Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
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Eric Muss-Barnes
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Do fellow authors freak you out?
I belong to an RWA group (romance writers of America)....I have a critique partner and another smaller group of writers. They work for me because they know the struggles you go through to get published. Most mainstream authors have writing buddies,The craft itself is done alone....but the craft needs nurturing and so fellow authors do the trick.
I belong to a small local writer's group as well, and I fully agree with Arabella. It helps to have author friends for feedback and support, and no one understands what an author goes through like another author.
One of my best friends is another GR author that I met through a group. We talk about writing among many other things, but our primary bond is a mutual love and appreciation for history. Since she is in the UK and I am in the USA, we often use our conversations to discuss politics (current and historical), culture, and so forth. So it can work out very nicely -- if you have something other than writing in common.
When you don't have something you love in common, however, I find that a lot of conversations with other authors feels like competition. I hate it when another author talks about how well s/he is selling and so forth. It feels like bragging to me.
There's also the issue of self promotion. A lot of authors come off as having a one track "buy my book" topic of conversation. Like any other reader, I prefer to discover books on my own; brazon self promotion is a huge turn off to me.
I think its good to interact with fellow authors. Afterall isn't that part of what goodreads is all about? I always try to interact with fellow authors who share similar genres or interests as I am sure others do as well. It's not bout selling to them its about getting to know people, getting to know your fellow authors.
Justin wrote: "I think its good to interact with fellow authors. Afterall isn't that part of what goodreads is all about? I always try to interact with fellow authors who share similar genres or interests as I am..."Exactly. The problem comes when someone decides that "friending" here on GR or another social media site equals an invitation for unhindered self promotion. It drives me crazy the number of "invites" I receive on GR (disguised as events) to buy a book. Seriously!
I don't consider something an "event" unless it happens in the real world. Such as "I will be at such and such public library for a Q & A." But every single "event" information (typically blanketing an entire group) is for some sort of online promo or just appears as a blatant advertisement.
That makes the groups unfriendly to me; I cannot tell you how many I've left because of it.
If you want to talk to other writers then talk to them. Don't spam them!
Interesting video, Eric. My answer to your question is: I don't, not in the real world.Excellent point about earning the "right" or "priviledge" of being reclusive, that's my goal (successful author recluse)... lol.
While I've learned some things by interacting with other writers on line, marketing and publishing remain my biggest weaknesses, and because they are recognizable weaknesses, I avoid them. Self-destructive behavior? Probably...
It's quite nice associating with other people who have 'imaginary friends' and a whole other life that even my intimate family members worry about acknowledging in case it 'tips me over the edge'. I tend to join groups or sites that don't permit spamming too. I admit that I stupidly spammed once or twice in the early days, but it's actually not ok and I think you realise the futility of it when someone thumps their book onto your page with a loud 'ta da' and wants you to clap instead of delete. I haven't had any peer reviews yet though and they make me nervous.
I have 'met' some lovely fellow authors online, but barely know any in the real world. None of my family or close friends are writers.
I've met some good people here and on FB, Twitter etc but most of my writing friends are the flesh and blood type. We rarely talk about writing though!
Storm wrote: "I've met some good people here and on FB, Twitter etc but most of my writing friends are the flesh and blood type. We rarely talk about writing though!"Writing can be a touchy subject when you talk to another writer. For each of us, our books are our babies and we are naturally very protective of them. So when a friend or acquaintance (virtual or in person) doesn't share our view that our work is the most perfect and appealing story ever, it can be stressful -- or worse.
So I find that an extra measure of tact can be required if the subject comes to writing or one's book. How do you tell an author acquaintance that there grammar is clumsy or that a section (or the entire book) falls flat? Or that you don't like the book/section/chapter? I never want to hurt anyone's feelings, least of all someone I spend time with socially.
We are all better editors towards others' works than we are ourselves. That's great when dealing with strangers who are asking for feedback; tougher with friends.
There are definitely some impressive authors out there - I feel like talking to them inspires me often. I actually recently got inspired to write a second book!www.niharsuthar.com
Laurel wrote: "Storm wrote: "I've met some good people here and on FB, Twitter etc but most of my writing friends are the flesh and blood type. We rarely talk about writing though!"Writing can be a touchy subj..."
