The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
I meant I found DeLillo a bore to read after a certain point.
Sarah wrote: "I couldn't even finish The Catcher In The Rye, as much as I wanted to see where it was going. I like Great Gatsby but imagine it is over-hyped. I was in middle school when Twilight was released and..."A lot of people say the same thing. Maybe I should re-read it, as I remember liking it when I was in High School a long time ago.
Gone girl was horrible-just plain horrible. Catch -22 was very bad and another bad one which was a great mini-series Sho Gun. I forced myself to get thru that one.
Like others on this thread, Rich, you mistake your opinion of a book with the intrinsic worth of the text. Catch-22 is not bad. You may like not like it, but it is loved by millions of readers. Is broccoli bad because you don't like it?
When I can't finish a book it is bad and this was bad
Maybe it's just not for you. You make yourself look foolish when you make claims like that. Macbeth is bad because I couldn't understand it and left during intermission. Moby Dick is bad because I'm not interested in whales. Beethoven is bad because his 9th symphony went on too long and I had to pee.
Michael, I mostly agree with you. Opinions should be earned. You should judge a book with a certain amount of seriousness, and not base your thoughts simply on a fleeting mood or a mere distaste for a subject. But let it also be said that there are many serious and intelligent and well-read people who reject all the works of art you name. George Bernard Shaw hated Shakespeare. So does Anne Tyler. T.S. Eliot thought Hamlet considerably less than perfect. Vladimir Nabokov thought Catch-22 was trash. The fact that millions of people like a book is no reason why anyone else should.
I'm not saying that Rich should like Catch-22, Rodney. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes. But to take a 55-year-old work of art that is beloved by people all over the world and label it "bad" is simple-minded and arrogant.
Anne Tyler doesn't like Shakespeare? Oh noes! Maybe I should rethink all I hold dear!
Rich wrote: "Gone girl was horrible-just plain horrible. Catch -22 was very bad and another bad one which was a great mini-series Sho Gun. I forced myself to get thru that one."I haven't read Gone Girl. I do remember enjoying Shogun when I read it shortly after seeing the mini-series, but that was an awful long time ago. Those two did get an awful lot of attention for a while, but I don't know if they've really been acclaimed enough to qualify as "most over-rated" books.
Catch-22, however, could. That is, it's been acclaimed well enough to qualify. Whether its qualities as a novel mean that acclaim makes it over-rated or not is the issue. It's also been quite a while since I read Catch-22, but I remember finding it quite funny in that dark, sardonic way. What was it you didn't like?
I thought it was very strange and I did 4 years in the navy lol. I could not even finish it-------it did nothing for me. I have a good sense of humor. Sho gun was pretty highly rated-forced myself thru that novel
Shogun came around at exactly the right time for that kind of novel. Japan was going through a big economic boom, and Americans were running around studying Japanese business methods and making half-assed attempts at learning the language. There was a late 70s/80s fascination with martial arts and such-like. It turned into something of a pop culture phenomenon because of that synchronicity. Of course, the particulars of why such a thing is a hit rather than any number of other books that came along at the same time are a mystery, but I think it probably would qualify as "most over-rated" for a period of time. I don't know how much it has withstood that test of time, though, so if we're comparing it to more lasting books the way folks have mentioned Moby Dick or The Great Gatsby then we'll have to wait and see, but I suspect it won't have that kind of impact.As for Catch-22 I think there's a similar argument to be made in that it was published in '61, at the beginning of a social and political shift in which the American participation in Vietnam figured prominently. So, we have Heller's novel interacting with real world soldiers quoted as saying, "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it," or Johnson saying, "We are not about to send American boys nine or ten thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves." That much deadly irony, in that context and at that scale, needs a novel to help people grasp it.
But Catch-22's worth is not merely based on when it was published. It's a book that will stand the test of time like Gatsby and Moby Dick. It's artfully written; it's funny and filled with great characters. It's as current now as it was when it was first published. To talk about Catch-22 in the same breath as Shogun is pointless.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "But Catch-22's worth is not merely based on when it was published. It's a book that will stand the test of time like Gatsby and Moby Dick. It's artfully written; it's funny and filled with great ch..."Catch-22 is far more than a product of its times. Some people just don't like satire, ever. But that doesn't make satire 'no good' or 'trendy,' etc. I remember too when Jane Smiley came out with her criticism of Huckleberry Finn as racist. Well, maybe; but a criticism like that is so reductive and overly simple. I have read and liked some Jane Smiley, but she is no Mark Twain (any more than Anne Tyler can be compared to Shakespeare).
I like satire, I just don't think the book was funny. It rambled on and I thought it was poorly written.
I'd say it's brilliantly written from the very first sentence...the fractured narrative may be tough for some readers, but there's nothing random about it, and it all comes together quite nicely by the end. The idea of Catch-22 is woven into the fabric of the novel in multiple ways both obvious and subtle. The multitudinous little details like the man in white, Yossarian claiming to see everything twice, the nurse in the lime green panties, Chief White Half-Oat, Major Major looking like Henry Fonda...it's all just frickin genius. And the way Heller constantly calls our attention to what a fucked-up place this thing called America is, simultaneously giving it to us as both comedy and tragedy, as both satire and not satire, and making it all work where you can somehow laugh and cry at the same time...I dunno, if you ask me it's a top-ten American novel of the 20th Century. And it keeps being truer than true, which is what all great literature does.
