The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books

"Moby Dick" I forced myself to read after I retired.
"Gatsby" is overrated for sure.
"Waiting For Godot" the same.
"Stranger" -- Don't think I ever read it.
"Ulysses" is the most overrated book ever! But I forced myself to read it right after "Moby Dick."
"Atlas"--Not even going to force myself.
"Twilight." Nah.
"Da Vinci Code" is a fine yarn but the concept in not new except to a new generation of readers.

How is the Great Gatsby over-rated its an honest classic because of its critique on the American dream.
Ulysses was groundbreaking in the style of writing.
The Bible is over-rated IMO.
The only way to know if anything is really over reated or not is to have an agreed upon set of standards and judge books based on those standards and then compare their scores with the praise.

The way to reduce the number of books which are over-rated is to personally avoid doing it. Avoid, that is, gratuitously praising books just because others do, or because it is expected. Over-rating can be combated only by honestly and unreservedly sticking to one's own true opinion when critiquing books.


I will vehemently argue DaVinci code, I LOVED it, thought it deserved its hype.
I'll issue a minor harrumph over Gatsyby's making the most o..."
Maria wrote: "Which books do you think are overrated?
Here's a quick sampling from various internet sites that recommend skipping these:
The Catcher in the Rye
Moby Dick
The Great Gatsby
Waiting for Godot
The..."
Kenneth wrote: "Maria wrote: "Which books do you think are overrated?
Here's a quick sampling from various internet sites that recommend skipping these:
The Catcher in the Rye
Moby Dick
The Great Gatsby
Waitin..."
Paula wrote: "Id agree with most, and I think you covered it well-
I will vehemently argue DaVinci code, I LOVED it, thought it deserved its hype.
I'll issue a minor harrumph over Gatsyby's making the most o..."
I absolutely love The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo. If you did not read it to the end you cannot judge it.

I completely agree. There is a reason why some books are classics and I'll admit that I don't always see what they are. I agree there is a lot of difference between those books and what you aptly term "commercial poorly written books with shallow characterization." Great way of putting it!



'Catcher in the Rye' is definitely overrated, but it's not in the same tripe category as 'Da Vinci Code', which was incredibly badly written and played fast and loose with fact.
Also, where's the Hemingway. If you're talking about 'classic literature' that gets way more respect than it deserves, then ol' Ernest should be near the top of the list.


I would like to respectfully disagree. Isn't that exactly what qualifies a book as overrated? If a 'classic' hadn't stood the test of time, it wouldn't be a classic, and thus probably wouldn't be eligible for consideration as overrated. I would say classics are prime targets for this discussion and are by no means infallible simply by there general classification.
That being said: Wuthering Heights = classic = extremely overrated

The Ambassadors
A Room with a View
Nostromo
The Tin Drum
Herzog
On the Road
Stranger in a Strange Land
I agree that The Stranger and The Great Gatsby probably should be on the list but I personally greatly enjoyed Moby Dick and Waiting for Godot and Atlas Shrugged.

The Ambassadors
A Room with a View
Nostromo
The Tin Drum
Herzog
On the Road
Stranger in a Strange Land
I agree that The Stranger and T..."
You are the first to mention Tin Drum. That was an odd book. I actually enjoyed it, but it is often grotesque and absolutely bizarre. Its impact on 20th century lit though was HUGE. It revived magical realism and characters representing countries or aspects of countries. Without Tin Drum there would be no 100 Years of Solitude and no Midnight's Children. I thought Oscar was an unflattering but more realistic portrait of the German people under Nazism. He wasn't maniacal or cartoonish evil, but rather extremely selfish and completely apathetic to the suffering around him. One memorable thing was Grass's gift for grossing out the reader with truly stomach churning descriptions. Especially that damn horse head scene. When writers like RR Martin try to be gory and dark, it is absolutely laughable in comparison. Martin will say, the Hound swung his sword and the knight's entrails spilled on to the ground. Grass would tell us what the entrails smelled like, what the texture was like, what sound they made when they hit the ground. I guess it isn't even fair considering I'm comparing the writing of a fat, comic book geek who has never even been hunting to a former tank gunner who fought for the Waffen SS.


"Martin will say, the Hound swung his sword and the knight's entrails spilled on to the ground. Grass would tell us what the entrails smelled like, what the texture was like, what sound they made when they hit the ground."
To me that is one of the criteria of good writing. While listening to a CD of The Three Musketeers in my car on the way home from work, I managed to eat a whole sleeve of Girl Scout Cookies. The book was dealing with the starvation of the French Citizens and I was hungry with them. What a shock to see the empty sleeve of cookies when I got home.