Why does pointing out a concern you have with a friend's work pose a problem? Are authors so sensitive and/or egotistical that consturctive criticism 'hurts' them? This is one thing that has amazed me since I joined GR. So many people who won't be honest out of fear/worry that the other person will be offended. If a person is offended because you point out a flaw, maybe that person isn't really a 'friend'. Why wouldn't you tell a 'friend' that their grammar is clumsy or a section is jarring and laboured? I want my friends (writers or otherwise) to be honest with me, accepting that it's their opinion I'm receiving and I don't have to take what they say if I don't agree with it. However, if 2 or 3 friends point out the same thing, obviously there is an issue I have to look at. Also, I recognize they are pointing out possible flaws because they ARE my friends.
Ultimately, nobody likes to be criticized for something they have worked at, but it's unfortunate that people would rather allow a 'friend' to produce something that is clumsy/flat/laboured etc than give honest feedback. Just my two cents :-)
I guess I found this an odd question since I've been interacting with authors since I was young--I started attending writers conventions when I was nineteen and was fortunate to attend one of the last ones hosted by Marion Zimmer Bradley before she passed. I agree that it's good to interact with other writers. You learn a lot about what's happening in the business, find out about resources, and what to avoid. I've gained a ton of vital knowledge from writers like Dean Wesley Smith, Jane Fancher, and Kristine Kathryn Rusch, both in the real world and online. Loner type or not, writers can benefit by interacting.
However if I friend someone here on Goodreads and they start to bombard me with promotions, that's not a friend; that's a nuisance. And I'll happily defriend them.
Random addendum--it made me feel much better when Jane Fancher talked about her characters talking in her head. Mine do that too, so it's nice to know I'm not crazy. Or other writers are just as crazy, lol.
I don't know any writers in the real world. Online is the only connection I have to other writers. Sad but true.
D.L. wrote: "Laurel wrote: "Storm wrote: "I've met some good people here and on FB, Twitter etc but most of my writing friends are the flesh and blood type. We rarely talk about writing though!"Writing can b..."
When I needed someone to read my manuscript before sending final version in to the publisher...I asked 2 people I respected. They had knowledge of editing, and I knew I could trust them. Family and friends, (whom I love dearly) but they aren't very reliable in telling the truth. My two friends gave constructive advice. For ex. They wrote on the side lines, what are you trying to convey in this paragraph? This page seems vague, could you elaborate in chapter 3? I told my 2 friends that I thought of them as teachers, and I wanted to produce the best work possible. People are paying for this book, so I owe them the best possible read. My 2 friends are not in my inner circle of friends, but they are very trustworthy. I know when my husband tried to give advice I found it irritating so my suggestion is to pick someone who is not really close to you but who you respect! Hope that helps.
Laurel wrote: "It drives me crazy the number of "invites" I receive on GR (disguised as events) to buy a book. Seriously!"For some authors, selling a book IS an event.
K.T. wrote: "I haven't had any peer reviews yet though and they make me nervous."Have you ever been to the cinema with a film student?
Id love to interact meaningfully with fellow writers if i could but 90 percent of my friends dont read at all. To be honest, the majority of the writers ive met on this site are rather unpleasant. they're either too condescending (im an indie and the trad pubbed authors basically think im a congealing ball of shit) and so many of the authors i meet here are exclusively doing YA or PNR, two genres I want nothing to do with.
Laurel wrote: "So I find that an extra measure of tact can be required if the subject comes to writing or one's book. How do you tell an author acquaintance that there grammar is clumsy or that a section (or the entire book) falls flat? Or that you don't like the book/section/chapter? I never want to hurt anyone's feelings, least of all someone I spend time with socially.""Do you want a cuddle, or do you want critique?"
You don't have to be 'cruel' about it, but the only way we improve is when other people point out our flaws and leave it to us to ask for advice or figure it out ourselves. So, tell someone your reaction (bored me, grossed me out) and leave the solution to them, unless they ask you what they should do about it.
Sherri wrote: "I don't know any writers in the real world. Online is the only connection I have to other writers. Sad but true."I don't know if that's actually 'sad'. As I'm Dutch and write fiction in English, I don't have a lot of contact with Dutch writers. I mainly discuss writing online with authors, swapping ideas and scenes and commenting on them.
