Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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Nakia wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Warning !The entire book is open for discussion. Spoiler alerts beyond this point unnecessary. Laymon said (paraphrasing) if he had to do it over he would make the 1985 period sh..."
Glad you found a way to complete the reading, I didn't and only skimmed through the book...
This work reminds me of Junot Diaz. Is there any influence or mention of his work being esteemed or influence by Laymon?
Nakia wrote: "When the 1985 and 1964 sections of the book started getting longer, I began dreading the book and almost thought I wouldn't be able to finish it."I never feared not finishing it, but I do remember those sections got a bit tedious now that you mention it. I really looked forward to the 2013 scenes. They seemed edgier or something.
I too did not enjoy the time travelled years as much..but I wonder if maybe my expectations of a neat tie up at the end..which did not happen..caused me to discount them...there were too many lose ends, unfinished tangents and unexplained events (i.e. pot belly in the shed). I was hoping that maybe some of the younger readers of speculative/science fiction perhaps could shed some light...(You know who you are...:-)
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Thanks again to everyone who contributed to the discussion. Feel free to add more comments if you like.
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I am definitely open to reading How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America. I've read a few of his articles online, and Kiese is really wonderful when it comes to non-fiction/essays.
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Same here, Nakia. I've enjoyed the few blog postings I've read and his interviews. He has a sort of tongue-in-cheek interview style, intelligent delivery and biting social commentary. He's an original. Even though this book was not quite my cup of tea, I wouldn't hesitate reading other selections by him.
I would definitely read another novel by this author, even though I am still a bit shell-shocked by this one. I bought How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America and am reading it one essay at a time. As Columbus said, he is intelligent and original and he is certainly thought-provoking.
I tried to get this through an inter-library loan as soon as I gave up and figured I wouldn't be able to participate at all...it showed up! I started reading it two days ago. So I pretty much missed the discussion but I had some thoughts, and...better late than never!I read the thread and it seems like there was a lot of confusion with Jewish Evan Antshuler and Pot Belly... I was confused too... but I thought--what if they were the same person? He was apparently there when 2013 City's grandfather died, and didn't 1985 City's grandfather die/"disappear" in the Freedom School right before the Antshulers were going to burn it down? Also, Pot Belly also seems to know something about Baize but is adamant that it wasn't him who made her disappear, it was "the guy who wrote the book" or something. But why on earth would he be kicking City in the back? So it doesn't entirely make sense but the thought crossed my mind. Also... wasn't the principal of the school named Lara Reeves? And then there was "Mama Lara," who was 1985 City's grandmother, correct? I don't know...it feels like there's something there but I don't know what.
Anyway I also preferred the 2013 parts much more than the time travel stuff--which seems to be the consensus here. The time travel stuff was kind of distracting to me. Overall though, I really liked the book and the characters and the commentary, so it didn't affect my enjoyment too much.
Also, what are anyone's thoughts on the ellipses throughout? LaVander has one tattooed on his wrist, it's one of the first things we learn about him.
How do you all feel about teaching this one to students? I know it has its comprehension and subject matter problems, but I want to find a metafictional text that feels current and deal with relevant issues. I am not sure, though, if the storyline is too elaborate (a constant problem with metafictional texts, anyway...)
Paige wrote: "Also, what are anyone's thoughts on the ellipses throughout? LaVander has one tattooed on his wrist, it's one of the first things we learn about him. ..."I loved the ellipses, Paige! A repeating symbol of living in between what comes before and what comes afterwards.
At what level are your students, Leah?
Wilhelmina wrote: "Paige wrote: "Also, what are anyone's thoughts on the ellipses throughout? LaVander has one tattooed on his wrist, it's one of the first things we learn about him. ..."I loved the ellipses, Paige..."
Oh right - I should have mentioned that. :) Most of my students are first- or second-year college students.
Paige wrote: "I tried to get this through an inter-library loan as soon as I gave up and figured I wouldn't be able to participate at all...it showed up! I started reading it two days ago. So I pretty much misse..."Wow...wish I still had the book so that I could follow up on all these things you mentioned and that I missed in my first reading!
