The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
Geoffrey wrote: "Follow up to 469 by Anne HawnI recall Reading a short story by Oates back in the early 70´s. The story took place entirely inside a home, a kitchen I believe. There were two principals having a s..."
Wow. You have amazing recall.
Cosmic wrote: "Donna wrote: "Cosmic,Thank you for this! It speaks volumes and with understandable lines omitted, will make the walls of my middle school."
If you are a teacher you should check out John Taylor G..."
Thanks--I will let you know what I think!
I think a lot of people miss the point of Catcher in the Rye. Just like Salinger/Holden tells you very early in the book, "People never notice anything."
Cosmic wrote: "2014 Reading Challenge Group is going to make
the discussion book for March.https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
I w..."
I wonder how those 10 commandments stack up with this quote:
"I shall pass this way but once; any good that I can do or any kindness I can show to any human being; let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.”
Anne Hawn wrote: I wonder how those 10 commandments stack up with this quote....."I don't see that they contradict it. But I have noticed in my life at least that the people that the people that wanted to set they standard for me were not that themselves. They needed me to have "Jesus Love" to be their friends. (Had such a do gooder tell me this) because it was the kind of cross I would have to bear to be friends with their psychopathic personality. I kinda think that the people that are achieving such personal self care and interest and kindness toward themselves have the kind of reservoir of kindness to give to others. It is the people that live a template life to measure up and fit in that are soulless.
I believe you cannotgive to others what you don't give to yourself.
Cosmic wrote: "Donna wrote: "Cosmic,Thank you for this! It speaks volumes and with understandable lines omitted, will make the walls of my middle school."
If you are a teacher you should check out John Taylor G..."
I really enjoyed the information on John Taylor Gatto, I was a frustrated teacher and eventually found my way into teaching in the training schools for the Dept. of Corrections, which I loved. You can actually teach in that system because no one expects you to follow a curriculum, and no one expects you to succeed. To me, it is pure teaching, but you have to really be creative or the kids will get out of hand which a lot of teachers don't like.
My daughter and I have homeschooled her two children for 7 years. We began with my grandson in the 5th grade for many of the reason Gatto states. He has graduated this year. My granddaughter has always been homeschooled. We live in Florida which is very homeschool friendly. The kids are tested and they consistently score way above their age mates.
I make up all my own curriculum based classical literature and on what I know the kids will need in adulthood. For example, we just finished reading some Sherlock Holmes because I felt like my granddaughter wasn't using a creative enough approach to problem solving. She had to assess all the clues in "The Red-Headed League" and come up with the solution before reading the end. She loved it and we'll continue to do more. Best of all, she understood why she needed to learn that kind of thinking.
I absolutely agree with Gatto...even more since we have been homeschooling. Both kids agree that homeschool is better than public school. Both are well rounded, well socialized, polite and responsible kids. They have an exceptionally good relationship with their parents without so many of the conflicts you often see.
The things you don't see is that the are self starters, curious, love to learn, resourceful and best of all, they are themselves. They haven't been "rounded off."
Cosmic wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: I wonder how those 10 commandments stack up with this quote....."I don't see that they contradict it. But I have noticed in my life at least that the people that the people that..."
I was just saying that the list was incomplete. I'm glad I haven't run into many of the people you have. It would sour someone.
Monty J wrote: "Any literary dilettante can render an opinion about a masterpiece. But their opinion is worth little to nothing without some substance. "I will accept the mantle of dilettante. However I believe I have provided more substantive reasoning for the lack of personal impact of these works than you have for supporting your dismissive and insulting opposition.
I respect your opinion.
If you consider a person who does not tow the party line a dilettante, Im interested to hear what you call a person who refuses to substantively participate in a conversation of the personal impact of masterpieces (no one is arguing their renown- only their enjoyment) except to offer insult based the majority opinion?
I find your classification strategy ironic and amusing, but mostly counterintuitive.
Anne Hawn wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Donna wrote: "Cosmic,Thank you for this! It speaks volumes and with understandable lines omitted, will make the walls of my middle school."
If you are a teacher you should check ou..."
Cosmo,
I truly enjoyed reading your post. I have a very hard time sticking to the curriculum without side-bar addendums to each lesson. Additionally, in order to reach my kids, I have embraced the multiple intelligences to create well-rounded lessons. Sadly, I'm often criticized due to the fact students must know how to test and therefore my lessons should reflect true testing styles.