Recently, I signed up for MeetUps through MeetUp.com, where you can find people with similar interests in your hometown. I have to see how that works out, but I've been writing for more than twenty years and I don't have a single author friend I haven't met online.
social media means writers tend to gravitate towards other writers. I have started meeting them in real life and my social circle has changed radically in the last 2 years even though I am approaching 50 years of age.Mind you it would be nice if social media allowed writers to reach beyond fellow writers as well.
I also meant to say, temperamentally I may be a loner (typical only child) but the digital demands of writing means I have collaborated a lot with others in my work, from cover designers through to video makers. So it doesn't have to remain lonely.
I like other authors - I feel at last I can relate to people who are probably very much like me .. especially as I have to continually explain to people (non writers) why I like to be alone. And why that "alone" can last days, weeks or months .. And that I am fine in that state of being alone - in fact Very happy!
Eric wrote: "The nature of writing means many authors are "loner" types. Personally, I never socialize with writers.Babysteps on Goodreads is about the furthest I've gone. How about you? How many of you inter..."
I agree with you that writing is a solitary activity, at least for me.
Many years ago, I attended a writer's workshop with a tech writer friend, and the two of us couldn't stop giggling the whole time. That particular workshop was apparently focused on getting people to let go of their inhibitions enough to write, something I'm sure some of them needed. But frankly, it was goofy, touchy-feely and really embarrassing in its lack of sincerity. It was like a cult love bombing session for everyone, and clearly no one was going to get any real feedback from it except a lot of feel-goods and pay-to-attend-our-next-seminar vibes.
I've tended to avoid writers' groups and meetups. I find everyone there is all about showing off their own work and will yawn through presentations by anyone else. :-\ That's not sincere feedback, either, since it's not your work's lack of merit but other people's self-centeredness and rudeness that you're up against.
I worried a bit that GR was going to be more of the same, just like twitter, with everyone shouting their narcissism into the silence. I've been pleasantly surprised so far. I've seen lots of sincere questions and thoughtful answers to questions from a lot of interesting people.
Marc wrote: "Mind you it would be nice if social media allowed writers to reach beyond fellow writers as well."
I'm so glad you said this. While writers are also readers, we're primarily writers, and most of us are looking for ways to build our audience. So basically, using this as any kind of selling tool is like bakers using a site to sell to other bakers.
So that begs the question, how DO we reach more readers? But perhaps that's the stuff of a different thread.
There's just no surefire answer to the audience question. Just have to commit to this writing thing for the long term and build gradually I think. What works for some doesn't work for others. Not terribly enlightening I know, but after all the things I've tried, that's the conclusions I have!
I love hanging out with writers. As long as we talk about writing and not the endless nonsense about promotion and 'trad v indie publishing' and 'dead tree books (a particularly loathsome phrase) v e-books' or any of the other conversational dead ends that plague every Goodreads writing group I've ever seen.I'm lucky enough to know some very very awesome writers socially, and they're great people with whom I like to get drunk and talk nonsense, basically.
The problem with writing is that it is something that you really do have to do while you are alone. Dickens was able to write while hosting dinner parties -- he is the only author I have ever heard of who could do that. Also, if you are going to read anything, you nearly always do that by yourself. You cannot read a novel and have a conversation at the same time.Given that, if you spend time with other authors, you are by definition not writing or reading. Which means that it is hard to casually read, or write, with another author. You have to set it up in advance (here's my ms, read it when you get home; here's my email address, send me your novel) and that means that get-togethers tend to be not about the actual writing or reading. Many and many an hour have I spent with other writers, commiserating about lousy cover art of the Thor Power Tools decision.
Jordan wrote: "Eric wrote: "The nature of writing means many authors are "loner" types. Personally, I never socialize with writers.Babysteps on Goodreads is about the furthest I've gone. How about you? How many..."
"...everyone shouting their narcissism into the silence." is a terrific image. Thank you Jordan.
When I've attended writing workshops in a small group setting led by a professional writer, I've found feedback and comments to be helpful. The writers in those groups, overall, were genuine and committed to their craft.