Paige wrote: "I tried to get this through an inter-library loan as soon as I gave up and figured I wouldn't be able to participate at all...it showed up! I started reading it two days ago. So I pretty much misse..."Paige, the same thought about Jewish Evan being Pot Belly ran through my head, too. Or Pot Belly being someone else from the other decades. But nothing ever added up so I figured I was trying too hard. lol
Leah wrote: "How do you all feel about teaching this one to students? I know it has its comprehension and subject matter problems, but I want to find a metafictional text that feels current and deal with releva..."I think that it would be excellent for first and second year college students. Lots to discuss, historical perspectives, gender issues, etc. If you use it, be sure to let us know what your students think about it!
I know I'm late in the discussion but I'm really enjoying the dialogue. If you find it to cumbersome to respond to old comments feel free to ignore mine! lolLonda--what makes you think he misused chitterlings purposely in the second sentence?
I am still reading. I am reading it slow on purpose. I am liking taking my time in this one.
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Jetaime wrote: "Londa--what makes you think he misused chitterlings purposely in the second sentence?"My take on it was this: LaVander was visibly upset the whole time, the conflict seemed to be whether to do things "correctly" and get the approval of the white contest organizers, or to bail like City and retain some dignity/autonomy. When the balloons came down it seemed he couldn't take being patronized any more and so added some words to his sentence (cleverly, I thought) to make chitterlings mean the wrong thing.
This was just my impression on the first reading, but it seemed to be verified much later in the book when he gives a reason for his distress in a conversation with City.
Michael wrote: "Jetaime wrote: "Londa--what makes you think he misused chitterlings purposely in the second sentence?"My take on it was this: LaVander was visibly upset the whole time, the conflict seemed to be ..."
Exactly. I wish I had the book to quote, but I returned it some time ago. Something about the "eating own kids" I thought it was hilarious. He also made it a point to clarify exactly what he meant, so they would have no choice but to eliminate him.
Oh wow, thank you! I interpreted that scene completely different but I think your analysis is much more accurate.
Columbus wrote: "Sarah wrote: "OK, I'm caught up. I'm loving this book. The sensual language is outstanding with the sounds and smells. Some of it is really hilarious. But why is it not a YA book? I see it in th..."
Just my two cents...I'm really not sure what criteria they used to go about categorizing these things..
I wouldn't consider this a YA book not because of the sensitive themes Laymon delves into, but because of the extent which he delves into them.
I think a young person may be developmentally unprepared to begin thinking about structural racism and it's cultural manifestations. They don't teach this is in grade school--and you're lucky (or a black studies/womens studies major) if you step into an awareness of it in college.
I'm not sure if anyone has read Diary of a Part Time Indian--that's an amazing YA book that delves vastly into the effect of colonialism/white supremacy on native american culture but it does so in a way that to me is more palatable for a young adult. It's a lot less edgy than Long Division, covers maybe less themes, but has a similar mission to Long Division.
Jetaime wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Sarah wrote: "OK, I'm caught up. I'm loving this book. The sensual language is outstanding with the sounds and smells. Some of it is really hilarious. But why is it not a YA boo..."
Correction, I don't mean inherently developmentally unprepared..I think it's never too early to begin thinking about how the world works, but incremental doses at a time might be more effective.
Nakia wrote: "Londa wrote: "I finished it but I stopped enjoying it about midway through. Can someone please explain what happened with the dude in the shed and WHY? What was the point of that?"I was very conf..."
Honestly if I had not lived in MS or any other part of the deep south, I may have been similarly perplexed..think Madea...lol. Also I'm not sure if I picked up on Mama Lara being "high fa-looty"-she's fiercely loving and I think the fact that she's connected with the beat up guy found in the shed, is a masterful example of the extent of her fierce, down-home, bigmama, kinda love. Not that I condone kidnapping to show how much you love anyone..but I'm sure you catch me.
