Tigana: Part Five: The Memory of a Flame and Epilogue

[Dara]

Discussion for Part Five and the epilogue (page 529 to 673).

Spoilers for the whole book are okay.

[Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town]

I'm curious how this is going to wrap up. Seems like not enough book left.

Baerd can't seem to keep himself under control and they nearly are found out twice. I'm not sure if this is because they are in the home stretch of their long term plan and he can't control himself or as a result of his spirit battle. (This might be part 4, I don't remember, so better safe than sorry)

Dianora decides to kill herself in a way she believes will mean Brandon's end, only to change her mind at the last minute.

[Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town]

Catriana decides to take extreme measures by killing a Bargosan and blaming the Egeians. Now war is on. The duke cuts his fingers in an attempt to save her from her post murder suicide.

This book really makes you think. He wouldn't do that for his son, but will for Catrina. And meanwhile the bound wizard ends up being the one who saves her.

Alessan finally realizes what Brandin hasn't. Some things aren't worth the cost. He's been hard to like at points of this book because of his devotion to restoring Tigana at any cost.

Brandin looks less awful as the book goes on, but the truth is that his son's death is his fault and not Tigana's. His vengeance is unwarranted, even if his grief is understandable.

[Mark]

I have always recommended tigana since I read it when it first come out as a must read book.

Tell the truth with this reread I have found how much more deeper and complicated this book is.

[Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town]

I enjoyed it, and the ending, but I didn't absolutely love it like most people seem to.

And the ending annoyed me initially because I forget the damn poem about seeing a riselka. I had to look it up:

"One man sees a riselka: his life forks there.
Two men see a riselka: one of them shall die.
Three men see a riselka: one is blessed, one forks, one shall die.
One woman sees a riselka: her path comes clear to her.
Two women see a riselka: one of them shall bear a child.
Three women see a riselka: one is blessed, one is clear, one shall bear a child."

So I guess the happiest answer for would be that:

1) Devin's life forks (since he's so young with endless possibility),

2) Baerd's blessed (since he's achieved his goal of restoring Tigana/his prince and can now retire to rebuild Tigana and maybe marry?)

and

3) the Duke will be the one to die, since he's the oldest and really has little left to live for (no family and he mentions not really wanting to return to rule) He does mention being intrigued to learn more of the linking magic they employed however.

Of course we have no way of knowing for sure, but I'm going to choose to think I'm correct.

What are your theories on how it works out?

[David Sven]

Did anyone see the Fool coming? The Fool turning out to be the former King of Tigana was a gob smack moment for me

[Mark]

It was a shock, but it what made the ending of this book, but to me it's not finished it needs at least another book to finish the story.

[Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town]

Oh yeah. Totally forgot to mention that David. Thanks for bringing it up. I didn't see it coming at all.

I don't feel like this book needs a sequel though. I like speculating about what happens next.

Apparently neither of you do though since you didn't offer any theories on the riselka..

[David Sven]

I don't remember enough about who saw what Riselka to freshen up any theories I had. Maybe if you scour the old S & L Tigana threads they may have talked about it there.

[Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town]

I'm talking about the very end where Devin, Baerd, and the Duke see one. There is nothing else to remember because nothing else happens.

[David Sven]

Rob wrote: "I'm talking about the very end where Devin, Baerd, and the Duke see one. There is nothing else to remember because nothing else happens."

Oh that's right. I think that's just meant to leave you pondering - I'm not sure there needs to be an answer.

[Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town]

I'm not saying there is or has to be. I was just sharing my ponderings. I guess my original post about it isn't very clear or something.

Never mind.

[David Sven]

Rob wrote: "I'm not saying there is or has to be. I was just sharing my ponderings. I guess my original post about it isn't very clear or something.

Never mind."

I just don't remember enough detail. I do remember pondering at the time - obviously not very deeply :)

[Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town]

That's just it though. There is no details. Just the verse I pasted above and the fact that the three of them see one.

So one's path will change, one will be blessed and one will die. I find it intriguing.

Which is weird for me. I hate the end of the Sopranos, which is also left wide open like that.

[Sky]

Personally, I thought that whole riselka prophecy thing was almost exactly what a prophecy is supposed to be: vague enough that it could always be considered true. Well... with a somewhat sexist exception...

One man sees a riselka: his life forks there. - Particularly if he believes in the prophesy and wants to attribute the everyday changes in his life to something mystical.

Two men see a riselka: one of them shall die. - The other one will die too, being mortal and all.

Three men see a riselka: one is blessed, one forks, one shall die. - See above... it's vague enough that anyone who wants to believe it will find a way to believe it.

And yet for women...

One woman sees a riselka: her path comes clear to her. - See notes above on belief and what-have-you.

Two women see a riselka: one of them shall bear a child. - Here we go... this is oddly specific. Everything else associated with the riselka is subject to interpretation, and I find that strange.

Three women see a riselka: one is blessed, one is clear, one shall bear a child. - I think you can see where I'm going with this.

So, my predictions for what will happen to all of them are... they continue to live their lives and attribute mundane things to mystical forces if they so desire.

Then again, I wasn't exactly a huge fan of this book, so take that as you will.

[Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town]

Heh. That's a good point Sky. But what if one of them is the Highlander? This book totally had some highlands....

[Sky]

Rob wrote: "Heh. That's a good point Sky. But what if one of them is the Highlander? This book totally had some highlands...."

