Ruin and Rising
discussion
Should the Darkling & Alina be endgame?
The reason why I don't think the Darkling would die as a hero is because he has too much blood on his hands, disfigured Genya, and gauged his own mother's eyes out.Now you gotta admit that something to excuse all of the Darkling's cruelty would either be bullshit or one hell of a miracle to convince everyone he's actually a hero.
I and a couple of others have already called shots that if Leigh goes this route, the Darkling will just be another tortured momma's boy with every hidden excuse in the book for every action he made like Warner from the Shatter Me series, which would actually disappoint me just like Ignite Me did.
Vindictev wrote: "with every hidden excuse in the book for every action he made like Warner from the Shatter Me series, which would actually disappoint me just like Ignite Me did. "But just look at the rating of this book. As opposed to Evertrue (the Everneath series). Just saying.
WinterRose wrote: "Here's some food for thought. What if Alina is a reincarnation? What if the original amplifiers were made for her, just as the Darkling suggests? He's really set that she has them, as if they belong to her. Based on the blurb for R&R, I have a feeling her past is tied with his."This is actually a great theory. I've been thinking about it too and suppose it is quite probable. Yes, especially if you look into the synopsis:
"...as she begins to unravel the Darkling's secrets, she reveals a past that will forever alter her understanding of the bond they share and the power she wields."
And how he said he'd been waiting for her for a very long time. Like he knew someone like her should exist.
What if they really need to balance out each other?
What if the Darkling is under some kind of curse?
Great points, WinterRose :)
"I felt the same way about Jamie. I would have bet real money that nothing would ever make me like him, and then... GRRM hits me over the head and I completely changed my mind."I know right? I NEVER imagined I'd grow to like him. (I have to admit I only watch the show, but I've got the first book and plan on reading it.) His journey is excellent though and I can't believe I like him now.
"In my opinion, there are only two characters that I loathe and are beyond redemption in this series: the King and the Apparat."
Agree completely.
"The Darkling is interesting. He's hardened himself, as you would if you lived hundreds of years."
I REALLY appreciate this to be honest. I feel like so many author's take immortal characters (or near immortal) and make them typical horny teenage boys that don't act their age. The Darkling speaks and behaves like someone who has lived many years, which I think is important.
That's a good point about the Darkling being in Ravka so long. I never thought about that. From what I've seen, Ravka treats Grisha well and the other countries don't. I wonder if he's originally from another country. Or maybe he's responsible for the better treatment of Grisha in Ravka.
"The only difference in our perception is that we sympathize with Alina because we know her POV."
EXACTLY. I've always said that about The Hunger Games as well. If the books were in Foxface or Clove's POV, Katniss would be a villain. The villain varies based on who is telling the story. I'm also curious what the Darkling wants to change. I can't argue if he wants better treatment of the Grisha and wants to end wars. The fold he seems to want to use as a threat, not necessarily to wipe out countries.
"Personally, I don't think his power is bad. Light and shadow are neutral things. If night never came, we'd be a sad bunch."
I agree. Power, and even wanting power, doesn't make a person bad. (Hello, Daenerys, my lovely queen who is taking back her throne with fire and blood). It's what they DO with their power that determines it.
But I meant it more metaphorically lol. Not necessarily that he needs to be able to control light, but that he needs some warmth to his coldness. Alina makes a comment that there is darkness in her and he had put it there, so it made me wonder if her light (again, metaphorically) can leak into him. If that makes sense?
I have a feeling what Alina will learn is that the world will fall out of balance should one of them die. As you said, there needs to be darkness as well as light. I think we're going to be blown away with revelations and uncovered pasts next book.
"However, I do wonder what the bite he inflicted on Alina means."
I wondered if maybe it was a tracker, a way he can find her. Or maybe that's what allowed her to call to him and he could appear.
"What if the Darkling is under some kind of curse?"
I considered this too. Especially that a short story called "the demon in the wood" is coming out that ties into R&R.
"Please share your theory."
I've got a few, haha. But the reincarnation theory stemmed from me wondering if the Darkling and Alina knew each other from another life. I mean there's this:
"I've seen what you truly are, and I've never turned away. I never will." (Maybe my favorite line in the entire book it's a powerful one)
Also, I just couldn't figure out why the Darkling is so set that Alina is meant to have the amplifiers. Why not try to use them himself?
Is there a prophecy? Were they originally made for her, and not for Morozova? Did he create them for the sun summoner, who was meant to balance the Darkling? Who was the sun summoner before Alina? Or has it always been her and she doesn't know it? So many questions!
I also considered if maybe Baghra was the Black Heretic and the Darkling took the blame. I can't remember if he ever actually admits he was the Black Heretic, or if Baghra is the only one who says it. I realize this probably isn't true, but it would be super interesting if it was.
Just imagine the trouble that could have been saved if the Darkling had said: Look Alina, this king is an idiot and these wars need to stop. Let's use the fold as a threat to other countries, telling them we can control it and if they don't get their shit together and stop fighting, and stop mistreating Grisha, we're marching the fold to their door. Ready, break!
Lol I don't know. I'm just curious what his next move was going to be after finding the stag had Alina not ran away.
"Know that I loved you. Know that it was not enough."What if this is the Darkling?