William wrote: "I was a little confused by the Jewish guys character. (forgotten his name). While he was well represented in 1985 and 64 I don't recall him having anything to do with 2013. I kept waiting for his r..."Pertaining to the Jewish character William--I think you're spot on when it comes to why Laymon used the Jewish character..and yes there was actually a pretty strong Jewish presence in MS before and during the Civil Rights period(as in one synagogue). I just read a book called "The Peddlers Grandson, Growing up Jewish in MS". It was phenomenal because he goes into excruciating detail of how Jews felt as outsiders in MS and the world generally. And unfortunately I know many intelligent people who aren't aware of the complex dynamic between Jews and WASP. They were not considered white during the 50's and 60's but they were given a pass. If they stepped outside the boundaries relegated by what defined their passing or not passing--they suffered for it. Such a fascinating book to read, maybe after this one, to get a better angle on Evan.
Rebecca wrote: "This work reminds me of Junot Diaz. Is there any influence or mention of his work being esteemed or influence by Laymon?"I've seen them grouped together in a few articles I've come across on the internet. After reading this book of Laymons specifically I could not stop thinking about Junots' writing! The humor stands out in a similarly indescribable way as Diaz. And they both write in a way that gives you a really intimate perspective on the cultural background they're coming from. So much so that if you weren't intimately familiar with the culture (or not open to it) it might fly under the radar for you. I also find it interesting Junots been talking about writing a science fiction story --and he's a huge science fiction fan. I think we're blessed to have both authors and their work highly visible at the same time.
I started out thinking what the heck with this book and now I feel conflicted because it don't want to put it down but I am reading it slow so like you said so I don't let so much "fly under the radar" for me. Are you getting tired of "All things considered" yet? ha ha
Jetaime wrote: "I wouldn't consider this a YA book not because of the sensitive themes Laymon delves into, but because of the extent which he delves into them.I think a young person may be developmentally unprepared to begin thinking about structural racism and it's cultural manifestations. They don't teach this is in grade school--and you're lucky (or a black studies/womens studies major) if you step into an awareness of it in college"
I suppose it depends on where a YA lives in this country. My experience has been with teenagers who are very much aware of racism in Raleigh NC.
In a recent incident a "Right-to-Life" organization received permission from a high school to pass out their pamphlets and brochures after school. The black students noticed that the material they received was not the same as what the white kids received. When the local news crew arrived, the black students were very vocal, on the air, expressing their offense at being treated like guinea pigs.
Sarah wrote: "Jetaime wrote: "I wouldn't consider this a YA book not because of the sensitive themes Laymon delves into, but because of the extent which he delves into them.I think a young person may be develo..."
I think you're right Sarah. I'm probably not giving teenagers enough credit. Teens and pre-teens did drive the freedom movement in the 50's and 60's. Perhaps I'm a little jaded by the particular young people in my environment from the past few years. I'm inspired to hear what the YA you know are doing.
Jetaime wrote: "William wrote: "I was a little confused by the Jewish guys character. (forgotten his name). While he was well represented in 1985 and 64 I don't recall him having anything to do with 2013. I kept w..."I'll look for that title...I enjoy reading little known histories.
Y'all have covered a lot. Can I tell you one thing that has been bothering me? This is obviously about much more than just these fantastical adventures of (a) boy(s) named City. It's a critique of structual racism and all that, as has been mentioned. So, as I look at the whole issue of the sentence competition (and even the spelling bee), I wonder what is the broader point. And as I take it to the logical conclusion, I feel like it's that argument against affirmative action that certain neo-conservatives like to make (often people of color themselves making it). That the existence of affirmative action lessens the achievements and esteem of all folks of color because all of society and all of us will be constantly second guessing our inherent merit and believe that we only got to the places we are because of this undeserved preferential treatment- thus harming even those who don't "need" affirmative action. This is an argument that I do not at all agree with for all the many inaccurate reads on the state of the world contained therein. But did anyone else feel Laymon getting close to this? It doesn't jibe with the rest of the feel of the novel, and it made me a bit uncomfortable.I'm assuming I'm one of the members referred to as "younger readers of speculative/science fiction." Coming from that self-identified stand point, I found it interesting that as the book went on, and we learned more about the comings and goings, I started viewing the 1985 City as the "real" City and 2013 City as the book character. I seem to be alone in that.