Conversely, online or at Book Fairs, I've 'met' writers who talk only about themselves and how connected they are: twitter, FB, personal website, etc etc.. and while I applaud their 'go-get-'em' attitude, I don't resonate with a 24/7 plugged in mentality. Do these same writers read? By that, I mean do they stand on the shoulders of the giants who came before us? Or do they whip up a story, throw it online and then call themselves a writer? I guess that's a different entry.
Usually, when I'm out and about in 'cyberland' or a real time book event, my gut guides me into who is engaged in their craft/other writers, and who are not. I just focus on the ones who are.
The problem is that there are only 24 hours in a day. An hour spent on Twitter is an hour you are not writing. I am a writer, not a PR person, so in the final analysis I will spend time writing and not primping my web site.
Brenda wrote: "The problem is that there are only 24 hours in a day. An hour spent on Twitter is an hour you are not writing. I am a writer, not a PR person, so in the final analysis I will spend time writing and..."Very true. I've pretty much had to stop writing to handle my own publicity, in spite of having a publisher.
I was a press director and PR person for a presidential campaign some years ago, so I have a slight advantage there, but only slight. There's a thick wall between indie authors and small press authors and the (majority of the) readership who will only be exposed to and buy big press offerings.
We are where the music industry was, probably 5 or 10 years ago. The difference is, we can't just give our "recorded" work away and make our money off live performances the way musicians can. Now indie songwriters and performers can sell to a pretty large marketplace, so maybe we will get there someday, too.
Eric wrote: "The nature of writing means many authors are "loner" types. Personally, I never socialize with writers.Babysteps on Goodreads is about the furthest I've gone. How about you? How many of you inter..."
I am part of two writing groups, one of which is solely on-line. The other one is local, and we have periodic in-person get-togethers as well as interacting on-line.
D.L. wrote: "Why does pointing out a concern you have with a friend's work pose a problem? Are authors so sensitive and/or egotistical that consturctive criticism 'hurts' them?"To some people, it's as though you've called their baby ugly. I lost one friend after I read her historical fiction book and pointed out that, despite her claim, there was no king of England in 1878. I didn't think it was a problem to point out a major error in fact like that; she felt differently.
Sharon wrote: "D.L. wrote: "Why does pointing out a concern you have with a friend's work pose a problem? Are authors so sensitive and/or egotistical that consturctive criticism 'hurts' them?"To some people, it..."
Similar thing happened to me. I pointed out to a fellow writer that he referred to his female hero as "raven-haired" every single time he mentioned her, and he didn't speak to me again for ten years. :-\
I guess we can all learn from that and try to keep a sense of humor about our little habits and foibles. My partner pointed out to me that I used the word "weary" at least once in every chapter of an early draft of one book. I told him it must have been because I was tired. :-)
I interact with authors over the internet. I do have some friends and even family who are authors and I interact with them. It's nice to have sounding boards for ideas. It sounds weird, but I was kind of isolated up in Alaska for awhile, now I might be able to afford to go to some writing conferences and it makes me look forward to interacting with other authors, so no, it doesn't make me freak out. :D
I like to interact with fellow authors on line like here. Authors who blog on various topics i find more interesting than those who only post on his or her "much anticipated first novel." I avoid the drive by proclamations who believe the comments section is an Ad opportunity.
John that was you??!! I ran that guy over while I was tweeting my latest book blast. Took hours to clean the blood off my Benz.
I actually don't know any writers. I would like to meet some though, who knows what kind of insight they could provide.
Eric wrote: "The nature of writing means many authors are..."Only via Goodreads and Amazon do you discover the sheer creepiness of so many of these individuals. Howsoever nice, well-meaning, and nondescript they may be apart from their new careers as e-authors...in this hectic digital environment they come across like --well, 'predators'. Hungry for your glance; craving your attention. Desperate for the stroke of our fingers on the keys that ring them up their next sale, or help spread their name.
I can't fathom why they don't perceive this about themselves. Its like those cliche jokes about how pushy 'insurance-salesmen' and 'used-car salesmen' used to be. That's how e-book authors come across today.
Its not just that they barge into every 'group' or thread or conversation, on the faintest pretext. Which they do, in addition to sending unsolicited spam mail and IMs and PMs. Its anytime. Any opportunity. Any chat they happen to be participating in..can suddenly seque into name-dropping their novel.