This is past tense, maybe even as if recalling a memory or the past. If Alina was talking to Mal, or Mal talking to Alina, why not say: "Know that I LOVE you. Know that it was/is not enough."
Back to the Darkling/Alina knowing each other/having a past we don't know about yet theory...what if this is Alina uncovering the past, and the Darkling admitting he had loved her, but it was not enough to drag him off his path of seeking power or enough to save her or who knows..it just wasn't enough okay! lol
Yeah I don't know it's late I just thought it sounded like something the Darkling might say. lol
WinterRose wrote: ""Know that I loved you. Know that it was not enough."What if this is the Darkling?
This is past tense, maybe even as if recalling a memory or the past. If Alina was talking to Mal, or Mal talki..."
This makes sense to me. Especially as to WHY Alina or Mal would be saying such a thing to each other if they already know they love each other? If I told someone I loved them about a gazillion times, why would I say it again in such a strange form? Yeah, and the past tense used in this quote can't apply to Mal/Alina, unless one of them decided to call it quits and move on.
WinterRose wrote: "I REALLY appreciate this to be honest. I feel like so many authors take immortal characters (or near immortal) and make them typical horny teenage boys that don't act their age. The Darkling speaks and behaves like someone who has lived many years, which I think is important."OMG I laughed so hard at this one. I mean you can't help but notice it in just about every fantasy/paranormal book, right? I'm currently reading one where a 50-year old "teen" (virgin!) behaves the way that makes you think he is really 14 or something.
^ I know! I'm also reading the Fever series by Karen Marie Moning (definitely recommend by the way, it's urban fantasy) and I was so relieved her immortal characters actually sound immortal. lol The Darkling, thankfully, is convincing with his age.
Now that you guys have brought it up, God, Leigh Bardugo has really set him up in search a way that he could be the ultimate badie....Whoa.
After Shadow&Bone, that creeper Apparat reminded me of Claude Frollo from The Hunchback of Notre-Dame. You know, the way he stalked her around and watched her. So maybe we are really onto something with this Apparat the antagonist theory.
If Leigh Bardugo is actually ever reading these discussion threads, she must be laughing hard at our speculations, because she knows how it is going to be and we don't.
Natalia wrote: "Vindictev wrote: "with every hidden excuse in the book for every action he made like Warner from the Shatter Me series, which would actually disappoint me just like Ignite Me did. "But just look at the rating of this book. As opposed to Evertrue (the Everneath series). Just saying. "
And what does a Goodreads book rating have anything to do with how well written and sensible a book is? I't's obvious the rating is that high because 95% of the Shatter Me fanbase are Warnette fans, but hell, even though I'm a hardcore Warnette fan, I'm at least honest about the book's flaws and the bullshit excuses Mafi constantly had to pull out to make Warner seem perfectly innocent and victimized.
I wouldn't want Ruin and Rising to turn out the same way not only because it will just be like Ignite Me, but the Darkling disfiguring Genya and gauging his mother's eyes out all because he was possessed or cursed and he's completely innocent would be the stupidest thing, and that would never convince me.
I'm pretty sure the Darkling is conscious and aware of his actions, or maybe he really is a thousand year old "'creature" Leigh described him as hitting on Alina.
That actually reminds me of the dream Alina has in Shadow and Bone where she was looking at a volcra and it had the same gray-quartz eyes as the Darkling.I doubt Leigh wrote that part for no reason. She said everything she writes has some meaning behind it, and it makes me believe more that the Darkling is just a monster in disguise.
Is the Darkling evil? Yes.Has he done unforgivable things? Yes.
Has he shown time and time again he's power-obsessed? Yes.
Does he deserve redemption? Yes, everyone has a right to make up for past mistakes. To quote Oscar Wilde: "Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future."
Does this "Redemption" mean we'll forgive everything the Darkling has done? No, but we can try to understand why he does what he does.
I'm just going to say it. I don't think the Darkling is evil, at least not my definition of evil. And I'm not just saying that because Leigh said he isn't. "I did what I had to." - S&B
His downfall, and his strength, is the fact that he is detached from personal feelings so they cannot overrule his decisions. He puts logic and reason before emotion. (Usually. Alina seems to have "made him a fool" as he said a few times, ha.) He is also very much a "the end will justify the means" and "the greater good" type of character.
But I don't think it makes him evil. I think he's a very gray character, existing between white and black.
Because she betrayed him by letting Alina go. So did Baghra. I hated that he really went for the jugular (took away what they valued most: Baghra's sight and Genya's beauty) but from his perspective, I understood why he punished them.I'm very intrigued by Genya and the Darkling's deal they made. I hope we get more backstory on that.
I think that because he is so caught in his ideas that he is willing sacrifice others for his version of the "greater good."