The thing about the time travel that also remains rolling around in my head is related to the ultimate fate of Baize. When we leave things, she has disappeared because Shalaya has decided to stay with Ethan and thus she can no longer exist. which is fine. But traditional time travel narrative would mean that she never existed at all. However, in our story, she exists until the point that her mom changes her future. and she becomes a missing person. This makes me think that there is much more going on. The only way I can figure that 2013 ever knew Baize to be able to miss her later, is if the end indicates that City is somehow constantly traveling, seeking to rewrite his endings with the people he loves. It would seem to have support in Mama Lara's cryptic presence, tests, speeches. It would maybe be an explanation for why City and Shalaya's bodies are never found after Katrina (they've gone back in the hole), and it would keep the possibility of Baize alive, and thus render her as a missing honor roll student in 2013. I've been spinning my wheels on this one a lot, as you can tell.
Here's a question, though- when City goes back in the hole at the end, reaches into the dark and "feels them all there," any idea who is there with him? Endless iterations of himself, Baize, Shalaya/Shayla, Ethan, Lavander, grandma, etc??? Would love to hear your interpretations.
Rashida wrote: "Y'all have covered a lot. Can I tell you one thing that has been bothering me? This is obviously about much more than just these fantastical adventures of (a) boy(s) named City. It's a critique ..."Lot of good stuff in your post, Rashida. Let me see...
I'm glad you spelled out the Affirmative Action analysis because I didn't originally make it past the contest itself to the larger critique. But I see that adding points to a hiring score because of skin color has the same effect as giving someone an "easier" word in a sentence contest. They still have to use their talents to succeed, but they question their talent anyway since they can never know how much was talent and how much was quota. (Although we who are white are taught to believe our skin color doesn't give us an advantage and so we often assume it was our talent anyway...). Importantly, it doesn't matter what the intentions of the white organizers or powers that be were, the effect on the benefactor's self esteem is the same.
But I'm not clear Laymon is criticizing Affirmative Action, per se, since I thought the criticism was of the organizer's deception specifically, but I could be wrong here. Certainly hearing your thoughts leads me to believe Laymon is giving us characters that would feel as if their integrity was being threatened if they faced Affirmative Action in hiring, for example, and would leave the table. It's interesting that he didn't offer a contrary viewpoint, that he had all the people of color leave, only the white guys from New Orleans were left, if I remember correctly.
As for the time travel bits, I love time travel for its promise of possibilities, the potential for correcting old regrets, but it drives me crazy if I can't make the pieces fit together! You have reminded me: they announced that Baize was missing at the sentence contest, but when 2013 Baize is looking at her laptop it is after the sentence contest because City is already going viral on YouTube. Major paradox. Isn't she already missing? I'm not sure even Mr. Laymon can explain his way out of this one, although I'm wondering if City finds a way to make her exist again, like he says he will try to do, and then she really does disappear because she is with them in the time machine somewhere? Still, the sequence of events seems off.
I thought I had the ending figured out, but now I'm not sure. The 2013 ending (p.266) has City and LaVander walk down into the hole in the ground, City tells LaVander he loves him, briefly mentions he hears someone else breathing in the hole with them, and then they start rereading Long Division. The 1985 ending (p.262) has City in the hole alone, shutting the door which usually means he's time travelling, and then smelling: sweat, trees, and ink - which I took to mean people, a new point in time, and the Long Division book - then
"I gently reached and rubbed my hands up, down, and all around their noses, their eyelids, their dry lips and ear lobes. I found their thighs, their flimsy T-shirts, and finally all of their crusty hands...
"Slowly, we opened our red eyes in the dark and taught each other how to love. Hand in hand, deep in the underground of Mississippi, we all ran away to tomorrow because we finally could..." (emphasis mine)
I thought "their" was referring to 2013 City and LaVander, but now that seems like a paradox. Was he talking about Shalaya and Blaize? Blaize doesn't make sense except that was what Blaize wanted, was for them all to go away together, and 1985 City said he would get Blaize back right away because "tomorrow" was just a word. I'm open to any suggestions here!!
