Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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Long Division
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Discussion: Long Division
Londa wrote: "MM wrote: "****Spoilers*******Special Game Section***
So I just finished reading the special game section, and have a couple of questions.
Can someone break down why LaVander first started to act ..."
I somehow missed that LaVander became sad once he'd seen the "Mexicans" - I liked your analysis, Londa. There is so much going on in that scene. The issue of trying to break barriers vs maintaining dignity is such a complicated struggle, which we can see physically in LaVander's body language throughout. It's interesting to me that he defied his father, who obviously thinks succeeding is more important; I'm hoping City will get a chance to talk to LaVander about their choices that night.
I also thought showing the conflict again with City on the bus with the young white men/young Black women was meaningful. My take was that City seemed to be bonding with the Black women over his angry speech, but then was still tempted by the fitting in/popularity being offered him by the white men. The issue comes up again with his Grandmother's behavior at the Walmart. I like that Laymon keeps poking us from different angles on this.
I was taken aback by LaVander's notion that City was getting a free ride because his teachers were feeding him "black" words in the contests instead of the harder "white" words that he had to master. I found it both hilarious and thought provoking. There certainly are some words Black folk tend to favor...If I hear one more person say "Ya feel me" I swear I'm gonna freak...but I thought City way too accomplished in mastering vocabulary to be undone my "niggardly". And look at me...putting the dot dot dot in my sentence!
Mod
***Special Game Section***
So I just finished reading the special game section, and have a couple of questions.
Can someone break down why LaVander first s..."
Yes, I've just started reading this and you're right, Laymon has my head spinning. There's so much going on here. You can very easily miss something. I'm loving this! It reminds me of Erasure by Percival Everett a little.
Please, everyone, just comment on everything that comes to mind. Whatever you're thinking I'm certain someone else is thinking the same.
His humor is outrageous!
Mod
Yes, City just seems too smart for his own good..."all things considered"
William wrote: "I was taken aback by LaVander's notion that City was getting a free ride because his teachers were feeding him "black" words in the contests instead of the harder "white" words that he had to maste..."I thought that City summed it up perfectly: "I mean, even if I used the word right, I still would've lost. You see that, don't you?"
I read an article once about how SAT vocabulary questions are biased toward whites. (They even gave examples, like sentences involving snow were answered correctly more often by people who lived in the North.) The clincher was that the test makers later found potential questions that, during preliminary testing, were biased toward African Americans, but they discarded those because it would change the averages. (Well, duh.) Makes your head spin.
Looking at the earlier contest again (p.32) - they gave LaVander and City the words "infanticide" and "chitterlings", supposedly Black words, but they gave Toni "coup d'etat", which supposedly none of them knew how to use dynamically. So the implication was they wanted the boys to win. Is there a reason implied why the white sponsors would want Black men rather than Black women as their token champions?
OK, I'm caught up. I'm loving this book. The sensual language is outstanding with the sounds and smells. Some of it is really hilarious. But why is it not a YA book? I see it in the same range as the Hunger Games series, which was wildly popular with YA and adults as well.
I'm about to go long division on the time travel in Melahatchie. #lookingforfamilytreechart
Michael wrote: "William wrote: "I was taken aback by LaVander's notion that City was getting a free ride because his teachers were feeding him "black" words in the contests instead of the harder "white" words that..."At least, I think that they (the sponsors) wanted the black kids to win instead of the white ones so that they could look good.
And also to look as though they had made progress (via race relations or and that blacks had made progress academically).
Creating an illusion of progress so that they don't really have to 'work' at actual progress, if that makes sense.
It is easier to have a few black kids win a national spelling/word competition and use that as a proof that the education in all schools are equal, instead of, you know, actually working to change things.
Also, no one could claim that their contest is bias toward whites if every so often a token black (or other minority) wins.
MM wrote: "Michael wrote: "William wrote: "I was taken aback by LaVander's notion that City was getting a free ride because his teachers were feeding him "black" words in the contests instead of the harder "w..."After hearing Laymon speak about putting in actual work to fixing racism, what you're saying makes perfect sense.