Every few minutes, they're snaking their arms around our shoulders in a 'friendly uncle' manner and gently steering us over to the display-window of their amazing book. Uxoriously lisping oily words in our ear. Lulling us with price reductions, discounts, promos, and time-sensitive deals.
Frankly, should you ever examine at the book in question: its almost always completely raw and unpolished or else 'copycat formula' (paint-by-dots) genre-writing. Sci-Fi, romance, thriller, mystery. The last thing anyone actually ever *needs*. Sorry to be blunt but that's what I'm seeing. No reference to anyone in this thread or in this group; just citing a 'general' impression.
I'm glad you created this thread. Time to get this 'out in the open'.
I only know one writer outside of the internet and he's a bona fide mad scientist type. Great guy and great writer, but somewhat intense. He's not published anything major, because he's the kind of guy who'll spend all evening rewriting a single sentence.As for the internet ... yeah. It's pretty easy to decide within a handful of posts who I'd like to hang out with and who I wouldn't. There is a place for spam, be it obvious or insidious, and that's Twitter, haha.
My problem is less the writer-salesperson type, but the writer of the undernourished ego, those with no idea of what being a writer takes once your book is published - the ones who bite back at bad reviews, the ones who rant and rave in social media about unfairness or barriers against their work. Because they have little idea why they want to be a writer, what it means to them and how they evaluate that once their book is out, then they have no way of appreciating how they can be nourished. So a 1 star review gets blown into a major paranoid persecution, or the idiocy of a reader who fails to understand what they were trying to do, when they should be forever in the reader's debt that they spent their time and money on reading the book and if they didn't like it, either it was simply not to their taste, or perish the thought, the author did a lousy job writing.The reader is never wrong and the author I believe has no right to make demands of the reader beyond the words of the book.
Feliks and it isn't only online. My friend and I were at a booksigning event (multi group of authors) and this reallly creepy guy stopped at our table and WOULD NOT LEAVE. He kept on and on about trying to find some author (i do not believe exists) to pitch a story idea to. Totally weird, and uncomfortable.
omg that would be totally freaky! I think my husband would have kicked his a$$ lol.
I object to the whole question. We are no creepier than the hawkers at a carnival!
Most writers are a little strange - who wouldn't, having to mind all these strange voices in their head? - but I haven't met many writers IRL. Mainly because I write English suspense fiction in the Netherlands, where most people write in Dutch and have a low opinion on suspense and thriller books.My wife doesn't read 'fiction', she prefers non-fiction and biographies. So she hasn't read my books, although she knows what they're about. While some people consider that a disadvantage, I'm glad my wife is not reading my first drafts over my shoulder.
I've done online critique with other authors, but I warn them beforehand that I don't pull punches. My aim with critique is helping an author to improve their work. If my help is not appreciated, I won't help them anymore. I found plenty of authors who wish to improve by receiving criticism. If they want a pat on the head, they're asking the wrong person.
However, like I told in the 'real writer' topic, I'm pretty formidable in real life. I used to be a bouncer, so people tend to be wary to become confrontational. It tends to keep the freaks and crazies at bay.
I've signed up to join other writers at MeetUps in Amsterdam. I'm going to check out if I'll benefit from joining the group. If not, no harm done.
I can't help but feeling there's got to be another way, and maybe someday we'll all look back on this wild-and-woolly interval with embarrassed startlement. Someone has to put this genie back in its box.
Fellow authors don't freak me out any more than human beings in general. The unbridled self-promotion of indie authors which I discuss in my book which you should purchase without delay (kidding!) is no worse in my opinion than the promotions used by lawyers, MLM distributors, and pay day loan companies. On second thought... yeah! My fellow authors are freakin' me out, man!
I just think it is annoying when you are discussing a book in a thread and some jacka$$ pops up and says something like, " In my book SOME WORN OUT PLOT,..." and then tries to tie it into the conversation. It just irks me and yes its happened to me way more than once. JMO of course.
Babysteps on Goodreads is about the furthest I've gone. How about you? How many of you interact with fellow wordsmiths in the real world?
VIDEO VERSION:
WRITTEN VERSION:
Authorphobia