I wanted to revisit it as an adult. I Loved it when I was a teen. I could identify with Holden. I too thought the world was full of phonies and no one understood. Reading it as a adult, I found Holden to be yes, annoying and a "stupid kid" that just doesn't get how the world works in real life. I do understand though, that he suffers from severe mental illness (depression)and its difficult to be a teenager. Also take into account the time it is taking place. Difficult, strange times indeed.
Carrie wrote: "I recently reread CITR. I wanted to revisit it as an adult. I Loved it when I was a teen. I could identify with Holden. I too thought the world was full of phonies and no one understood. Reading it..."I wouldn't call him stupid, actually he was very insightful for a 17 year old. No, he didn't understand how the world works, and I think that's why he was annoying.
Karen wrote: No, he didn't understand how the world works,I got the feeling that he did (to a certain extent) understand it, but didn't want to accept it, and desperately hung on to how he wanted it to be.
Paul Martin wrote: "Karen wrote: No, he didn't understand how the world works,I got the feeling that he did (to a certain extent) understand it, but didn't want to accept it, and desperately hung on to how he wanted..."
Good point, thinking everyone was phony was part of that unacceptance.
Mick wrote: "Jonathan Livingstone SeagullZen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Anything by Kahlil Gibran"
What, no Notes to Myself by Hugh Prather???
Interesting choice of books there, and your response again asks the question of what it means to be "overrated."
Based on these titles I'd say you, like me, are a child of the '70s. (Your profile says you're 13, which is obviously not true. And I don't resemble John Donne, so don't take offense.) I say that because in the '70s you probably could claim that these books were overrated. They were ubiquitous and almost everyone on the face of the planet was aware of them, even if they didn't have them on their cinder block bookshelves.
But today ask just about any millennial about these books and all you'll get are blank looks. They don't know who Kahlil Gibran is; they didn't buy a copy of The Prophet for their significant others. They've never heard about any of these books, no matter how powerful and permanent they seemed to be back in the day. So they aren't overrated now. They're just about forgotten, for better or worse.
I would say for the worse...you could make the claim that these books are nothing but hokey nonsense, but they helped us be more thoughtful human beings. The philosophy was thin, but at least we were reading some philosophy. Later on in college I read Plato for real, but when I was in high school they all made me think. And that's more than what most kids are doing today. And Cosmic has spoken to Zen already, but it's probably the one that should endure, certainly more than Hugh Prather and Richard Bach. But you know what? I think we'd be in a better place today if folks were still reading all of these books and they were still "overrated."
Petergiaquinta wrote: They don't know who Kahlil Gibran is; they didn't buy a copy of The Prophet for their significant others.People did that? I had never heard about it until a professor at the faculty once during a lecture dramatically exclaimed that The Prophet was one of the few non-law book he'd ever read, and was ever going to read again.
...and that's how it ended up on my to-read list. Not because I trust his taste in (or, lack of) literature, but he was so enthusiastic that it got me curious.
Paul Martin wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: They don't know who Kahlil Gibran is; they didn't buy a copy of The Prophet for their significant others.People did that? I had never heard about it until a professor at the..."
The Prophet has some beautiful and wonderfully wise poetic essays. I particularly like the one on marriage,love and children.
After you read The Prophet, I'd suggest reading some of Rumi's work. Or before.
Petergiaquinta, spot on. Yes, I am a child of the 70's and happy to hear that these books are fading. Luckily, I've never even heard of Hugh Prather, if you lump him with that lot. And you're also right about them helping people. Saying a book is overrated does not mean that the world would be a better place without it. That goes for most if not all of the books on the list that started this chain IMO.
In the '70s The Prophet was everywhere. If you went into a bookstore there would be a selection of Kahlil Gibran three feet wide on the shelf. I don't think professors ever thought much of him, but girls sure loved him, and if a guy wanted to appear sensitive, he did too. I had three or four books by Gibran. And it worked!