Columbus wrote: "Michael wrote: "Londa wrote: "MM wrote: "****Spoilers*******Special Game Section***
So I just finished reading the special game section, and have a couple of questions.
Can someone break down why ..."
So I just read the description for Erasure...
I am adding it to my reading list! :)
I really like this Long Division book. I am being exposed to a lot of great author's of color via this group.
MM wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Michael wrote: "Londa wrote: "MM wrote: "****Spoilers*******Special Game Section***
So I just finished reading the special game section, and have a couple of questions.
Can someon..."
Ditto Erasure, it sounds very incisive, thanks for the reference, Columbus! Also ditto on the exposure to great authors of color, this group continually expands my mind!
MM, I think your analysis on City's and LaVander's inclusion in the contest is dead on, and I appreciate your clear and thorough points. My question has more to do with Toni - who was the African American girl with them in their school finals (p.32). The school was allowed to send all three of them as representatives to the state contest, but they eliminated Toni. This seemed strange to me since, as it turned out, they would have had a much better chance of having an African American be their token champion at the state contest if Toni was there, too. I wasn't sure if Laymon was trying to make a statement about gender, maybe continuing the line of thought about how proud the principal was of the boys even though Toni was better than both of them (p.8). I haven't quite worked this one out.
Michael, I don't know that the school actually wanted a 'token' AA state champion. Its not hard to believe that they wanted to embarrass both City and LaVander. The words selected for them makes me believe so. I think they pitied them for hurricane katrina and thought this was a nice gesture but had no expecations/interest in seeing either of these kids win. Aside, Laymon did convey that gender/sexuality were also intentional themes throughout the book.
Tia wrote: "Michael, I don't know that the school actually wanted a 'token' AA state champion. Its not hard to believe that they wanted to embarrass both City and LaVander. The words selected for them makes me..."I was starting with LaVander's assumption. If LaVander's belief is true that "chitterlings" was given to City in order to get him to move on to the state finals, then doesn't it follow that "chitterlings" was again given to LaVander in the final round in order to get him to win the state championship? All he had to do was repeat City's sentence, which he did. It seemed like that was what he was struggling with: winning when they basically gave it to him, versus losing so it could be on his own terms.
Although I do see your point that "niggardly" might have been given to City to embarrass him. And LaVander's analysis is not necessarily accurate. I'll admit there is no "answer" here; like many instances of racism it is obfuscated since the word choices all happen behind the scenes.
Mod
But why is it not a YA book? I see it in the same range a..."
So, would every book with a teen protagonist be considered a YA novel? My perception of what a YA novel is doesn't look like Long Division. I'm trying to think of other books that might be questionable here. How old was Carrie in Stephen King's book of the same name? Would that be considered a YA novel? Kind of blur the lines.
I just finished the introduction of Coach Stroud (p.90). I was moved by how City summed up the pressures that keep boys from caring about each other:"No part of me really wanted to touch (LaVander's) sack, but I knew you couldn't tell people that you loved another boy because as soon as folks heard the word 'love' they would look at me the same way I looked Coach when he had that sack itch."
On Sarah's question, this is actually one of the reasons I think this could be considered YA. The boy love question, navigating his dignity at the contest, and his struggle to accept Coach Stroud and Grandma's methods of trying to protect him from racism, all seem like the kind of things boys of color his age would be dealing with, and would want to explore in their reading.
Mod
"No part of me really wanted to touch (LaVand..."
Michael, I'm at the exact same place and I'm questioning where City is going with the sexuality issue. Coach Stroud busting booties with Gunn (is this something he made up) and City's affection for Levander. I'm real curious as to where this is headed.
Yeah, it just came up again with his interactions with Gunn (p.117). Most of the time it sounds like 14 year old kids trying to prove they're not gay, but there is also a lot of self-reflection and sensitivity here, so it could go any direction.
