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Tigana > Tigana: Part Three: Ember to Ember

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Dara (cmdrdara) Discussion for Part Three (page 247 to 392).

Spoilers from Part One, Two, and Three are okay. NO SPOILERS for the rest of the book.


message 2: by Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 6375 comments Mod
Part three is off to a better start at least. We see a return to Devin and his new friends causing mischief to subvert that A-guy's reign.

They then come to a castle and Devin is seduced by the widow who rules there. I believe her name is Mrs. Robinson..


Dara (cmdrdara) Alberico. I wasn't a fan of the seduction of Devan.


message 4: by Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 6375 comments Mod
I just kept singing Mrs. Robinson to myself..


message 5: by Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 6375 comments Mod
Oh and forgot to bring up what could be the most important detail yesterday: The group comes upon a troubadour on the road and the Duke lets him know he's a wizard disguising himself. The Prince then proceeds to bind him.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. The wizard obviously is not happy about it and struggles against the binding to no avail.

The we have this very real battle of the spirits that Baird joins in, and kick ass at, despite having the appearance of a 15 year old boy. It was an interesting sequence and there are parallels to the invasion of the Palm as Baird himself explains, but I'll be curious to see if this ties into the larger story somehow of it was just a bit of "flavor".

No Alisan (or however you spell the Prince's name) is meeting with Bear? That older guy whose fought off 7 champions and killed a priestess to name himself King. Devin has to stop an assassination attempt.

They are conspiring to hold trade off between the Palm and his kingdom and I guess start a war between Alberico (is that the head of the Barbosan invaders?) and this independent kingdom.

(of note: I'm listening to Mrs. Robinson while finishing this post, go go Forest Gump soundtrack!)


Mpauli | 241 comments I finished this part and it had some interesting ideas.

I think the first thought that came to my mind was that someone's freedom fighter is someone else's terrorist.
What Allesan, Devin and Co. are doing is a guerilla warfare and they do a lot of things they aren't very proud of.
And Kay shows that they struggle with these decisions. Devin is haunted by the guard he had to kill and Allesan is barely holding it together, when Eirlan accusses him of drawing too many innocents into the conflict by inciting a war.
This raises the question of morality. Is the remembrance of Tigana and getting rid of the tyrants worth all the innocent lives that will be sacrificed in the upcoming conflict?
And can someone like Allesan really be called a freedom fighter, when he denies that freedom to Eirlan and enslaves him for the "greater good"? Kay asks very interesting questions and isn't one for offering comfortable answers. I really like that.

The other two interesting developments are actually the changes Devin and Baerd are making, while both having sex in the same night.

Let's start with Devin. The experience with the older woman allows him to reevaluate his place and station. He actually realizes that the world is way bigger than he thought and through all the different sex plays, he finds aspects about himself that he didn't know of before.
This brings clarity for him and actually helps him to grow up. The whole awkwardness between him and Catriana hangs over them since months. But after his experience, he realizes how unimportant, silly and childish that is. He immediately realizes that it's not about sex or even love with Catriana and he tries to work out a friendship.
And as an immediate reward he's taken to the grown-up talk, where he is now able to understand how important that talk is and what it means for him to be there. Devin matures through his experience.

For Baerd the whole experience was even more important. Since the incest with his sister, something was broken in him. He is not himself. And Kay shows that rather skillfully, cause Baerd is the master of disguise, who is always able to alter his appearance and act as someone else...but never as his actual self, cause it is broken.
This is why he roams the nights. When everybody is asleep there is noone to act for. He has to be himself with himself and he can't stand that.
Now in the ghost world he isn't able to wear a mask and his real self is shown. And despite all the masks and tricks he does in the real world, his soul is still the fifteen year old boy, who did something wrong and can't forgive himself.
And so it is vitally important for him that in this form he is able to make the difference, he is able to turn away the foe without a disguise. Baerd in his purest broken form can actually do something good.
And as sex in form of the incest broke him, the sex in the ghost world in his true form makes him whole again. This is the sexual encounter the fifteen year old boy should have had.
For Baerd this means that he can look himself in the eye again, accept who he is and finally can leave the wrongness behind and grow up.

And I think that was the purpose of the ghost world. But I also had the feeling that there might be more to it.
I thought for a while, that Kay might do something Michael Moorcock does with Tanelorn. To have a place, where all his stories meet. It would be cool to read other stories of him and have different characters fight there in the ghos world, but I doubt that he does that kind of thing.


message 7: by Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 6375 comments Mod
I agree that the sexual encounters changed them both, I'm not convinced that Baerd's has made him whole, but rather put him on that road. He has a ways to go in my opinion.


Hanne (hanne2) My biggest comment to this part is exactly what MPauli brought up in his first paragraph. How much is 'too much' damage even if it is for the greater good? Senzio is the only standing city, if this plan goes through, what is the cost going to be?


The scene between Catriana and Devin in the castle was really nicely done, even though this was the part i admired the most. Her characterization of the Rovigo girls really is a bit elitist to say the least, but funny nonetheless:
"She considered putting one of the blankets over him but resisted the impulse. For some reason she didn't really want him waking in the morning and knowing she'd done that. Rovigo's daughters did that sort of thing, not she. Or no: the younger daughter would have had him in this bed and inside her by now, strange moods and exhaustion notwithstanding. The older? Would have woven a new quilt at miraculous speed and tucked it around him with a note attached as to the lineage of the sheep that had given the wool and the history of the pattern she'd chosen."

But talking about Catriana, I hope she will come out kicking ass as well. We still have half the book to go, but so far all the main action has been for the men in this group, and they have always nicely left her behind when that was happening. Crossing my fingers to see something cool happening with Catriana or Alais.

I also liked the very subtle parallel between Marius-'Pigeon' and Alessan-Erlein:
"Marius shook his large head. "It is bad to have need of a man."
"I know, Bear."
"He may come back to you, even years later, and ask you for something very large. Something your heart will not let you refuse."



message 9: by Tom (last edited Nov 23, 2013 06:20PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Tom | 24 comments I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said already. I really like how Kay makes the good guys do these terrible things (binding the wizard against his will). It really shows that there are no real absolutes for good and evil.

I really liked seeing Baerd unleash the beast and get to do what it seems like he's been stirring to do. Getting to relive one of the great regrets in his life is an awesome gift.

Once again, great insights MPauli!


Anders (anderslwensprung) | 41 comments There were some strange sequences in this chapter. I thought the one with Baerd fighting in a dream world was not needed, and was really a case where less is more would have been better.

I like the interplay between the characters, and especially between Catriana and Devin, but also thr scenes on the mountain were well done.

Looking forward to more Dianora in the next chapter.


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