I'm just going to point out the fact that Mal is not the perfect cupcake that everyone makes him out to be either. If anything, Alina is better off alone. Mal lashes out at her instead of trying to understand her and how does anyone think their relationship is healthy? Mal makes out with Zoya and STILL blames Alina and you know what Alina does? She decides she wants to ignore it and just run away with him instead and ignore her entire country. She is in this messed up mind set that she HAS to please Mal and can never disappoint him. I do not have the passage with me, but after they fought and she woke up to the what she thought was Mal kissing her, she literally said something like "I don't care if he kissed Zoya as long as he has come back and I'm not alone." She would rather ignore her boyfriends mistakes than being alone. As far as I can see none of the romantic relationships in this series are really that healthy if we want to discuss that.People say how awful the Darkling is for letting all those people die, but Alina herself said she also let them die to KEEP MAL SAFE while the Darkling was doing it for his own purpose just like her(one that is more than likely to be for the greater good for the ENTIRE COUNTRY rather then some useless tracker). Also Leigh keeps saying she does not consider the Darkling to be a villain from what she knows of him. We do not know any of these characters as well as we think they do. Mal clearly has an asshole side to him that a lot of people are willing to ignore but the more it continues to come out, the less likely I can see Alina having a happy ending with him.
So in terms of the "fandom forgiving the Darkling" why does NO ONE point of the fandom forgiving Mal. Yes he did not kill people and harm them but a shitty thing is still a shitty thing.
Just because a guy is the "good guy" does not make him a good guy and does not make him the RIGHT guy for the girl.
His flirting aside, I don't consider Nikolai as a love interest for Alina. He is a fun character though.
Stacey, I'm right there with you. There are unhealthy aspects to all of Alina's love interests. She just doesn't seem to see it with Mal, because she's always put him on a pedestal. She takes all the blame for almost every fight. Relationships work both ways. Alina isn't the only one at fault for their problems.
Stacey wrote: "I'm just going to point out the fact that Mal is not the perfect cupcake that everyone makes him out to be either. If anything, Alina is better off alone. Mal lashes out at her instead of trying to..."That's true, but perhaps she would make a point of "Alina has all these possible suitors but she is stronger and will be able to find out who she is and who she wants to be better ALONE." I don't know. I just see the best outcome is Alina cutting her romantic ties with the guys and perhaps ruling with the Darkling. (Because most of the conflict in this novel could be done away with if they would both just actually communicate with each other and stop making assumptions and work together.)
I don't really see anything unhealthy as far as Nikolai is concerned but Alina was using him for her own purpose and he kinda let it happen and I can't see her suddenly romantically falling for him.
And of course, the Darkling IS at least a little bit attracted to Alina's power and he did all of those horrible things and tried to control her, so of course their relationship isn't the healthiest either.
And I already went into the faults of her relationship with Mal.
So really, I think she is best with no one romantically. But I think it would be a lot of wasted potential if she didn't end up ruling with the Darkling. I can't see it just being her or just being him, I think it has to be the both of them.
WinterRose wrote: "I know right? I NEVER imagined I'd grow to like him. (I have to admit I only watch the show, but I've got the first book and plan on reading it.) His journey is excellent though and I can't believe I like him now."The show is a great and chances are you'll love the books. The characters are so complex and rich, and the many plot twists will just make your head spin (but mostly in a good way). I think you will enjoy reading about Jamie and Brienne's friendship. It's just so beautiful. And Daenery's novella, which was written separately and then incorporated into the first volume in the series, is just one of my favorite parts of that book: powerful and moving. (It actually won an award on its own.)
On origins I: Loving Bahgra
You talk about the Darkling origins and this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. We know so far about Bahgra, but so little of her and about her. If the Darkling is hundreds of years old, I think it's safe to assume Bahgra must be around a thousand, who knows if more. She is, in my opinion, a really well rounded characterization of an immortal. She is absolutely no-nonsense and straightforward, so weary and wise. She's been around for so long, she's even stopped caring about material possessions. (She could live like a Queen, you know?) However, she's not without a weakness: her son.
What would have happened if Alina didn't listened to Bahgra? For me, this is not too hard to imagine. The Darkling would have made Alina his lover. He would have convinced her to use their combined powers to stop the war and... If they got the amplifier, I think the end result would be more or less the same. Let me explain. The Darkling would have still used the Fold to cause such fear in his enemies that ensured Ravka would be left alone. He would have expanded the Fold anyway to send a clear message, because that was his plan all along. Even if it weren't at Novokribirsk, and he decided to expand it on enemy territory Alina would still be horrified to be a part of it. The relationship between Alina and the Darkling would be even worse, because she would feel horribly used as a weapon and as a person.
What Bahgra did was extreme but it was out of love and I'm sure she thought it was the best option. It was a big sacrifice. She knew Darkling would make her pay. So far, she's been right about her fears and she's just suffered too much. Can we just forgive her for interfering?
I hope Bahgra plays a bigger role in R&R. (By the way, I'm not sure the Darkling has ever openly admitted to being the Black Heretic, but when Alina confronts him for lying he doesn't deny it.) She's the only one who understands the big picture regarding the three amplifiers. The Darkling only suspected they existed, while she simply knew. I'm sure she knows a lot more than she tells him. She's so ancient, I wouldn't be surprised if she actually knew Morozova and the first Grisha (ie. the Saints) as well. There is so much mystery surrounding their pictures: Why does St. Ilya's chains are broken? What does one break free from by using them? Did the Saints really die, powerful as they were? Who killed them and why?
I have the nagging suspicion the Darkling is out of his league when it comes to Alina's fate after combining the three amplifiers. And in all truth, grouchy, powerful, old ladies are inspiring so... Bring back Bahgra!!!