We know the reality is that if a student feels stupid, they will shut down and never perform come test time. We also know that if a student learns with his/her learning style, true knowledge can be transferred to a purely linguistic assessment.
Bottom line, I hope each day my kids leave math reluctantly and make me late for my next class. I hope they drag their heels from my room and laugh while they work. I hope they argue and fight each other over solving problems and discussing logic and reason. Of course it doesn't happen as often as I like, but it is my goal and is often reached.
Your grandchildren are so lucky to be given the opportunity to truly learn. Teaching today doesn't consider being well-read a necessary achievement. Instead it values the ability to answer a question regarding a sample of a text. This shouldn't be the soul measure of unique, impressive, sensitive, changing, developing,and hopeful students.
Learning should be an endeavor, a journey, and a passion. I am sure your grandchildren will continue to be life learners as they bring the lessons you are teaching them into everything they do in life.
Donna said, Bottom line, I hope each day my kids leave math reluctantly and make me late for my next class. I hope they drag their heels from my room and laugh while they work. I hope they argue and fight each other over solving problems and discussing logic and reason. Of course it doesn't happen as often as I like, but it is my goal and is often reached. I hope they do to. I think math is hard to get excited about because in class you don't really use it. My oldest son taught himself math and higher math through programming and a game called Gary's Mod. They say the latter isn't as good as they took the kids programs and stream lined them into the game so there is nothing to figure out. Sewing is also go for learning math and cooking.
But the way I learned it, out of textbooks...well I remember saying to my classmates that I couldn't see how this was going to help me in the outside world. Then I got a fortune cookie,I guess I am lucky, that helped me understand why I felt that way. It said, "Knowing without doing is the same as not knowing."
We have been brainwashed into believing that a test score is evidence that something was learned. That something of value was taught. That our children are not wasting their time. But when they get out of school...
Well have you had a conversation with a 17 or 18 year old? Are you impressed by the many subjects that they can converse about?
There was a teacher that suggested that people write down all the things that they knew something about well enough to have a discussion with someone that was also very knowledgeable about said subject.
Now beside each area or subject matter check of the ones that you learned in school.
Now check of the ones that you learned in high school. Not during your high school years but we're taught in school.
That is your education. That's the test. Now where did you really get your education from?
The problem with school is that it monopolies all of a child's time. They don't just want your 7-4 (including the bus ride) they want your weekend and your family time. And in the end what do you get...more school only this time because they made sure you couldn't do anything, you get to be a debt slave. BRAVE NEW WORLD
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x_YLy6yZeaw
I don't see enough children with hobbies or enough parents with them either. And values and education are really caught not taught.
Again, your words are so true. I think you would appreciate the fact that I assign a 10 minute homework assignment to allow the students to struggle. I know with myself, from struggle I build understanding. So away from school, apart from people nearby to give help and directions, I believe all students should have alone time to see what they can do on their own two feet. But that is it. On Fridays, some student will ask if there is homework and everyone answers that I don't give homework on Fridays or holidays because that should be time spent with your family. If I can't get my job done with the hours I have a child, then there are other systems in place to correct the issue other than burying a student in work, making them hate math and school that much more.
But what do I know? I'm only a teacher ;)
Math is the reason we started homeschooling my grandson in the 5th grade! The math teachers in our schools are totally frustrated. They have to cover everything on the FCAT which means teaching as if knowledge was buckshot. One day fractions, one day prime numbers, one day division. They tell the parents to send their kids to school even when they are sick because they will get behind and never catch up. Because there is algebra on the test, they start it in first grade...before kids know basic math facts and before they can think abstractly. There is no progression and no mastery. This is NOT the teacher's fault.Tests are designed to test the brightest student who takes the test, so there are naturally questions on the test that average kids don't know. Politicians think if it is on the test, the kids have to learn it even if it goes against learning theory.
The last straw was a sequence question that my grandson couldn't answer, his mother couldn't figure out and his grandmother (me), a teacher, couldn't figure out. His father, after listening to all the things we knew didn't work, finally got it. We spent over 5 hours on a question that wasn't even extra credit. The solution was something I learned in high school algebra. That was only one question. He had about 20. What kind of family time is that? My grandson was in tears...which he usually was when he did math homework.