Rebecca wrote: "I started out thinking what the heck with this book and now I feel conflicted because it don't want to put it down but I am reading it slow so like you said so I don't let so much "fly under the ra..."I actually find that line hysterical; it tickles me every time. I feel like everyone probably has met someone who would be "that guy" to say something like that.
Rashida wrote: "The thing about the time travel that also remains rolling around in my head is related to the ultimate fate of Baize. When we leave things, she has disappeared because Shalaya has decided to stay with Ethan and thus she can no longer exist. which is fine. But traditional time travel narrative would mean that she never existed at all. However, in our story, she exists until the point that her mom changes her future. and she becomes a missing person. This makes me think that there is much more going on. The only way I can figure that 2013 ever knew Baize to be able to miss her later, is if the end indicates that City is somehow constantly traveling, seeking to rewrite his endings with the people he loves. It would seem to have support in Mama Lara's cryptic presence, tests, speeches. It would maybe be an explanation for why City and Shalaya's bodies are never found after Katrina (they've gone back in the hole), and it would keep the possibility of Baize alive, and thus render her as a missing honor roll student in 2013...."I love this, Rashida!
I swear there is a scene midway in he book where City is in 1985 and he mentions using an iPad...just me? I'll find the page number one day. I could just be delusional I feel a little dizzy after finishing this beautiful story. I wish I had underlined and highlighted more. There's a lot to dissect.
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Yes, find that passage because I don't recall an iPad mentioned in the entire book.
Hi I'm new to this group. I joined because I wanted to read more book outside of my preferred genre of Science Fiction and Fantasy. I'm 25% into Long Division, and imagine my surprise when I learned this book was borderline science fiction. LOL. This is definitely one of the craziest books I've read. I'm enjoying it.
Michael I felt the same as you did about "Quarter Black" almost like he was a placeholder for the Jewish perspective. Up until now I was mostly interested in City. All the sudden the conversation between Shalayla and Evan became very interesting to me and their conversation has me thinking a lot of what Laymon wanted to say about Shalayla. Is he showing some ignorance? or am I missing totally what she represents?I didn't get the cat part at all. And were the Dobermans just another sexual aside?
Are we suppose to questions the time travel? It seems to me like it wasn't solid.
It was interesting that most enjoyed 2013 the most.
I think I am going to have to put this book high on my list of favorites this year. I still have to finish Americahnah and I am not sure if it would beat it.
Rebecca wrote: "Michael I felt the same as you did about "Quarter Black" almost like he was a placeholder for the Jewish perspective. Up until now I was mostly interested in City. All the sudden the conversation b..."The more I think about Evan, the more I think his "placeholder" status was part of his identity. I get the feeling he had a lot of experience being the only Jewish person among non-Jewish Black and white people, and so was often pressured to "speak for" the larger cultural group.
What conversation are you referring to that seems to speak about Shalaya/what she represents?
Well, yes, the time travel was a little soft. There is certainly no "science" proposed to explain it, and the consequences are not obvious, but Mr. Laymon seemed to be using it as a metaphor to show the connections between past, present, and future. Doesn't it say somewhere in the book that we all have the ability to recreate our own past, or something like that?
I finished the book and I would recommend the book. I really though it was brilliant and unique. I don't think I quite got the ending of it as far as the time travel worked but it did make more sense when I finished. The sense of humor between Shaylayla and City kept me laughing and also Baize in the final chapters. I appreciated the struggle for City and Baize. I can see why it was difficult for the author to write.
Literary Fiction by People of Color
Books mentioned in this topic
How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America (other topics)How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America (other topics)
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (other topics)
Invisible Man (other topics)
Long Division (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Percival Everett (other topics)Kiese Laymon (other topics)
Kiese Laymon (other topics)
Kiese Laymon (other topics)
Laymon said (paraphrasing) if he had to do it over he would make the 1985 period sharper. It wasn't ..."
I preferred the 2013 scenes only. Those were the least confusing and the most entertaining. I greatly enjoyed 2013 City. When the 1985 and 1964 sections of the book started getting longer, I began dreading the book and almost thought I wouldn't be able to finish it.