On Origins II: Who's your daddy?
Given the fact that everyone in this book has a missing or broken family, I'm preparing for some shocking revelations in R&R. Could Alina be a direct descendant of Morozova? What happened to him anyway? I mean, he was the first grisha to have these three amplifiers and he did not live to tell the tale... or did he? What's the deal with Mal, is grisha blood in his family too? Who's Darkling's father and does it matter? (If Bahgra's always had that temper, he must have been a very brave man :)) )
Who's Nikolai's father? I'm pretty sure it's not the King. And here, I'll conclude with what has to be my worst crackpot theory ever. Last night, it was late and I was re-reading S&S... it was all about Nikolai. I noticed how Alina kept finding similarities between him and the Darkling. There is even a speech that Nikolai gives about the importance of making your enemies fear you that sounds just exactly like the Darkling. He's got this crazy, almost obsessive love for Ravka and power, that also echoes the Darkling. He's handsome, cunning and a good strategist, like the Darkling. And so, you see where I'm going. I had a moment of "Oh dear God, are we heading towards a 'Luke, I am your father" scene?" Then, I realized that while Darkling bedding the Queen would not be the most original political move ever, I just probably needed some sleep. But wouldn't that make for one hell of a plot twist? :))
Seriously, I hope no one is related.
More random questions that need answers
I cannot understand, for the life of me, why did the Darkling's first coup fail? I mean, is the First Army that good? The Darkling is smart and powerful and had at that point a solid Second Army, right?
Is Nikolai working with the Apparat? At some point in S&S he's telling Alina how only his most trusted people knew Stormhund's real identity. Among those are Tolya and Tamar. Does that mean the twins fooled him into believing their loyalty was with him? They do not seem cunning enough to outsmart him, really. Or did he know of their link to the Apparat? Could the Apparat have promised Nikolai aid to the throne in exchange for access to Alina, through the twins?
I've also been thinking more about Alina's wound. It has linked her to him in a different way than the amplifiers. When she enters the fold after being bitten, she understands and empathizes with the darkness. She sees and hears everything differently. Could it be that Darkling wanted her to literally be able to see things from his perspective? Not necessarily as a way to control her but as a way to make himself understood?
Also, does the wound protect her from further bites from his monsters? Perhaps, big leap here, he wanted to protect her from what he did to Genya... in other words from himself?
WinterRose wrote: ""Know that I loved you. Know that it was not enough."What if this is the Darkling?
This is past tense, maybe even as if recalling a memory or the past. If Alina was talking to Mal, or Mal talki..."
That quote really makes me sad because it sounds like last words, for some reason. You know, like someone is about to do something very stupid and they are saying goodbye.
I hope Alina and the Darkling don't end up being starcrossed lovers... that he's waited for her for hundreds of years just to be too late or something. That would be painful to watch.
Gabrielle wrote: "By the way about Nikolai how did he change his appearance again I thought only Genya could do that?You guys are making me so excited for the new book!
I don't think the Darkling is bad guy not ..."
I had the same question about Nikolai's face. It turns out that Tamar, one of the twins (the gigantic guy) is a heartrender and a also a "tailor", just like Genya. They make fun of it in the book. I had completely missed it the first time I read it.
I love Genya too. If you want to know more about her backstory and her deal with the Darkling, you need to read the short story called "The Tailor." Here's the link,
http://www.scribd.com/doc/143207221/T...
I hope she and Alina can be friends again. Because while it is true that she lied to Alina, she is also a true friend and I think she's proved it.
As far as we know, Nikolai is not grisha. But since we don't know his father and he's full of surprises, the truth is... who knows? :)
"I've also been thinking more about Alina's wound. It has linked her to him in a different way than the amplifiers."I'm glad you brought this up because I meant to post on it. When the Darkling appears in her/his bedchamber, Alina mentions that the wound on her shoulder prickles just before it happens. I wonder if it sort of opened up their connection even more, which allowed her to (as you said) see things from his pov and also, perhaps, allow her to call to him and for him to appear to her.
"Also, does the wound protect her from further bites from his monsters? Perhaps, big leap here, he wanted to protect her from what he did to Genya"
That's a good theory too. Also since the Darkling made the comment that the volcra don't feed on each other. Maybe the "nothing's" and volcra won't, in fact, go after her. OR maybe they now see her as someone who can command them as well, since she technically did at the end anyway. I just remembered her line about how the volcra and the monsters were hers, and the Darkling was her monster too.
Regarding Nikolai..
I don't trust Nikolai entirely. He's so often compared to a clever fox and I've learned from Teen Wolf to NEVER trust a fox. (If you watch that show you know what I mean haha)
"I hope Alina and the Darkling don't end up being starcrossed lovers... that he's waited for her for hundreds of years just to be too late or something."
I'm preparing for something tragic like this. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the Darkling and Alina have a past we don't know about.
"I doubt you have any idea what you are."
"We all have our secrets."
"You don't understand at all." "Are you going to explain it to me?" "Not right now, no."
"I've seen what you truly are and I've never turned away. I never will."
Those are just a few of the many quotes that lead me to believe there is some deep stuff we don't know yet.