Hmmm... I don't know, does the Highlander count as a man, in the context? Well, let's consider the boundary value case: they are all Highlanders.

As we all know, there can be only one. So two of them are about to die, in which case the third is blessed. All of their lives fork, I guess, since two are now dead and the third just murdered his friends, so yeah, prophecy complete!

[Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town]

I applaud you for taking my theory to the next level..

But of course in the sequel they will just bring the dead back and retcon the whole thing with aliens...

[Mpauli]

So, I finished as well. I liked it a lot, but for me it wasn't a perfect book. It's kind of funny that I just read that Kay also worked on the Silmarillion, goes he likes to go into this tale style a lot.
Sometimes there where pages and pages filled with passively told events. I'm certainly not a Paladin of "Show don't tell", but occasionally Kay tested my patience.

I really liked the whole idea regarding the questions of freedom and memory.

And I really liked how Brandin and Alessan leanrt the opposite thing in the end.
Alessan learnt that the greater good of the many does not come before the good of the individual. Every life is sacred. He realizes this with Catriana's sacrifice. It wouldn't have been worth it just to fullfill his goals.

Brandin on the other hand always put his personal need of revenge and of memory for his son infront of the needs of the many. He also realizes in the end, when he drops the spell, that there are circumstances where he can't justify this selfish need anymore.

Regarding the fool, I was really surprised. I pondered with the theory for a while, that the fool might be the actual wizard and Brandin wold be just a puppet, but I didn't see the Valentin twist coming.

The whole morale of the ending is that actually nobody really won. Even the "winners" have sacrificed and lost a lot.
I found it especially tragic that Dianora and Baerd got so close to see each other, but didn't.
It's better this way, I guess, but tragic.
But Dianora, in the end, was a very tragic but indecisive character. She decides to kill Brandin, than does nothing. She even saves him, just to be swayed by a vision a day later.
She decides to take her life for this, which she doesn't do in the end...for love.
And cause one suicidal event wasn't enough, finally she can't do nothing again to save her love or find peace with Tigana, she feels the need to end her life again.
She did a lot of thinking, but never really acted.

My interpretation regarding the riselka is pretty much what Rob said.
Devin seem clearly to be the one with the fork.
And Baerd had this whole arc of becoming whole again and the only event that might have spoiled that -meeting up with his sister again- won't happen, so he's a good candidate for being blessed.
The Duke lost his family, did his purpose and I think he can die now peacefully.

So, does anyone actually know, if Kay has something larger going on with this whole Finvar thing? There is at least -obviously- the Finvar trilogy and Finvar is the ghost world in thsi book.
Is Finvar in all of his books as Moorcock's Tanelorn and the concept of the Eternal Champion?

[Mark]

http://www.brightweavings.com/scholar... apparently not,

[Mpauli]

Mark wrote: "http://www.brightweavings.com/scholar... apparently not,"

Ah okay, but at least it seems to be a reocurring feature for insiders. I like that kind of stuff. And this will definately be not my last GGK novel. :)

[Mark]

Same here. Thinking of

[Tom]

Nothing really to add except that I actually kind of liked that Baerd and Dianora didn't see each other in the end, liked that the Fool's secret wasn't revealed to anyone else, and that we don't know the fate of those who saw the riselka. Why? Life doesn't end in a neat little box with a perfect bow so why should every story answer every question?

Baerd and Dianora have both moved on from where they were during their younger years and while they really wanted to find each other, it would have only brought both pain to see what came of the other.

I also wondered if the fool was actually Brandin but really liked it being the prince from Tigana way better. The fact that it was someone who was TRULY wronged by Brandin that did him in rather than those second guessing themselves was great. Not revealing who he was to the others in the end makes you say, "AHHH!" but that's awesome. It's obviously the expected thing to do and I like how Kay doesn't always do what's expected. Not to mention that his brother finding out what Brandin did to him would have probably been kind of demeaning to his memory (true that he killed Brandin in the end but he was also a mindless slave for 20 years).

The riselka at the end was a nice way of saying, "and then then went on to do other things with their lives" or, "and life went on".

These were satisfactory to me but there are definitely situations in stories that this can be very unsatisfying:
BattleStar Gallactica spoiler: (view spoiler)[What they did with Starbuck's character at the end was just laziness because they wrote themselves into a corner. That BS about her being whatever she needed to be is crap. A spirit/angel that didn't know she was one is a total cop out. (hide spoiler)]
Also in The Wise Man's Fear, (not really a spoiler but just in case) (view spoiler)[the whole part where Kvothe loses everything he has in about a paragraph is a bit of a contrived reason just for us to see how clever he is again. Don't make him have stuff if you want him to be poor and don't feel like writing him back to that spot... (hide spoiler)]

[Hanne]

David Sven wrote: "Did anyone see the Fool coming? The Fool turning out to be the former King of Tigana was a gob smack moment for me"

I was wondering who the Fool was, he was mentioned so very often. When Alessan said he felt a kinship with the Fool, I was even more intrigued, but to be honest I didn't put it together until it was mentioned. I forgot this whole part where an actual healthy man is crippled to be a fool after the attempted assassination (Brandin saying "it has been done before").

[Hanne]

Tom wrote: "The riselka at the end was a nice way of saying, "and then then went on to do other things with their lives" or, "and life went on".

I was about to say the same thing (note to self: always read the whole thread before answering). I took the risalka like that as well. Not really as an open end.

(and agree on the BSG comment too. i hated what they did to her character at the end)