My favorite line in the book thus far, "But I also knew that no one on earth could make me happier or sadder than that boy either. That felt like love to me." I don't think City has the language to name his relationship to LaVandeer. He does however express his feelings for him which alludes to a deep affection for him. I love that Kiese chose to go there with City. He allowed the character to be unabashed in his feelings for everyone close to him. The affection he shares toward his grandmother is just that. He describes her as being fine and thick in a way thats absolutely beautiful. Which I think speaks to a greater theme of the book, appreciating and loving black bodies.
Mod
Tia, thanks for bringing that up. Totally agree.
Mod
Particularly about the body image. Especially important for young readers, particularly young, black girls.
Columbus wrote: "So, would every book with a teen protagonist be considered a YA novel? My perception of what a YA novel is doesn't look like Long Division. I'm trying to think of other books that might be questionable "I see YA novels as focused on the range of issues that might confront a YA, not limited to teenagers. This book has so many coming-of-age-black issues, it fits for me, and not just because the protagonists are teenagers.
Tia wrote: "My favorite line in the book thus far, "But I also knew that no one on earth could make me happier or sadder than that boy either. That felt like love to me." I don't think City has the language to..."I agree with you, too, Tia. City's unabashed expression of his feelings is very refreshing. He can speak to so many people that way. Kiese said there were many topics within Black culture that needed discussing. I love that he created this novel as a way to get the conversation going.
I heard a lecturer once say many, many years ago there wasn't a way for young Black boys & men to express pure love to one another, that it always gets put into a stereotypical box, leaving them without an outlet. I can't say I agreed with her completely, but this passage reminded me of her statement. Kiese shows how the affection between men will find a way through. And I see it everyday, unspoken, between brothers or long-time friends and it's very heart-warming.
Who knows what City & LaVander's relationship will be? I hope that the mutual respect gotten from the competition will grow.
I love this book!
I've just finished the book. And I don't really know what to say. I mean, I love the question-provoking themes throughout: gender, sexuality, loving black bodies, black respectability politics, the southern black church experience, fantasy realism. The meta was a bit cumbersome for me. I loved the voice of City and the other characters, but the execution wasn't as compelling. The depth in the writing style fell flat to my expectations. I expected more based on his other essays and interviews. I love books that are told through the eyes of child protagonists. Salvage the Bones by Jesmyn Ward was transformative, yet, not so 'theme heavy' as I found Long Division to be. I also felt like the book could've been told in about half the number of pages. But, I love Kiese and I want him and other great black Southern writers to win!
too many dynamic sentences? anyway, I'm about half way through at the moment. I find it interesting if not compelling, and certainly it hits lots of themes. It certainly moves along lines I hadn't expected.
Tia wrote: "I've just finished the book. And I don't really know what to say. I mean, I love the question-provoking themes throughout: gender, sexuality, loving black bodies, black respectability politics, the..."I just finished also and I don't know what to say about it yet either! It certainly kept me reading and it is not like any other book I've ever read, although I could see the influence of Invisible Man, as well as Kindred. I feel like I need to reread it - i still feel a bit dizzied by it.
Mod
Mina, I finished last night and I immediately thought about Kindred. I'm not a big fan of time travel at all and likely would not have read this book had it not been the featured book for the month. Having said that, I'm glad I did because Laymon has some important things to say here. I must admit I preferred 2013, current day, much more than 1964 and certainly more than 1985.
Mod
Tiffany wrote: "Tia wrote: "My favorite line in the book thus far, "But I also knew that no one on earth could make me happier or sadder than that boy either. That felt like love to me." I don't think City has the..."*****Spoiler Alert*****
******Baize Section*******
I haven't finished yet.
So far, I like the writing style, but I haven't read enough of Laymon's non-fiction to compare.
Laymon's exploration of sexuality as well as different types of love is unabashed. From City's love for his grandma and LaVander, to even how 1985 City describes his love for Shalaya. It seems pretty mature to me how he notices every one of her flaws, sometimes in very unflattering ways, but still calls her beautiful. It is a bit deeper than how teenage love is written in a lot of YA books (not that this is YA) but it still doesn't seem 'grown' or adult. It is still a bit juvenile. I don't know how to describe it.