Although I totally understand someone hating Tin Drum, which is certainly not everyone's cup of tea, you have to admit it had one of the most hilarious dark comedy deaths in modern literature. Matzerath Sr. tries to hide his Nazi party membership from the Soviet soldiers in order to avoid being machine gunned to death. He does this by attempting to swallow his Nazi party badge and chokes on it. The Soviet soldiers machine gun him to death out of "mercy" so he will avoid the pain of choking, all while Matzerath himself laughs at the absurdist irony of the situation. It is also amusing that the Soviet soldiers that raid Oscar's house are from the Red Army's only ethnic Kalmuk (Mongol) division and are literally the bufoonish Mongols that Nazi propaganda tried to portray the Red Army as. The German neighbor woman who spends the entire novel complaining about how she never gets to have sex (her husband is a Boy Scout leader pedophile) gets raped to death by Russian soldiers. Did I mention Grass's humor is REALLY dark? This is the same novel where 2 moronic SS soldiers absurdly entomb kittens in concrete for no reason. When asked why in God's name he would do that, the soldier replies in deadpan, "because my boss ordered me to of course!"

It plays into every dark, cynical, anti-intellectual, perfectionist, disappointed, snobby, hipster, dismissive impulse people, myself included, have. I know some of these impulses are contradictory, but humans are complex.
All "overrated" is a personal experience that didn't live up to your expectations. Whether this is from personal anticipation—"Gee, I can't wait for the next GoT book"—the publicity and hype about a title—"OMG. You have to read Twilight right now. It is. The. BEST. Vampire. Love. Story. EVER."—or because the literary authorities (critics, reviewers, teachers) are praising it—"The Great Gatsby is the quintessential Early 20th Century/Jazz Age novel and possibly the Greatest American Novel."
For whatever reason, if something doesn't live up to the anticipated ideal, it gets called overrated.
I think people have become more cynical and overcritical about their media, too. Even things we purportedly enjoy and love we will savagely pick apart endlessly on the Internet. We seem much less willing to accept books on their own terms, and would rather apply a set of ideas of what a "good book should be".
I'm not saying there aren't horribly written books out there that are popular or critical favorites. Just that people often confuse their personal tastes with some sort of (possibly imaginary) objective standard of quality.
Veering back on topic, my personal reaction to the titles:
The Catcher in the Rye -a good book that I think has developed an undeserved mystique due to the author's reclusiveness, repeated banning attempts, and the whole John Lennon thing.
Moby Dick -a great book that is not for everyone; thrown at teenagers usually unprepared to appreciate it; so, it often poisons the entire "classic" well for some readers
The Great Gatsby -a great artistic achievement in prose and structure, with a cleverly disguised weakness in plot and characters you want to all drown in the pool.
Waiting for Godot -absurd, whimsical, existential; not for every taste
The Stranger -again, existential; that's just a little bleak for some readers
Ulysses -I appreciate Joyce from afar, but his work reads more like modern poetry with its linguistic playfullness; I detest modern poetry
Atlas Shrugged - haven't read it, probably never will, given what I do know of the author and the way her philosophy and works have been used by modern politics; if I ever did, it would be more to see the root of that than for literary reasons
The Da Vinci Code -this is an average thriller, enjoyable, briskly plotted. Know to much about the pseudo-history to be impressed by the "revelations" here
Twilight -just don't get this one. Read it to see what all the fuss was. Amateurish. Too many adverbs and flashy adjectives even for my taste. Central relationship disturbing, creepy, stalkerish and thoroughly unromantic
Are any of these by some objective standard "overrated"? No. Personally, I enjoyed some, disliked others, and did not enjoy some as much as I thought I might.
That's kind of life in a nutshell. It doesn't always give you what you expect.

Although I totally understand someone hating Tin Drum, which is certainly not everyone's cup of tea, you have to admit it had one of the most hilarious dark comedy deaths in modern literatu..."
Ian,
I appreciate your comments on The Tin Drum. Some of the points you made helped me to understand the book better. I did not take any literature classes in college so my last "academic" exposure to reading was in 1975 and that was pretty superficial. I have been reading classics at a slow rate most of my life but in the past five or six years have picked up the pace considerably.
I had not even heard of the term "magical realism". I looked it up and the light bulb came on for me! I am very slowly reading One Hundred Years of Solitude currently and just understanding that concept helps tremendously. I don't think I will like the book more but I believe it is better to dislike something you understand than to dislike something you are confused about. A concept I did gather while reading The Tin Drum was that of the "unreliable narrator" something which was new to me but very important to understanding the book.
You mentioned the horses head scene which I had almost forgotten. Yes, it was pretty disturbing but I thought the passage where the nuns were shot on the beach and everyone continued with their picnic was the most shocking.
I did get the symbolism when Matzerath Sr. chocked on his Nazi badge but I think I missed a lot of the symbolism in the novel. The ability of Oscar to shatter glass with his voice - was that a reference to Kristallnacht? What about his refusal to grow? Was there significance to the defense of the post office or was this a real event? How about all those skirts his grandmother wore?
You mentioned that Gunter Grass was in the Waffen SS (a fact that did not come out util 2006). I just read that he actually volunteered for the German submarine service in 1944 "to get out of the confinement he felt as a teenager in his parents' house". That little true fact in itself is hilarious. If he had been successful in enlisting in the German submarine service there probably would have been no Tin Drum as an assignment to a German sub that late in the war was tantamount to a death sentence.
Anyway, thanks for helping me think critically about this important novel even if I did not care for it much.
Ed