My hat is off to math teachers. Politicians have made math a nightmare and most of the kids hate it. Actually that goes for all classroom teachers. I've been there. It is no wonder so many give up. The fact that there are still good math teachers is a miracle.
The Language Arts are marginally better. After all the politically correct stories are in the readers, there is little room for classics and many won't make the cut because they might offend someone. Try teaching books and stories by Mark Twain, or Rudyard Kipling or even Lewis Carroll.
I think you are doing a fantastic job! Donna I think it is the system that is designed to fail us.I think to get this thread a little back on topic I would like to talk about how this relates to The Catcher In The Rye as I interpret it. And why I think everyone should reread it with new eyes.
Holden Caulfield mentions two ways that people are conditioned and taught to play the "game". The first is a "box" called cinema or theater. This was also how the first dramatist, the Greeks, chose to change public opinion. The second "box" is school. Penney Prep was an all boys prep school. There were no girls there. It was special. There you learned how to jump over obstacles that other like women were bound by. In 1950 there probably weren't any colored people there either. In fact what there was at Pencey was crooks. Page 4. Quite a few guys came from these very wealthy families, but it was full of crooks anyway. The more expensive a school is the more crooks it has,- I'm not kidding.
Anyway the book is a passage through this world that these crooks and prostitutes, like Holden's brother set up so that they can ultimately win at the end.
Phoebe (Holden's sister) gave Holden her Christmas money. They walk through the financial district of Manhattan and end up at the merry-go-round. Holden asks her if she wants to ride. She says yes so he gives her her money to buy a ticket. She gets on the merry-go-round and walks around it to pick out her horse. Her house is not like the horse that they show on the ad of Pencey Prep. Her horse is a beat-up-looking old horse...or a dead beat horse. They start the merry-go-round. And the music that is playing is this
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WbQuYgPrM0k
Of coarse to play it just the way it was on the carousel you must imagine it being played at a 78 speed. Funny huh?
What is funny is watching all the innocent children reaching for the GOLD RING.
"All the kids kept trying to grab for the GOLD RING, so was old Phoebe, and I was sort of afraid she'd fall off the goddam horse, but I didn't say anything or do anything. The thing with kids is, if they want to grab for the ring, you have to let them do it, and not say anything. If they fall off, they fall off, but it's bad if you say anything to them."
What I think Salinger point is that we are set up to be consumers and become manipulated either to go to war or to put our labor at risk in markets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_YLy6...
What is amazing is I was talking to a 15 year old this weekend and he said that his class just finished reading this book. I asked him if his teacher played this song and he told me "NO". I cannot imagine that you could teach this scene without playing the song and going the same meaning. Can you? What is pathetic is this school is suppose to be 8th in the nation.
So please if you know someone is reading this book play SMOKE GETS IN YOUR EYES.
Here are the words:
http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/hearts...
I have the good fortune to live in southern Mexico and teach at a university program for future teachers of languages, ie. English, French and Maya. This semester I hit the jackpot and the boss gave me the Survey Literature course, my first time ever. The course is always offered in the 6th semester (3rd year) and I had always been restricted to teaching only seniors, being the only English native speaker.I devised the course totally from scratch. I´ve got readings beginning with the easiest running right up to the classics. The first two weeks were spent on essays/stories from CHICKEN SOUP FOR THE SOUL, which a minority of my Mexican students were familiar with and are presently doing American tall tales, Paul Bunyan and Brer Rabbit.
We´re continuing with Susan Cisneros, a Mexican American author, Alvarez and other writers of Mexican culture in Mexico. (Angela Mastretta from Mexico City).
There will be no novels at all. I want to expose as many authors to my students hoping they will get excited about some of them and decide to read other material from their favorites. Today I had my first success after passing around the CHICKEN SOUP book and one student asked to borrow it. Yes....success....and I didn´t have to prompt her.
Among others I have included SNOW by Alvarez about a Young Hispanic girl´s first year in a NYC catholic school and Ray Bradbury´s I SEE YOU NEVER about a Mexican Factory worker in CA under the bracero work program who stays longer than his visa allows and is exiled back to MX
Geoffrey wrote: "I have the good fortune to live in southern Mexico and teach at a university program for future teachers of languages, ie. English, French and Maya. This semester I hit the jackpot and the boss gav..."I love hearing your enthusiasm! Charlotte MasonCharlotte Mason who wrote one of the first homeschool series at the end of the 1800's called these types of books/stories Living Books. She would have referred to anything that only presented facts but did not inspire as Twaddle.