Have others besides Tia read Invisible Man? I'm just now rereading it and the battle royal at the beginning makes me believe that Kiese is spinning this scene in the sentence contest. The game is rigged and set up for black boys to compete against each other for white entertainment. The pro-assimilationist speech (which is actually booker t. w's, word for word) that the protagonist makes in Invisible Man reminds me of LaVander's obsession with acquiring power as defined by white American culture. In both scenes, words and language play a role in seemingly acquiring (false) recognition among whites. And what's interesting is that the disturbing scene in Ellison, where the boys' sexualities are controlled and manipulated by the use of a naked white woman's body, is answered by City's ability to explore his own complex feelings of physical/emotional admiration and sexuality. Re: Toni not being included in this affair I think is Kiese showing us how Black female intellect in real life is disregarded within the institution. But, he gives us Shalaya Crump who City is enamored with, and later Biaze, who are both, in City's eyes, brilliant and interesting females... so even when institutions don't recognize that brilliance, we're able to validate it within our interpersonal relationships, which in the end matters most to City.
Good points, Rosa. I read Invisible Man with the group earlier this year and I definitely see some connections. In Mr. Laymon's interview that I posted earlier (and that I now see is included at the end of Long Division), he says that he "wanted to create a book that was in conversation with Kindred, Invisible Man, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, The Bluest Eye, The Catcher in the Rye, The Color Purple, Black Boy, The White Boy Shuffle, and all those 'classics' my mother would make me read before I was allowed to go outside." I'm slightly alarmed to realize I haven't read any of the other books on his list yet, although I've read excerpts from Huckleberry and I've seen the movie The Color Purple. I've heard other people mention Kindred already, and I'd be interested if anyone sees connections with other books on his list.That rings true about Toni. I also really liked the portrayals of Shalaya and Baize, and since we only really saw them through City's eyes, I appreciated how City valued their intelligence and assertiveness.
I've just finished the book, but I'll make a comment on the first half since we're still discussing that: I got caught up in the humor so much that Mr. Laymon really blindsided me with a lot of the darker and more disturbing aspects later on. Both the attack on City and then that scene in the wood shed at the end of the first half!
Yes, excellent points, Rosa. I didn't make the comparison between Invisible Man's battle royal until you mentioned it. I reread Invisible with the group (what a difference a couple of decades makes!). Michael, the only other books I've read are Huck Finn, The Bluest Eye & The Color Purple. All the others are on my to-read list.I'm also reading a biography on Toni Morrison. She's described as "not [being] content to merely retell stories from the past. she also wants to refocus our perspective so the values of the people who live the events she describes in her books can serve as sources of survival for people living today." I think Kiese picks up Morrison's baton and conveys that as time passes, your people's survival skills and talents keep improving to the point where you can live, but will require an understanding of the past and of your own history in order to flourish.
Parts of the second half remind me of The Color Purple; but Long Division as a character in the story, brings to mind all of the mail Celie's husband hid under the floor boards. The internalized racism of The Bluest Eye is throughout, just not as tragic due to all the humor.
Mod
Laymon said (paraphrasing) if he had to do it over he would make the 1985 period sharper. It wasn't as good as he would like. Personally, I wasn't that crazy about '64 either but I totally enjoyed 2013. Of course having the setting present day would've been an entirely different book. Did you prefer one period over the other or thought the writing or period portrayal lacking at all?
I was a little confused by the Jewish guys character. (forgotten his name). While he was well represented in 1985 and 64 I don't recall him having anything to do with 2013. I kept waiting for his relevance to what I considered the main story...2013. And what was Laymons point in creating the jewish character...surely Jews (other than freedom riders) in deep rural Mississippi were as rare as hens teeth in the sixties...(correct me if I'm wrong Ms. discussants) I do recall the famous case of 2 Jews being lynched in Atlanta in the early 1900's. Perhaps Laymon was trying to remind us of this episode? But why have the Klan force the Jews to pose as the Klan and set fire to the Black meeting house? I'm sure there were enough real Klan around to do the job. Was this an attempt to remind readers that Jews (along with the Irish and Italians) until very recently were NOT considered part of the "White Race" as the character repeatedly tells City. Although Irish and Italians have since assimilated and been absorbed into the category "White People/race" Jews still share a bit of the outsider/otherness of Blacks. It seemed to me that a smart intelligent person like City would have been aware of these facts and the history of Black and Jewish interaction in a way that he would not be so shocked at the Jewish characters claims of not being White. And didn't City give Shalayla up to him in the end...even though earlier Baize said she was City and Shay's daughter?.. Or are we to assume that after the book ended City went back and took her back from him???