Cari wrote: "WinterRose wrote: ""Know that I loved you. Know that it was not enough."That quote really makes me sad because it sounds like last words, for some reason. You know, like someone is about to do something very stupid and they are saying goodbye."
Those may refer to the supposed past Alina and Darkling shared. Maybe he means that he did love her once, but it wasn't enough to stop her from doing something stupid and/or possibly power-greedy that got them both cursed/punished/whatever. So now he's careful not to do the same mistake twice and fall in love again, but he can't help wanting her. Like he said, "the problem with wanting is that it makes us weak".
WinterRose wrote: "I just remembered her line about how the volcra and the monsters were hers, and the Darkling was her monster too."You are right... Then I don't know... Ah, Darkling, so twisted even when you (may) mean well... could he have meant to do something actually good by that bite? It has all of these good "side effects." It almost gives Alina an advantage, you know. Before he could become invisible in the shadows and not for her anymore.
I know Genya's bites are different but I wonder if she could also experience some of these things that Alina is now able to.
Alina will not be happy if Darkling dies. I've been noticing in S&S how she only refers to "defeat" him and "stop" him, but never kill him. He may die in the end, but she will be devastated. I don't see that as a happy ending for her at all.
"I've seen what you truly are and I've never turned away. I never will."
I remember this and also I remember saying to myself "This is too much. Can't even register..."
Does he mean she's some kind of creature and not a person? Why say what and not who? It's kind of worrisome.
Also unrelated but... doesn't it baffle you how someone can be grisha and other grisha, right next to them, do not know? I mean the Darkling was in Nikolai's ship completely surrounded by grisha, and powerful ones at that, and he didn't have a clue.
Also, Alina's observations are usually meaningful. She knew something was off with Stormhund when even the Darkling himself failed to notice. And, I'm beating a dead horse here but... she keeps comparing him to the Darkling. Perhaps she's just realizing that the very things she doesn't like in the Darkling (power-hungry, manipulative, fear-inducing, etc) are a trait common in most people who aspire to rule. But I wonder if there could be more to that as well? Wasn't it surprising to you how much Nikolai seems to know and understand about the Morozova amplifiers? That doesn't seem to be common knowledge.
I'm just saying that it's worth a second look perhaps. There could be a hint of things to come. Any ideas?
Natalia wrote: "Cari wrote: "WinterRose wrote: ""Know that I loved you. Know that it was not enough."That quote really makes me sad because it sounds like last words, for some reason. You know, like someone is ab..."
I like your positive spin on it. I don't know why I feel like there's an impending doom.
You know what could really have changed everything? If the Darkling had come clean in S&S and told her at least something of this past or whatever it is that he knows but doesn't want to tell.
Alina is doing the best she can with what little she knows. He will just not say anything. She doesn't know him and he still pretends that she trusts him blindly. He's much more experienced, he should know better than that. He's working against his own interests by withholding information. I think sometimes the Darkling is his own worst enemy.
@ Stacey,Well, you forget that Mal is Human. He feels insecure, useless, and unwanted while Alina is being kissed and paraded by Nikolai and The Darkling, two powerful men he has no chance against. That can cause an inferiority complex, and like normal humans do, if someone gives us attention, we feel wanted and loved and make stupid decisions just to have it. I think people should start putting themselves in Mal's shoes instead of quickly calling him a jerk when Alina lying to him is mostly the cause of everything bad happening.
Do I excuse Mal for every mistake he's done? No, but I understand why he made those mistakes and I don't continuously bash him for it because everyone makes mistakes and no one is perfect. I personally believe Mal would be a Gary Stu if he didn't have any fuck ups.
Leigh also answered a question on twitter concerning Mal about how people make mistakes and grow from it. I think Mal will get some major character growth and development in R&R.
Also, how is Alina being enslaved and under the Darkling's control or the Darkling under her control a healthier relationship than the one she has with Mal? The Darkling is very controlling. Hell, he even went as far as trying to kill Mal when it wasn't necessary. Can you explain how Alina will have a healthy relationship when the Darkling likes having complete control over her?
Alina and Mal were perfectly fine together and happy when they were alone and on the run. Obviously Alina was sick because she couldn't just use her powers and alert everyone of their presence when they're fugitives on the run, but she was still happy and very much in love with Mal. It wasn't until Alina started hiding things from Mal that they started to fall apart.
The conflicts Mal and Alina are facing in their relationship happen in real life. They're realistic, and if they weren't having any problems, I'd actually find it boring. Conflict makes things interesting, and it's why I think Leigh always throws a wrench between them and why I still have faith that Mal and Alina will be together in the end because they always have. I feel like they're essential to each other, and Mal will never be just a friend to Alina again.
"Know that I loved you. Know that it was not enough."
On the contrary, I believe that to be Mal telling Alina that he loved her but it wasn't enough to stop her from becoming the ruthless power-hungry person she's becoming. I'm a huge fan of angst though, so I'm not losing sleep over this quote at all.
As much as I want a happy ending and know there's a possibility for it, I actually believe there's a higher chance of Alina ruling as Queen alone or sacrificing herself to finish what she intended to end in S&S. Maybe she'll realize her and the Darkling are too powerful and dangerous for Ravka, and become a martyr to save everyone?