I love Uncle Remus...or the stories of Brer Rabbit.
This is a great idea! I have been reading more fairytales. And what you are doing reminds me of a group on 2014 Reading Challenge called Strings...where you read books that connect with the book you just read in what ever way it inspires you.
Maria wrote: "Which books do you think are overrated? Here's a quick sampling from various internet sites that recommend skipping these:
The Catcher in the Rye
Moby Dick
The Great Gatsby
Waiting for Godot
The..."
The Da Vinci Code for sure! Rule of Four much better! Way off on Catcher in the Rye! And to Paula - wrong about Stieg Larson series - those are great!
Moby Dick and Ulysses are not overrated, but you can certainly have the rest of the list!
Paula wrote: "If you consider a person who does not tow the party line a dilettante."That is a distortion of what I said.
I can't see how you inferred that from what I wrote. What dictionary are you using? The term has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing; it's about a superficial level of interest in a subject.
There is nothing wrong with disagreement. What concerns me is people coming to a discussion forum and simply saying "I didn't like it." without saying why or what they didn't like. A dilettante doesn't typically possess enough knowledge about a topic to back up his or her opinion. This is a discussion forum, not a survey.
"Im interested to hear what you call a person who refuses to substantively participate in a conversation of the personal impact of masterpieces (no one is arguing their renown- only their enjoyment) except to offer insult based the majority opinion?"
It strikes me that you are going to a lot of trouble to feel insulted. If you are not a dilettante my comment doesn't apply to you. If it doesn't apply, then don't reply is if it did. If it does, and you want to feel insulted, that's your prerogative.
The majority opinion, in this particular case, is backed up by many who have invested a lot of energy in understanding the book. Hundreds of hours in some cases. Some have read the book several times and read biographies of the author and researched the setting and historical accuracy of the book. For someone with only a casual interest to come here make such a casual comment is disrespectful to them. There's your insult.
It is fine to have a minority opinion, but if you want us to respect it you need to provide some substance to back it up.
Mexicans respond strongly to tales of suspense and terror. Here in southern Mexico, there are stories of Ixtabay, the seductress of inebriated men wandering in the forests after dark who kills those who succumbs to her charms. Then there are the CabraChupas, (goatsuckers) who slaughter animals at night and suck out their blood. There are aluxes, similar to Irish leprechauns, diminutive in stature, tricksters, who occasionally get nasty towards people. There are a host of others but these are the principals of suspenseful folktales. When visiting local videostores, the most plentiful DVDs are comedies and terror. The SAW series are also extremely popular here and I sometimes have to battle my students to shut the films off when my classes begin. (They have a free period before mine).The very first student who revealed to me his Reading preference was an avid fan of Poe. So all in all, I will do well when they get to read THE RAVEN and THE TELLTALE HEART. Grisly kids!
Geoffrey wrote: "Mexicans respond strongly to tales of suspense and terror. Here in southern Mexico, there are stories of Ixtabay, the seductress of inebriated men wandering in the forests after dark who kills thos..."I had to look up Ixtabay. What is interesting is that in Black Elk Speaks he has a similar story that he tells. It is close to the third chapter as I remember...meaning it is in front of the book.
How does this shape their view of gender I wonder?
Xtabay literally means 'Female Ensnarer' and can refer either to a Mesoamerican demon who seduces and kills or a female deity of the hunt, along with the male Ah Tabay. The Xtabay is not to be confused with Ixtab, a 16th-century Yucatan goddess of suicides.
A legend of Xtabay (the female demon) tells of two women who lived in a village in the Yucatán Peninsula. One was named Xkeban (which means "sinner", "bad woman" or "one who practices illicit love"); the other was Utz-Colel (a good, decent woman).