Karen wrote: "Michael wrote: "Maybe it's just not for you. You make yourself look foolish when you make claims like that. Macbeth is bad because I couldn't understand it and left during intermission. Moby Dick is bad because I'm not interested in whales. Beethoven is bad because his 9th symphony went on too long and I had to pee."'Lol! I would have held it in so as not to miss the 9th
If I hadn't left early, Karen, I never would have composed "Ode to a Urinal."
Petergiaquinta wrote: "I'd say it's brilliantly written from the very first sentence...the fractured narrative may be tough for some readers, but there's nothing random about it, and it all comes together quite nicely by..."I agree. Your detailed argument has encouraged me to re-read Catch-22.
One problem with this thread is the use of the word 'overrated' as a real criticism. And now I am reminded of "Meryl Streep . . . the overrated actress!" A book or artist is not overrated just because I don't like it/them or something it/they said. Criticism that isn't detailed and points to specific shortcomings is too easy. I appreciate readers who bother to analyze and discuss in detail how they find a work wanting; they don't just dismiss the work in question with a big, bland word like "overrated," or some clever absurdity. They share their thoughts and present examples.
bully for you---I did not enjoy it, poorly written , rambled, incoherent , boring and not very good.
Rich, I fully defend your God-given right as an American to hate books everyone else likes, but you're just describing your own experience - and that experience may be a reflection less of the book than of your own taste. For example, you call the book incoherent, which makes no sense to me at all. I do not find the book hard to understand or follow, and I feel certain a lot of other readers would not have difficulty in that regard. So it could be that this is a limitation on your part. Maybe it's a great book and you're just not the best reader for it.Personally, I reread Catch-22 a few years ago and still found it as impressive and funny as it was in high school. I'm not sure I'd call it a work of genius, but who can deny that it's an original - with a unique and lasting comic perspective on war and the way bureaucracies operate?
I think, that it is simply a matter of taste. I loved Catch 22 and Moby Dick, I hated MacBeth but then I am Scot's and the real MacBeth was a very good King, as far as monarch's of the time, go. Shakespeare did a great deal of "disrespecting" in that one. But then I am sure that some of the books that others have read and enjoyed I hated. I detest everything that I have read of Jane Austen for example, they are well written but are dull, in my humble opinion.I remember reading Hyperion by Dan Simmons a few years ago and thought it one of the best books written but everyone I recommended it to found it dull. It really just comes down to your own personal taste. I like tales about sailing, whaling, coastal towns but I grew up in a fishing village and worked on the fishing boats. To someone from greater London those tales would probably be akin to science fiction and/or fantasy such as tales from the cosmopolitan area seem similar to me. Everything in life affects what we enjoy or do not. Just personal taste.
Kallie wrote: "Catch-22 is far more than a product of its times."Fair enough. It is very much the product of its time, though. That is, it worked very well as a metaphor for what people were seeing around them, and that inspired a similar set of dynamics. M*A*S*H (the books, the movie, the TV series) owes a direct debt to Catch-22, for instance. And there's probably a whole line of thematic art that relates directly to that kind of thing. That Three Kings movie is probably a direct descendant. So, at the very least, Catch-22 has withstood the test of time better than Shogun.
Kallie wrote: "Some people just don't like satire, ever. But that doesn't make satire 'no good' or 'trendy,' etc. I remember too when Jane Smiley came out with her criticism of Huckleberry Finn as racist. Well, maybe; but a criticism like that is so reductive and overly simple. I have read and liked some Jane Smiley, but she is no Mark Twain (any more than Anne Tyler can be compared to Shakespeare)."
Satire does seem to unsettle a lot of folks for some reason. I suppose that's because having one's assumptions questioned is uncomfortable for many people, so having it done with wit and comedy is all the more disturbing. It's shocking to discover one's core beliefs might be laughable.
I did not enjoy the novel and I am not alone -it does not get a 5 star rating. I enjoy satire , I jus t thought it was a poorly written novel and highly over -rated.
Rich wrote: "I did not enjoy the novel and I am not alone -it does not get a 5 star rating. I enjoy satire , I jus t thought it was a poorly written novel and highly over -rated."As has been pointed out, you have every right to that opinion. However, without some sort of support that opinion doesn't count for much. For instance, your assertion that the book is poorly written needs to be substantiated with some sort of citation from the book, otherwise it has little merit.
Easily 2oo pages to long and I don't mind long novels, very repetitive, not that funny and the dialogue does not hold up well. These are the other reason why I did not enjoy it-hope that clears things up.
I don't have to cite anything it is my opinion. not going for my MBA on this opinion.
Rich wrote: "I don't have to cite anything it is my opinion. not going for my MBA on this opinion."Nope, you don't have to. This is, however, a site dedicated to discussing books, and if you're not interested in doing that then why should anyone care what your opinion is?