So, in my book club of about 10 people, we used the Modern Library 100 Best Novels and other similar lists to pick from. We each picked the books we wanted to read. For the two who hadn't read any of the books, we suggested Dracula and The Scarlet Letter. One person wanted to read more of the Lost Generation...Hemingway, Faulkner etc. and I decided to read more Dickens, Conrad, and attempt to read Rushdi and Morrison again.
We came back each month and discussed what we read. It was amazing! I didn't like the Lost Generation, but I learned enough from the person who did, to try one she read and appreciated it. It was the discussion that made the difference. Many of the classics take study. I got in Cliff's Notes and Monarch Notes on the books people were interested in and we discussed them. We did this for a year. I still don't like Salman Rushdi or Toni Morrison, and I am not certain if they will stand the test of time, but I see much more in them than I did before.
I don't exactly know how you get around this, but most high school students are too young and too unmotivated to appreciate many of the classics; however, if they don't read and study them, they will never get the skills to read them. It's a catch 22. Classics have long sentences, difficult vocabulary and abstract and philosophical content, but reading and studying them is the only way you can develop the skills to read others.
So why bother? I don't want to get political, but the mess in Congress is a good example of why. People on both sides cling tenaciously to their own point of view and can't understand the perspective of others or the limitations of their own thinking that is exactly why we study literature!


-Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children
-Bonjour Tristesse
-The Fault in our Stars (This one wasn't too bad only I think it's definitely not worth all the hype it's getting)

Ulysses is not read for vicarious enjoyment but is strictly an intellectual exercise. That`s why it is considered by some pundits as the century`s greatest. Not necessarily the bedside novel in waiting but must be studied as if preparing for a physics exam.

It plays into every dark, cynical, anti-intellectual, perfectionist, disappointed, snobby, hipster, dismissive impulse people, myself included, have. ..."
I appreciate that you emphasized the subjectivity of our reader responses -- that we can't speak for everyone and declare this or that book 'overrated.' Certainly this kind of judgment can express all the partial, pretentious attitudes you mention. And considering that we may feel a need to 'get even' with a respected or well-liked book we don't understand or appreciate, the label'overrated' is beginning to seem pretty useless as an avenue for real discussion, of the sort Anne describes (thanks to you too, Anne).
Paloma wrote: "Harry Potter
The Fault in Our Stars
The Hunger Games"
I agree with The Hunger Games. She dragged that on and on, beat it with a hammer, and burnt it. The second and third books were written with no reasons in mind. It should have been a stand alone novel.
The Fault in Our Stars
The Hunger Games"
I agree with The Hunger Games. She dragged that on and on, beat it with a hammer, and burnt it. The second and third books were written with no reasons in mind. It should have been a stand alone novel.

we're just a bunch of book readers who are trying to exchange opinions the diverge from the herd... the title of this thread is not "Bahh Bahh white sheep"
If you want to make a point, then make one- but if you want to use your vocabulary, write an overrated book and get it published so we can add it to this list.
You wrote a thousand word reply. The first two sentences are made up of solely adjectives and their accompanying modifiers: "Overrated, blasé, subjective, dark, cynical, anti-intellectual, perfectionist, disappointed, snobby, hipster, dismissive..."
SO what's your point? is it "YOU all suck?"
You deserve an A+ on your 5th grade vocab test. Get out of the way, return to the herd and let us wander on our own through realistic human interaction
In 6th grade you will learn the definition of overrated. It is, by your own language
"if something doesn't live up to the anticipated ideal, it gets called overrated."
BECASUE YES, that is what overrated means- get it?