People said Xkeban was beautiful, but sick with lust, and gave her favors to every man who asked her. Utz-Colel was virtuous and honest, as well as beautiful and austere. Xkeban was humble; she had a good heart and kindly helped the poor, sick and homeless, and also the animals abandoned for being considered useless, by giving up the jewellery and fine clothes she got from her lovers. She was not a haughty woman, nor did she insult other villagers. Xkeban humbly received the humiliations from the people of her village. On the other hand, Utz-Colel was cold, full of pride, harsh of heart and easily disgusted by the poor.[1]
One day, Xkeban was not seen anymore. Days passed and a fine delicate perfume was smelled all over the village. People found it came from the house of Xkeban who had died there, protected only by the animals who stood watch around her, fending off the flies.
Utz-Colel argued it wasn't possible, that the perfume couldn't be that of such a vile and corrupt body; nothing but decay and stench could come out of her. She argued that had to be bad spirits or demons still trying to tempt men. "If that is the odor of a dead prostitute, mine shall be much more fragrant when I die", she said.[2]
A few people buried Xkeban, feeling pity for her. The next day, her grave was covered with beautiful flowers of a delicate perfume. The flowers growing on Xkeban's grave were named Xtabentún.
When Utz-Colel died, a virgin, the entire village attended her funeral; they remembered her virtue and honesty. To the amazement of the crowd, an intolerable stench came out from her grave; the Tzacam, a spiny cactus flower with a disagreeable odor, grew there.
Utz-Colel, converted into a Tzacam flower reflected, envious, on what had happened to Xkeban and she came to the conclusion that she had fared so well after death because her sins had been "sins of love". Thus, she decided to imitate Xkeban's promiscuity, without realizing that it was Xkeban's good heart and her generous and natural attraction to love-making that had sealed her fate. Thus, Utz-Colel called on evil spirits that helped her return to the world whenever she wanted to, to seduce men with nefarious love, since her hard heart had not room for any other kind of love. This is how Utz-Colel became the X'tabay, who awaits men under the ceiba tree combing her long, beautiful hair with the spiny needles of the Tzacam. When she seduces wayward men, she kills them in an infernal act of love-making.[3
Genius Child Kicked Out Of School For “Not Being Able To Learn” Could Win Nobel Peace PrizeChetan Rana February 2
- See more at: http://awescience.com/2014/02/26/geni...
Geoffrey wrote: "Mexicans respond strongly to tales of suspense and terror. Here in southern Mexico, there are stories of Ixtabay, the seductress of inebriated men wandering in the forests after dark who kills thos..."Indeed we do. I believe it goes back to ours being a culture of conquest and juxtaposition: we are molded by western civilization, but deep down know there is "another thing" lurking in our background; a heavily spiritual ancestral culture which constitutes fertile ground for ghost/spectre stories. Just look at the masterful way Juan Rulfo handled these subjects.
Thanks CosmicI have Heard told the story of Ixtbay by a neighbor who gave me the short versión. I have come across the tales in at least 6 different texts/picture books/tales of mystery and yours is the most complete versión.
By the way, Xtabentun is also a liquour, somewhat flavored like creme de menthe and is readily available alongside the tequila in the supermarkets. It is my favorite drink and that of many expatriots living here in MX. Sorry my Mexican friends, but we do prefer it to DON PEDRO.
Thanks Daniel
I am doing research on exactly that. I have surveyed my students as to their Reading preferences and have discovered exactly that. As for Juan Rulfo, speaking about serendipity, I am currently Reading Pedro Paramo and am hardpressed to identify the scenes in which the dead are living. He is a masterful writer and it is unfortunate we "gringoes" don´t read more Hispanic writers other than Marquez and Allende.
Geoffrey wrote: "...it is unfortunate we "gringoes" don´t read more Hispanic writers other than Marquez and Allende."I so agree with you. In the past, opportunities to find great authors relied on luck, recommendations, and popularity. Now we have the ability to branch out from our little worlds and embrace authors that have existed outside our scope.
This is the beauty of Goodreads. Instead of Allende being a one time find, a rare and isolated gift, now I have a resource to answer, 'Who should I read next?'
I know why the caged bird sings50 shades of grey
the great gatsby
pride and prejudice
Charles Dickens's Bleak House, it is so slow moving. I expected better from Dickens.
Books I think are overrated:1) Twilight
2) The Divergent Series (mediocre at best)
3) John Green books (I quite like them--maybe even a lot! But I don't think they're as amazingly perfect as a lot of teenagers make them out to be.)