Maybe I just believe that Alina will become the Queen in the end because she has white hair now, and she's starting to remind me of Daeny from Game of Thrones. LOL.
Guys, there is something I don't understand. How could someone make the amplifiers we are talking about if they are living creatures in the first place. How could someone "make" a firebird? Or am I forgetting something?
Natalia wrote: "Guys, there is something I don't understand. How could someone make the amplifiers we are talking about if they are living creatures in the first place. How could someone "make" a firebird? Or am I..."Wait, elaborate please... What do you mean?
Cari wrote: "Wait, elaborate please... What do you mean? "I'm sorry if I'm confusing everyone, I don't really remember that stuff, but how Morozova amplifiers came to be at all? Can someone explain/remind me, please?
I really need to reread the series.
Natalia wrote: "Cari wrote: "Wait, elaborate please... What do you mean? "I'm sorry if I'm confusing everyone, I don't really remember that stuff, but how Morozova amplifiers came to be at all? Can someone expla..."
I don't think anyone knows at this point. It may be revealed in R&R.
Vindictev wrote: ""Know that I loved you. Know that it was not enough."
On the contrary, I believe that to be Mal telling Alina that he loved her but it wasn't enough to stop her from becoming the ruthless power-hungry person she's becoming. I'm a huge fan of angst though, so I'm not losing sleep over this quote at all."
Well, I've considered this as well but to me these are parting words. And Mal can not say goodbye to her, I think. I mean, the quote does apply to them: he does love her and it is not being enough because now she wants other things too. He can see as much. However, I cannot really see Mal leaving Alina. I know that a couple of times in S&S when he's angry and frustrated it looks like he just want to leave... but always he wants to leave together.
The only possibility that I see for him to say this and pretend he means it, is if he finally decides he will not help track the Firebird (because it could end up harming Alina). I can see him trying to convince her he doesn't love her anymore so that he can leave. (But of course he'd come back. I don't even think he could pull off that bluff.)
When Alina puts on the second amplifier and tries it, she has an experience that she describes as somehow ceasing to be, and this is not scary for her, but a great feeling of pure power. What will the third amplifier do? She could change completely and stop being a person altogether, transformed into this being of pure power or energy. If this becomes clear before they set to find the Firebird, and if she tells this to Mal (which let's face it, she won't), I see him refusing to do it. (Until, of course she convinces him.)
That Alina becomes a terrible, inhuman and powerful force looking at all the guys in her former life as if they were nothing more than flies would be an interesting, even fitting, ending, but it is not a YA ending. :)
GUYS!!!Did you hear??! On April 29th Tor.com will publish the story "The Little Knife" by Bardugo AND the first chapter of R&R as a bonus!!!
Cari wrote: "GUYS!!!Did you hear??! On April 29th Tor.com will publish the story "The Little Knife" by Bardugo AND the first chapter of R&R as a bonus!!!"
Do you mean as a freebie?
The other two stories are freebies, so I'm assuming this one will be too. But I don't know for sure.I mean it should be. It's the publisher's way of generating interest.
Also, this is turning out to be a great Monday. Leigh answered one if my questions AND gave a hint that solves one of the books mysteries.There are human amplifiers.
I will not elaborate on this because it may be considered a spoiler but .. *squeals*
Cari wrote: "Also, this is turning out to be a great Monday. Leigh answered one if my questions AND gave a hint that solves one of the books mysteries.There are human amplifiers.
I will not elaborate on this..."
As in, a spoiler for R&R? It can't be spoiler, just a theory. I'm curious. Can you hide it under spoiler warning AND elaborate? Do you mean that Mal can be one? If so, it isn't a spoiler, I've seen many people assume that already.
Natalia wrote: "Cari wrote: "Also, this is turning out to be a great Monday. Leigh answered one if my questions AND gave a hint that solves one of the books mysteries.There are human amplifiers.
I will not elab..."
Ok, if it's not considered a spoiler then yes, that has to be exactly what Mal is. However, based on LB last tweet about it, it's the worst possible news for team Mal. He would have to give his life in order for Alina to use his power.
If they can't find the Firebird, will it come to this? Oh God.
I don't have a twitter account yet. If possible, can you put this her tweet down here?And lets' make it clear - Mal (possibly) and Firebird are two different amplifiers, right? I just don't understand why she would ever want to "use" Mal? I can't believe she would ever become so power-hungry as to sacrifice her friend/boyfriend.
And I have to say that I have the biggest issue with them killing the creatures/amplifiers. I was so mad with the Darkling when he killed the stag. I could have strangled him with my bare hands at the moment I was so pissed. Why couldn't they, you know, just saw the horns off and let the poor stag live?
I don't want them to hunt the Firebird either. I love birds, and this particular one is a legend.
Vindictev wrote: "@ Stacey,Well, you forget that Mal is Human. He feels insecure, useless, and unwanted while Alina is being kissed and paraded by Nikolai and The Darkling, two powerful men he has no chance agains..."
I'm sorry this didn't come off as clear, I didn't really put out much of my view of the Darkling but I did try to point out that I KNOW the Darkling is controlling and that their relationship isn't healthy in the least bit and I never meant to imply that it's more healthy than Mal/Alina's - at least with what we know as of now - but I'm also saying that you cannot compare two relationships in order to justify one.