I am wait late on this one. I didnt realize my other library had this until I was looking at the recommend section briefly just before I checked out. I will enjoy looking at everyones comments.
Tiffany wrote: "Yes, excellent points, Rosa. I didn't make the comparison between Invisible Man's battle royal until you mentioned it. I reread Invisible with the group (what a difference a couple of decades makes..."Thanks for the comments, Tiffany. I'm going to have to move Toni Morrison higher on my to-read list, I am long overdue.
I finished it but I stopped enjoying it about midway through. Can someone please explain what happened with the dude in the shed and WHY? What was the point of that?
William wrote: "I was a little confused by the Jewish guys character. (forgotten his name). While he was well represented in 1985 and 64 I don't recall him having anything to do with 2013. I kept waiting for his r..."Those are some good questions and analysis, William. The fact that City kept calling him "Jewish Evan Altshuler" made it harder for me to remember his name (I had to go find it in the book), almost like he was a placeholder for the Jewish perspective. I thought it unfortunate that his involvement actually seemed to take some of the accountability off of the white folks enacting the crimes in 1964, even though he kept assuring us the Klan threatened his family, for example, that was never shown to us like it could have been.
It actually didn't surprise me that the 1984 City was a little naive; unless I was reading it wrong, he seemed mostly interested in developing his "Game" for Shalaya. 2013 City seemed more informed and aware of historical contexts. I thought this was making a statement on how we ourselves become more enlightened/wise/prepared with each generation. For this reason alone I found the earlier times more depressing, even though plenty of disheartening things were happening in 2013.
Then the whole 1964 storyline was confusing to me. I wasn't totally sure what they were trying to do. At first it seemed they failed since City's grandfather was killed anyway, but then they stopped the meeting house fire and City saw in 2013 that it was now a vital community museum. But it was the least fleshed out of all the time periods, which seemed like a weakness since it affected everything else. And I just didn't find it believable that one extra 14 year old in 1964 could have changed the future of race relations in this community, unless she is assassinating or saving key people, which wasn't mentioned. Or maybe it was just implied that the history was saved by virtue of the museum's existence, and that was still an important change? Maybe I am missing a more profound statement here?
I just finished... I had stopped reading the thread because I wanted to immerse myself in the book, give it all my attention and come back. I feel.... Some kind of way and I can't even describe what it is. I am going to digest, read the thread, then try to come back and say something intelligent.
I have a similar feeling. I've read it and had time to think about it and I still feel like I missed a lot of things. All I know for sure is that I liked it and am interested in reading his other book
Londa wrote: "I finished it but I stopped enjoying it about midway through. Can someone please explain what happened with the dude in the shed and WHY? What was the point of that?"I'm with you Londa...what was that all about?...and why was he also reading Long Division?
Rashida wrote: "I just finished... I had stopped reading the thread because I wanted to immerse myself in the book, give it all my attention and come back. I feel.... Some kind of way and I can't even describe wha..."I feel exactly the same way.
I never heard or seen this author before until it was selected as a group read. I finally got it from the library this week and started reading today. I guess I am lost on the witty, humor, and so far the liking of this book. So far, I am just not getting it! I read up to 50 pages and skimmed though the ending, so far, strongly disliking it. Maybe to me, it reads like a journal of the sorts or essay instead of a novel. Then again, I normally wouldn't pick up this type of read unless it was selected for a reading through a book club, or group reading like this.