4) Catcher in the Rye (I know a lot of people love this book, but.... I kind of hated it. Didn't relate to it at all.)
5) The Five People You Meet in Heaven--(vaguely enjoyable. The kind of book you read on the bus ride to and from work. It was interesting, but wasn't as good as it could have been.)
I know there are more but I can't think of them. I also want to say that Gabriel Garcia Marquez is overrated, but have only read about 5 or 6 of his short stories, I'm not sure I'm qualified to have that opinion. That being said, I really think his writing style is overrated.
"We will never be a nation of writers until we are a nation of readers" - Steven Spielberg
DonnaI have read Vargas-Llosa and recommend THE STORYTELLER and the BAD GIRL. The latter ends on a very graphic note and would caution those squeamish souls against Reading it.
I tried to read a novel by Angela Mastretta of Mexico City but it was either badly translated or just plain bad. I had come across her in the short story AUNT CONCHA ESPERZA which is a gem.
Catcher in the Rye is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay overrated
Mastretta is not that great, but she's easy to read, which works great for our culture, sadly. There's a bunch of good authors working today in Latin America, luckily. I don't know whether his works are translated to English, but Yuri Herrera is doing some very interesting stuff. Also David Toscana, Juan Gabriel Vázquez, Xavier Velasco (sometimes), Santiago Roncagliolo (also sometimes).As for the classics, everyone should check out Rulfo, Julio Cortázar's short stories, José Donoso's "The Obscene Bird of Night", José Emilio Pacheco's poetry...
I am glad that someone finally mentioned Cortázar. I find him, Chekhov and Hemingway the best SS writers.The original story BLOWUP is in the ss collection of his and is radically different from the movie. There´s also a ss AXOXTL that is literally mindblowing. And the story about all the cars stalled outside the city and everyone is waiting for some events to happen to free them up is truly profound.
I have never read his novel HOPSCOTCH but will eventually someday. He is one of the most underrated of all the superwriters of the 20th century and should be placed on a pedestal of equal stature as MANN, KAFKA, DOSTEYVSKI.
Thanks for the tips, Daniel, I will certainly check out Jose Donoso´s book
I don't think Cather in the Rye is overrated per se, but it definitely hasn't aged well. And fair enough, perhaps that is a sign of good art, timelessness. I think anything by Ayn Rand is overrated, although in her defense, few people who promote her books have actually read them...
Of course L Ron Hubbard's books are also overrated. Unless you are interested in the anatomy of a scam, in which case they are very relevant. Hubbard's popularity shows that, similar to Rand, if you can attach religious significance to your book, you can massively increase your readership.
Well, using my definition of overrated, in that a book may be good but doesn't live up to the hype associated with it then I agree with the list accept for Moby Dick and with a caveat The Stranger. I read The Stranger in High School in French and I loved it. It loses too much in translation and therefore IMHO the English version is overrated. Twilight is not only overrated it is not good literature. It is pulp fiction and doesn't belong on any list with these other books.
The catcher in the ryeA bend in the river
The Sun also rises
The God of Small things
The Alchemist, to an extent
I hope those of you that thought The Catcher In The Rye was overrated will give it give it a second look at my study group: Breaking The Code To The Catcher In The Rye.https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
Please play the song and think about Phoebe being on the carousel reaching for the GOLD RING.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbQuYg...
Imagine it playing a little fast. I think even in this you should see that the book is an allegory about THE GAME. For women then it wasn't that fair. It still isn't, but now more of us are in the web.
Daniel wrote: "Mastretta is not that great, but she's easy to read, which works great for our culture, sadly. There's a bunch of good authors working today in Latin America, luckily. I don't know whether his work..."Thanks for the reminders and recommendations. I also liked Manuel Puig, Bolano's The Savage Detectives, Nicanor Parra's Anti-poems, and Mutis' Maqroll.
Twilight is, of course, a very skippable book. But the Great Gatsby and The Catcher in the Rye are two of my favorite books of all time, and must-reads in my opinion!
Geoffrey wrote: "DonnaI have read Vargas-Llosa and recommend THE STORYTELLER and the BAD GIRL. The latter ends on a very graphic note and would caution those squeamish souls against Reading it.
I tried to read a ..."