Such as which ones? Fer cripes sakes, who puts any credence in what some fuqqin internet site says about anything real in the world? The internet has a memory span and a history-awareness of about 0.25 seconds. Who runs those sites? What authority do they have in this field? Whats the purpose of their website, to pose and preen? How'd they compile their list, by chatting with their 'immediate circle of cool friends'?
Maria wrote: "The Catcher in the Rye
Moby Dick
The Great Gatsby
Waiting for Godot
The Stranger
Ulysses ..."
Anyone who thinks the above titles, are a list of 'overrated' books? Doesn't know much about literature.
[However, they probably know very well, 'what they personally like' but what merit is that, when trying to disseminate a viewpoint to others?]
Those books were all groundbreaking feats and one of them ('Ulysses') is in a shortlist of the top 2 technical accomplishments ever achieved in the sphere of English literature.
Maria wrote: "Atlas Shrugged ..."
--the least you must admit for this one, is that it had a wide impact--
Maria wrote: "The Da Vinci Code
Twilight ..."
Yes these two are not only overrated, they're execrable. In fact they're not even literature. They're just the latest mass-media-culture, genre-squats a couple of no-talent hacks squeezed out from between their cheeks, right out onto a pile of cash of course. Merely gimmick books.
Along with these:
Nicholas Sparks
Hunger Games
Harry Potter
That's where any list of 'overrated' should begin.


Paula, I'm totally mellow. Sorry if my wordiness, possession of a vocabulary, or holding of an opinion in any way contrary to anyone else offended you.
Returning to the subject of "overrated" works, I just can never seem to get into Faulkner at all.

When you highlighted "Its the discussions that make the difference"....I was shaking my head ---I
You're welcome!
Could we perhaps agree that classics are written for a different purpose and standard than a lot of
popular literature? For me, I have different standards for casual literature. Longfellow
has something to say about this in "Day is Done"
“Come, read to me some poem,
Some simple and heartfelt lay,
That shall soothe this restless feeling,
And banish the thoughts of day.
Not from the grand old masters,
Not from the bards sublime,
Whose distant footsteps echo
Through the corridors of Time.
For, like strains of martial music,
Their mighty thoughts suggest
Life's endless toil and endeavor;
And to-night I long for rest.”
The books I most love because of what they have taught me are:
The Bible…and yes, I have read it completely in 5 different translations over time and am in awe of its inner consistency, beauty, poetry and the complete range of human emotions…not to mention it’s spiritual value.
Of Human Bondage… – it opened up the mind of someone totally different from me and helped me understand how people don’t see the same reality that I do.
The Way of all Flesh… – it showed me how we are a part of the thinking of the generations before us and that it will always influence us, but if we understand it, we can break free of it.
Les Miserables - it showed me that there is always the possibility of human redemption and that when we are offered it, it is up to us to recognize it and take it.
But there are many times when I just want an Agatha Christie, Hamish Macbeth or Harry Potter. However, even in casual literature, I want a book to meet the standards of good writing and plot development.
Btw, this has been a wonderful discussion. What a great topic!

Catcher in the Rye: I think you need to be a teenager when you read it. I picked it up for the first time at around 30, and couldn't get past the second chapter.
Moby Dick: I like this book. I enjoy the way it takes it's time. I like the overall worldview. But I understand why it's not everyone's cup of tea.
The Great Gatsby: Perhaps too romantic (in the classical sense) a novel to really appeal to everyone. I've always enjoyed it, however.
Waiting for Godot: Never read it, never care to.
The Stranger: I liked "The Plague" so maybe I'll like this. No opinion.
Ulysses: To the extent that Joyce opened the door for Burroughs and his ilk, I'll probably detest this if I ever get a chance to read it. But then again, maybe not.
Atlas Shrugged: Goes on a bit too long. Rand's flaws as a novelist are quite apparent. The Fountainhead is a better read, and contains the same ideas.
The Da Vinci Code: Boring, blathering bosh. This man cannot write dialogue, cannot create interesting characters, cannot pen a climax to save his miserable soul. Gets basic, verifiable facts wrong. Other than that, he's a genius.
Twilight: Varney the Vampire for the tween set. It's not overrated so much as too popular for those of us who would prefer not to notice it.

Here's a quick sampling from various internet sites that recommend skipping these:
The Catcher in the Rye
Moby Dick
The Great Gatsby
Waiting for Godot
The Stranger
Ulysses
Atlas Shrugged
The Da Vinci Code
Twilight"
That is an oddly-defined list with those last two on it. I wouldn't call either of them overrated as they are not highly rated in a critical sense at all. And I enjoyed Dan Brown's book, but it is just a beach read, nothing more.
I have only read two of the others. I think The Catcher in the Rye is a Great Book. I didn't really go for The Stranger, but I wouldn't call it overrated. It simply didn't click with me. That's okay.
For those of you who've asked - Here are the various internet sites I used to create the sampling of books the sites recommend skipping:
http://listverse.com/2009/02/09/top-1...
http://flavorwire.com/293260/10-epide...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07...
http://listverse.com/2009/02/09/top-1...
http://flavorwire.com/293260/10-epide...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07...




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That's true...Sometimes I'll re-read a book at a different point in life and be like "ohhhhh, now I get it!"