Petergiaquinta wrote: but girls sure loved him, and if a guy wanted to appear sensitive, he did too. I had three or four books by Gibran. And it worked! Too bad there's isn't a modern day equivalent. Instead of His Exquisite Eminence Khalil Gibran we now have... John Green and Paolo Coelho.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "In the '70s The Prophet was everywhere. If you went into a bookstore there would be a selection of Kahlil Gibran three feet wide on the shelf. I don't think professors ever thought much of him, but..."Ha! I was too stuck up and full of myself to do that so I used cooking and music instead. Al Green used to work wonders. My life is so much easier after the worst sex drive started fading around 40. Luis Bunuel said something similar - only he said after turning 70, I think.
"In the sweetness of friendship let there be laughter, and sharing of pleasures. For in the dew of little things the heart finds its morning and is refreshed."And you're saying John Green is worse? Never heard of him, either.
Mick wrote: "And you're saying John Green is worse? Never heard of him, either.More of a joke. I've only read one of his books. Disliked it very much, but most people seem to enjoy it. Not that it resembles The Prophet (from what I've read about it).
Ah well, I guess the main thing is that people read. Personally, I appreciate one sincere Hunger Games lover more than those who plod through all the great classics of world literature just so they can say that they have read them. The elitism of literary folk must turn a lot of people away from books. Which is a great pity.
You make an excellent point, Mick.
Mick wrote: more than those who plod through all the great classics of world literature just so they can say that they have read them.I kind of doubt that that's a normal thing to do :p How many people are that vain and iron-willed? Some, I'm sure, but it takes such an effort (for most people) to finish "all the great" classics that it's not something people would do if they didn't enjoy it.
But yeah, if The Hunger Games can function as an entry into the world of books, that's great! It was Harry Potter for me.
Paul Martin wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: but girls sure loved him, and if a guy wanted to appear sensitive, he did too. I had three or four books by Gibran. And it worked! Too bad there's isn't a modern day equival..."
Karen wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: They don't know who Kahlil Gibran is; they didn't buy a copy of The Prophet
Sorry I mentioned it then.
I think that great truths are usually in a way self-evident, trite phrases. What Gibran, Pirsig - and to mention another one - The Tao of Pooh - say is usually or almost always true. Well, with Gibran I actually often disagree. But you understand where he is coming from and what he is trying to say. It's just the style that rubs me wrong way. Most people sound like stoned hippies when they are trying to nail down a big, fat truth.
I've run into way more of what Mick describes than I'd like. I call them Regurgitators.They read stuff, whether it's classic literature or current pop science articles or anything in between with little or no comprehension, read what they're supposed to say about it, then pompously regurgitate it to the wonderment and awe of "lesser mortals."
They can make great characters for stories :D
Mick wrote: Most people sound like stoned hippies when they are trying to nail down a big, fat truth. Haha, I might quote you on that one day.
I feel completely uneducated never heard of Gibran! Should I try to read him?
Karen wrote: Sorry I mentioned it then.Hm, what?
Paul Martin wrote: "Mick wrote: more than those who plod through all the great classics of world literature just so they can say that they have read them.I kind of doubt that that's a normal thing to do :p How many ..."
Normal, no. But I've known a few. Tend to avoid them.
My daughter is a great Potter and Hunger Games fan. She's eleven and learning to devour books.
Many of the books - like the Catcher - mentioned on this thread are great when you're on the threshold of adulthood. Likes and appetites change. It's a journey - and now I'm beginning to sound like a stoned hippie.
Mick wrote: Normal, no. But I've known a few. Tend to avoid them. Really? Guess I've spent too little time in, uh, literary circles, or whatever they're called.
My daughter is a great Potter and Hunger Games fan. She's eleven and learning to devour books.
Sounds great. Was the same with me. Was all I could think about at the time.
Likes and appetites change. It's a journey - and now I'm beginning to sound like a stoned hippie.
Haha, you say that as if it's a bad thing? Guess I've never met a "real" hippie, having missed the 70's by twenty years...
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Haven't read much Shakespeare since high school. Macbeth, Hamlet, and a sonnet or two. All good. Saw The Merchant of Veni..."
I recently read Chekhov's "Ward No. 6" and, raw and grittily realistic as it was, I could not help but think how very much like Kafka it all seemed. Sometimes real answers to real problems need not take real shapes, imo.