I've only read one by Vargas-Llosa, The Dream of the Celt, but I thoroughly enjoyed it and I think it's very much underrated!
Any book by Alexander Dumas or Jules Verne, All the King's Men (talk about filler), Black Beauty (poor sentences), A Separate Peace (conflict doesn't appear until half way through), The Handmaid's Tale (transparent hand of a bigoted author), and Mrs. Dalloway (what a bore).
Lance wrote: "Any book by Alexander Dumas or Jules Verne, All the King's Men (talk about filler), Black Beauty (poor sentences), A Separate Peace (conflict doesn't appear until half way through), The Handmaid's ..."omg Mrs. Dalloway was such a bore! I completely forgot about that book. I am so glad someone mentioned it!
Maria wrote: "The one I've read most recently that I'd put at the top of a list of overrated books is Death in Venice. Although I know this book is considered a classic steeped in allegory, I can't get past the ..."My Incredibly Short Review of that book is simply: "_Slow_ Death in Venice"!
Maria wrote: "Which books do you think are overrated? Here's a quick sampling from various internet sites that recommend skipping these:
The Catcher in the Rye
Moby Dick
The Great Gatsby
Waiting for Godot
The..."
Not sure I'd include "The Great Gatsby," and I'd feel guilty including "Moby Dick." But still...
The Da Vinci Code pops into my mind as a recent dud. People I know who are religious seemed to get a lot more out of it than I did.
Bill wrote: "Maria wrote: "Which books do you think are overrated? "
Such a list says more about the person responding than the books.
Nineteen million people bought Fifty Shades of Grey in over fifty countries. Anthropologists could have a consuming project interpreting why a modern society would be interested enough in kinky sex to spend money for such tripe when the world's major problems (hunger, overpopulation, environment,etc.) need so much attention.
These same people might think The Catcher in the Rye is overrated. Which could mean they can't connect with serious issues of life like a mentally ill kid spinning out of control.
It's not the book that's being rated; it's the reader.
I agree with Monty J that the reader's response to a classic book is a window into that person's mind. Some people want to be challenged, others may want to be entertained, others want to be educated. Perhaps we should rate a classic book based on certain qualities: 1) How good is the writing? 1-5 stars
2) How entertaining is the story? 1-5 stars
3) How educational is the book? 1-5 stars
4) How influential is the book? 1-5 stars
5) How new/unique/cutting edge? 1-5 stars
For example, Atlas Shrugged is poorly written, barely entertaining but has become quite influential and was uniquely edgy when it was first published. To Kill A Mockingbird is well written, very entertaining, quite instructional with a good social message, fairly influential and cutting edge for its time.
Another good definition for an appropriately rated classic book: you can't wait until your children/spouse/friends read it so you can discuss it and share it with them.
The odd thing I found about Atlas Shrugged was that despite the fact that the Libertarian economic philosophy and ideology was absurd on its face and constantly contradicted itself, it was such a riveting read from a plot and character point of view that I could not put it down. So, while it's certainly overrated as economic philosophy, it's still outstanding literature.__And let me take a stand for Waiting for Godot. I read or watched the play 5 times since I was 12, but it was only after I studied Marxism in college that I finally realized that the characters each represented certain "classes" of society. It was a parody of the corrupt materialism of all of them. Now I love it.
I hated Atlas Shrugged on just about every level.
Vanessa Eden wrote: omg Mrs. Dalloway was such a bore! I completely forgot about that book. I am so glad someone mentioned it! "
"omg," not the least boring to me: unforgettable characters time and place, brilliant use of p.o.v., at which many contemporary writers are so lame. They should study other, better writers and their works, i.e. Mrs. Dalloway.
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Thank you for this! It speaks volumes and with understandable lines omitted, will make the walls of my middle school."
If you are a teacher you should check out John Taylor Gatto's youtube videos and books. Even if you aren't and you are just a thinker, he is incredibly brilliant and refreshing
http://johntaylorgatto.com/
http://www.bing.com/search?q=john+Tay...
I went to his workshop in 1996. He worked in New York art a school for kids that weren't making it in a traditional school seeing, but was still in the public school system. He challenged the system till he wrote a letter to the editor of the New York Times called "I Quit, I think"
You can read it here:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underg...
This is also in his book called Dumbing Us Down.Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling
Keep inspiring children to think outside the "box".