An MBA is for business, BTW. I don't think Catch-22 is required reading for that kind of degree. Probably should be, though....
To be fair to Rich, the question posed at the outset was: Which books do you think are overrated? As the thread progressed, some of us have become curious as to how readers make such judgments. But Rich is not obliged to satisfy our curiosity.
I have no desire to read it again to find my citations lol
Anyone like to discuss my "Ode to a Urinal" or must I start a new thread?
Rich wrote: "I have no desire to read it again to find my citations lol"Hokay then. Good luck to you.
Gary is onto something there...Catch-22 should be required reading for MBAs, as well as aspiring executives and administrators in all spheres, both public and private. Unfortunately, I'm not sure the breed of individual who yearns for a career of bossing others around in bureaucracies big and small would find the novel easy going. Sadly, satire is mostly lost on these kinds of folks, but since the bulk of their coursework in pursuit of that idiotic endorsement or certificate granting them access to the corner office or the executive washroom or the chair at the head of the table is mostly just tomfoolery, they might as well read a good book while they're at it, even if they don't get it.
The Ode touches on pressing topical issues. For instance: Can The Donald have his urinal cake and eat it too?
Also, keep in mind that the world has changed since Catch 22. There is nothing in that book that is more absurd than America in 2017.
Rodney wrote: "Also, keep in mind that the world has changed since Catch 22. There is nothing in that book that is more absurd than America in 2017."I was in a restaurant last year. Two women are complaining in the booth next to the one I was in. Loudly. I honestly couldn't tell you what it was about. They were so loud that it all kind of blended together like whalesong or road traffic. Anyway, one of them suddenly hits on the perfect metaphor to describe the situation:
"It's a Catch Twenty Three!" she exclaimed. "A Catch Twenty Three!"
'Merica.
I didn't see it at the time, but it presaged 2017 pretty neatly.
Lieutenant Scheisskopf has some how become the most powerful man-baby in the world...
I have boring , not funny , repetitive too long and repetitive , not to funny , boring, repetitive and too long boring repetitive
Gary, It's the question a lot of writers now find themselves facing: how do you satirize a situation that is already patently absurd? Can't be easy. I think a lot of people are probably trying to come up with a fresh perspective. I have to wonder just what kind of results Fiction in the Age of Trump will finally yield.
Michael wrote: "If I hadn't left early, Karen, I never would have composed "Ode to a Urinal.""ROTFLOL!! I always pee BEFORE the concert
Michael wrote: "Anyone like to discuss my "Ode to a Urinal" or must I start a new thread?"Yes I would, considering you already wrote a funny book, this ode may also be funny.
Gary wrote: "Rich wrote: "I have no desire to read it again to find my citations lol"Hokay then. Good luck to you."
Surely you don't mean that
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Gary is onto something there...Catch-22 should be required reading for MBAs, as well as aspiring executives and administrators in all spheres, both public and private. Unfortunately, I'm not sure t..."Nothing like lumping people in to a presumptuous category, ha?
Gary wrote: Fair enough. It is very much the product of its time, though. That is, it worked very well as a metaphor for what people were seeing and that inspired a similar set of dynamics. M*A*S*H (the books, the movie, the TV series) owes a direct debt to Catch-22, for instance. I've wondered if Malaparte's 'The Skin' inspired 'Catch-22.' https://www.nyrb.com/products/the-ski...
Michael wrote: "The Ode touches on pressing topical issues. For instance: Can The Donald have his urinal cake and eat it too?"I'll have to think about it. Is this in the book?
For something to be over-rated, it must be rated highly, and nobody likes everything the same.But expectations matter. If you are expecting something to be great and it is merely good, you might be disappointed. Learning to accept it as being good isn't always easy.
I have read many books that were highly recommended by others on this forum. Some I have found great while other books were quickly abandoned. Very boring and very weird world if we all agreed on everything. Very interesting to read other viewpoints though.
Karen wrote: "Michael wrote: "The Ode touches on pressing topical issues. For instance: Can The Donald have his urinal cake and eat it too?"I'll have to think about it. Is this in the book?"
Love your wry remarks, Karen. And your pumpernickel ones, as well. What is this strange book of which you speak?
Hey, I just finished reading Cortazar's Axolotl and had previously read Francisco Goldman's Say Her Name which also references the famous Axolotls from Les Jardin des Plantes. Then I noticed Kallie's screen shot is an AXOLOTL! What gives?!
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
High Fidelity (other topics)
Less Than Zero (other topics)
Adam Bede (other topics)
The Scarlet Letter (other topics)
More...
George R.R. Martin (other topics)
Allan Bloom (other topics)
Richard Dawkins (other topics)
Richard Dawkins (other topics)
More...
Books mentioned in this topic
War and Peace (other topics)High Fidelity (other topics)
Less Than Zero (other topics)
Adam Bede (other topics)
The Scarlet Letter (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Leo Tolstoy (other topics)George R.R. Martin (other topics)
Allan Bloom (other topics)
Richard Dawkins (other topics)
Richard Dawkins (other topics)
More...
I didn't say he hadn't the right; just not the chops given his own limited talents. I'm not sure what you mean by "wheez."