And yes, Mal is human. Yes, he can make mistakes. Yes, he can learn from them. Yes, he can grow. But that doesn't excuse his behavior By saying because Mal is human it is okay for him to lash out at Alina and act entitled to her (must I mention that he may as well have peed on Alina like a wounded puppy whenever Nikolai so much as mentioned that perhaps a marriage is best for Ravka without asking Alina if she agrees with him - that sounds a bit possessive too) then you may as well also say that because the Darkling is a powerful Grisha and has lived thousands of year it is okay for him to hurt people the way he has. Neither of them are justified. But if Mal can learn from his mistakes, then perhaps the Darkling can learn as well. Or maybe he has no mistakes to learn from, Leigh herself hinted that he may not have anything to be redeemed for, but that's besides my point right now.
And going back to the relationship aspect. Relationships do have obstacles and they do have to work things out, but Alina and Mal are 17 or 18, they are constantly on the run, Alina is supposed to be leading her people and yet they act like two 12 year olds with middle school dating drama. That is not the basis of starting a healthy relationship. A loving relationship would consist of two people trying to work things out but Mal (and Alina) have yet to really even try. Mal lashes out and doesn't try to help Alina and Alina tries to ignore that there are even issues. There is no way they can even learn from their mistakes when they pretend no problems exist. Not to mention that Alina has had a crush (assumed she's been in love) with Mal her ENTIRE LIFE. The only person she has had was Mal. The only person she has put her heart into was Mal. Of course she is going to think he is her everything and that he is who she should be with, but that doesn't mean it's true. She was happy with Mal, but look how quickly she became happy with the Darkling - or an image of the Darkling or whatever - I think she, at the very least, needs to spend a lot of time on her own and understanding who she is before making any promises of devotion to anybody is all I am saying.
Also side note: I'm sorry if my posts are all over the place and unorganized, I always have one thought coming and then forget about my last thought.
And I'd really rather not argue on this topic because I can't change my perspective of Mal and I understand if people can't change theirs on the Darkling or Mal/Alinas relationships. I just wanted to mention that I always see posts that people ignore the things the Darkling has done but as far as I can see if people are ignoring the Darklings faults (which I can't see because everyone I know that likes his character understand is twisted side) then equal if not more amount of people are ignoring Mals as well.
I think if the argument of "they're only human" can apply, than so should "they're not human" because the truth is, people are going to do things that reflect their being. (I always get up in arms when an author tries to convince readers that the character is a thousand year old immortal creature when they act like a 15 year old human. NO STAWP.) If we are willing to try to understand actions because a character is human, we should be willing to try to understand actions because a character is not human, you know?Humanity or immortality does not excuse behavior. It does, however, help us to understand their actions, choices, and behaviors. But we have to be willing to try to understand first, to try to see their perspective.
Oh yeah, I definitely think Mal is an amplifier. Or maybe an anti-amplifier. Leigh said to be used, the amplifier must give up it's life. (Meaning you can't take it like they did the stag and sea whip) So that means Alina would have no say if Mal decided to give up his life. BUT this could also mean the Darkling could give up his life to be used as well, couldn't it? He's not a human amplifier but still a living one.
Mal and the Darkling sacrifice themselves so Alina can destroy the fold the end. (lol that would be tragic)
(Part of me wants Alina to go power hungry crazy and end up on the throne all "off with their heads!" lol But that's not really a YA ending. Could be fun though.)
WinterRose wrote: "Leigh said to be used, the amplifier must give up it's life. (Meaning you can't take it like they did the stag and sea whip)"What do you mean? A human amplifier versus an animal amplifier?
Well I was just thinking how with the stag and sea whip, they had to be KILLED to be used. (Or in the case of the stag, the power went to Alina for sparing it's life..I still think that's iffy but oh well.)With human amplifiers, Leigh made a distinction by saying they have to GIVE UP their life. She didn't say the power went to the killer. It seems as though they must take their life for a person, if that person wants to use that power.
Or maybe it means that (using Mal as an example) Mal would have to give Alina the consent to kill him.
How long ago was the fold created?"He has served countless kings, faked countless deaths, bided his time, waiting for you."
I wonder if he was waiting BEFORE the fold, or if she's referring to after. More importantly, how did he know to wait? I'm so curious about all his secrets that it's killing me, haha.
And why wouldn't Baghra just kill Alina? How can she expect a very, very newly realized sun summoner to defeat the Darkling? She claims that she knew the Darkling was waiting for her, biding his time, so why not get rid of Alina before the Darkling can use her?
That sounds harsh, but rather than train Alina, why wouldn't Baghra try..anything else. lol Try to find a way to take her power away, have her kidnapped, etc. I just think expecting Alina to have the physical skills to defeat the Darklig is asking for something unrealistic. And asking her to run is not a solution.
I mean did Baghra really think Alina could run from the Darkling forever? Of course he'd never stop trying to find her. He's practically immortal. I don't think he's going to give up so easily. So what's the point in telling Alina to run?