Columbus wrote: "Rashida wrote: "going to try to keep up with the discussion on this one. Our past months' selections have been so popular that I haven't gotten them from the library and read until much after, if ..."Sorry didn't like Americanah either, I only enjoyed brief parts of that book and skimmed through the rest to complete the reading.
Columbus wrote: "Several people have mentioned the authors writing style. Do you prefer his fiction (albeit it's his only fiction title thus far ) to his non-fiction, essay and blog work?"Unsure since I never read his work until today. But based on this writing style, I guess I could accept essay writing quicker.
William wrote: "Londa wrote: "I finished it but I stopped enjoying it about midway through. Can someone please explain what happened with the dude in the shed and WHY? What was the point of that?"I'm with you Lo..."
I thought it symbolized the anger at whites/racism in the African American families (all of it hidden from White eyes), but it seemed a bit extreme from what we knew of City's Grandma. Later it seemed to be implied that he had killed City's grandfather, so Grandma and Uncle Relle's actions made a little more sense, but I couldn't figure out if Pot Belly was supposed to have gone back in time to do this, since he had the Long Division book? Again, I thought the themes in this book were poignant, but the time travel stuff was not clear to me at all.
Like others have posted, I have been having a hard time coming up with my overall assessment of the book. Maybe I will have to do a reread after some time has passed.Despite my ambiguity, one of the things that stood out for me while reading was the ebb and flow of insight in City's observations and conversations. One minute he would be talking about trying to make Shalaya "his girl", or trying to out-talk LaVander, and in the very next sentence he would make a powerful observation about love or identity or something else. It was fun and disorienting at the same time; I came to look forward to the next a-ha moment.
Another thing that I found really startling and refreshing, was City's ability to go to places of vulnerability. Two examples:
"... no white person had ever put their hands on me. Ever. I had lost some battles at school with LaVander Peeler and felt like I had lost on that stage a few days earlier, but in those situations, I always thought I could fight back. Even if I lost...
This was completely different.
All I could do after getting my chest smashed into the ground and being called a n----- by those white men was hope it all stopped hurting. That was it." (p.95)
"I thought about those two words: 'So sad.'
'You know that I never told anyone on earth that I'm so sad?' I told him. 'I'm serious. Even after all that stuff happened on TV the other day. I never thought to tell someone that it all made me feel so sad. But that's the truth. That's what I felt.'" (p.156)
I was moved by City's expressions of helplessness and sadness in these two passages. Seeing him talk about these places of vulnerability was a nice contrast to his swagger and posturing with LaVander at the beginning of the book. And it was nice to see these qualities presented in a male character, and a Black male character. This feels like one of the main arcs of the book, because it is what allows him to explore his genuine love for LaVander, and both the 1985 and 2013 stories end on that theme.
I loved City's openness and vulnerability also, Michael. And his great insights.
Evelyn wrote: "I have a similar feeling. I've read it and had time to think about it and I still feel like I missed a lot of things. All I know for sure is that I liked it and am interested in reading his other book"I agree. I finished it last week, and while reading I felt like I was only "getting" certain parts of it. I enjoyed his writing style, especially in the beginning, but I felt completely lost by the end. Luckily, I enjoyed it enough to want to read his other work. I have a feeling I will take to his essays much more easily.
Londa wrote: "I finished it but I stopped enjoying it about midway through. Can someone please explain what happened with the dude in the shed and WHY? What was the point of that?"I was very confused by this as well. I kept trying to picture an old southern high falutin' christian sweet grandmother torturing a man in her shed and it just didn't seem believable. At one point, I thought it was placed in the book as something humorous, or maybe even a fantasy revenge type situation for our grandmother's generation to get pay back for their suffering (humiliation, losing husbands and children to terrorist tragedies, etc), until the ending alluded to her not getting away with the torture/murder.
Literary Fiction by People of Color
Books mentioned in this topic
How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America (other topics)How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America (other topics)
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (other topics)
Invisible Man (other topics)
Long Division (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Percival Everett (other topics)Kiese Laymon (other topics)
Kiese Laymon (other topics)
Kiese Laymon (other topics)
That is sensational. I just love that image!