What if telling Alina to run was a way to distract the Darkling? Didn't Baghra flee the palace after Alina? With the sun summoner gone, the Darkling would pursue her and that would be his main focus. Baghra could slip out without anyone paying her attention. Is she up to something we don't know about? I'm very curious now how the Darkling found out Alina was missing.
Natalia wrote: "I don't have a twitter account yet. If possible, can you put this her tweet down here?And lets' make it clear - Mal (possibly) and Firebird are two different amplifiers, right? I just don't unders..."
Can you see it here?
@lastmaiar yes, amplifiers are living creatures. but to be USED by a Grisha, the amplifier must give up its life.
— Leigh Bardugo (@LBardugo) March 24, 2014
Ok, I've been thinking about this and now I have more questions than answers.
Soooooooo: living amplifiers must be killed to be used, yes... but that is not necessarily the only way, right? I mean, the Darkling chooses to use his amplifier powers on Alina and he's still alive.
Does that mean a human amplifier does not have that option?
Condition 1: Skin to skin contact
Ok, this is what I've seen in the text: both the stag and the sea whip physically appear near them right AFTER Mal and Alina touch.
In S&B is immediately after the kiss, even during, I forget exactly. And in S&S, Mal and Alina have not seen each other for weeks, and because everyone is distracted by the other boat, they are able to come closer. He kisses her forehead and I think they hug and say two words and bam! The sea dragon emerges from the water.
Condition 2: Amplified power
Here I am confused. In both cases, Mal has been right, regarding his tracking instincts: he alerts people that they will see creature that day. But they wait and wait, and it only happens after Alina's touch.
So, who's amplifying who? Mal is not amplifying anything in Alina, right? It actually seems like it's the other way around: Alina's touch makes it possible for Mal to find the creature, or make it emerge or whatever it is this tracking power does.
So, according to this, I am not sure Mal is an amplifier for Alina, at least.
But, Alina on the other hand amplifies or improves if you will Mal's ability to track. Which makes sense because he's really good at finding human creatures and it seems that somehow she takes this ability an elevates it to the mythical realm.
However, what does that mean that she can amplify something in him?
As I see it, the Darkling, which then would be the other possible living amplifier, should not have to die because of this: he can already, willingly, help Alina amplify her powers.
Thoughts?
WinterRose wrote: "Or maybe it means that (using Mal as an example) Mal would have to give Alina the consent to kill him. "Ha! Alina would never agree! I wouldn't either, even if Mal was just a friend. But the more I read the blurb, the more it seems like this is exactly what is going to happen. The cost of destroying the Fold could be Mal's life.
"The firebird is the one thing that stands between Ravka and destruction—and claiming it could cost Alina the very future she’s fighting for."
Is Mal the Firebird? But no, this is crazy, can't be.
And even if I'm not team Mal, I don't want him to end up sacrificed too. I want everyone to live.
Cari wrote: "Natalia wrote: "I don't have a twitter account yet. If possible, can you put this her tweet down here?And lets' make it clear - Mal (possibly) and Firebird are two different amplifiers, right? I j..."
Cari, thanks, yes, I see it, I'll comment tomorrow, it's 3 a.m. and I need some sleep ;)
WinterRose wrote: "How long ago was the fold created?"He has served countless kings, faked countless deaths, bided his time, waiting for you."
I wonder if he was waiting BEFORE the fold, or if she's referring to a..."
Because Bahgra is good and wise, and the only voice of reason.. which more or less often sounds like this "Stupid kids, get off my lawn!!" XD
If your reincarnation theory is true, then Bahgra also knows that things need to run their course: you can bend the rules a bit but not break them completely by eliminating the players, altogether.
PS
The Fold must be as old the Darkling. I wonder if he turned into the Darkling after that experiment went awry, to try to fix it. He's also the creator of the Second Army, which if you think about it, has as a main role helping Ravka cross the Fold and maintain commerce and supplies necessary to survive. In other words, the Second Army is his "temporary fix" for the mess caused by the Fold, me thinks.
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More on this, please. I haven't even considered it. The Darkling is always saying that "you're meant to have them", "we're meant to rule," yada, yada. I've completely dismissed all of those comments as a manner of speech until now. Please share your theory.
WinterRose wrote: "I wonder if the Darkling became so dark because his equal hasn't been around? If the Darkling can give darkness to Alina, why couldn't she give light to him?"
Personally, I don't think his power is bad. Light and shadow are neutral things. If night never came, we'd be a sad bunch. I think he doesn't necessarily needs light. He just needs a new perspective. He's turned to be more in tune with "the dark side of the force" because of reasons not known to us. I mean, Alina is "good" and she mastered the cut in no time, right? Who knows if there is an army of light creatures she could also create, if she decided to go to her own "dark side of the force"? Alina could be every bit as terrible as the Darkling, if she wanted to. She has it in her because she's his counterpart.
So far, it doesn't look like grisha powers are aligned into god and bad, but the emphasis is that they exist within a balance. He's a unique Etherealki and so is she. They're supposed to work as a pair, as complimentary Etherealki do. How exactly? I'm not sure but that's how it looks.
However, I do wonder what the bite he inflicted on Alina means. That's different, to me at least. If he just meant to harm her, then it's only fair she does him the same favor. I don't know what could it be though.. a mini-cut from which light permanently shines? ;)