Ruin and Rising
discussion
Should the Darkling & Alina be endgame?
Cari, Yeah. Alina doesn't love the Darkling. She may be attracted to him because he understands her since their powers parallel each other, but that's about it. There's no solid proof that Alina loves the Darkling other than her wanting someone to understand what she's going through.
The Darkling doesn't care about Alina the girl either. He cares about Alina the Sun Summoner and the benefits she'll be as a weapon for him to spread fear and rule the country that he disguises as "saving". Bullshit.
I doubt that Mal will leave Alina for Zoya judging from the currant situation however, there is still another book to be read and you'd be surprised how much characters' allegiances can change in the course of one novel. So maybe in R&R there will be more time on the page for Mal and Zoya than there was in S&B and S&S for them to develop a relationship of sorts.
Also, before we judge a Darkling/Alina relationship we have to remember that we're are yet to discover more about the Darkling 'cause right now we know nothing other than the fact he's hundred of years old, powerful, and he is a living amplifier.
We don't know why he created the Shadow Fold, his real name, his motivations, his past, and even his true feelings for Alina once you strip away the power-lust - if he even does have any feelings for her once the power-lust is removed.
So, what I'm trying to say is: before we judge any relationship we need to not only look at what we do know but also what we don't know and make it from there.
PS. thank you to everyone who's participated on this thread!!!! When I first started it I wasn't sure if anyone was interested in this topic, so thanks to everyone who's gotten involved and sharing your incredibly detailed well-thought-out ideas and opinions.
Natalia wrote: "Why? Can't they just remain friends? That would make more sense to me. There is anything between Mal and Alina but passion and chemistry."
First of all, thank you for loving my wall of text!! I get carried away because I'm re-reading the books this week and I have all these feels and questions, which is driving me insane because Bardugo is really good at creating ambiguity.
I know all of the reasons why I want Alina and Mal together but the more I read, the more worried I get...
So here it goes, another WoT...
Does Alina love Mal... romantically or platonically?
Ahhh, this is the one that I'm trying to figure out. And by romantically, I mean as "a couple" for lack of better term.
First, I'll try to answer the easy question within this one, which is simply does she love him. Yes, we know she does, fiercely. She wouldn't have left those people to die in the fold otherwise. And from there, it just gets so confusing, I'm not sure what to think anymore.
It is undeniable that there is a serious problem with the lack of chemistry between Mal and Alina. The sparks do not fly. That is the main reason why most of the fandom prefers the Darkling. Leaving moral judgments aside, I do believe that Alina deserves to be with someone who makes her feel everything that you should feel when you are in love. I mean, aren't we all about the feels anyways!? :)
Let's go to a scene that I was reading today and that illustrates this problem of lack of chemistry. This is pretty much one scene in chapter 6, S&S. (I'm using my ancient e-reader, so forgive my lack of pages.) Alina is convincing Mal they need to get all three amplifiers. She is thinking about her new-found power:
"I thought of the surge of exultation that had come from using my power in the battle against the Darkling's horde, the way my body fizzed and thrummed... (...) The thought made me dizzy. (...) All that light, all that power. I want it all. A restless shiver moved over me."
My italics are mostly my reaction to how many phrases express emotion about this. I think we can agree power seems extremely pleasurable. Now to my utter dismay this scene ends like this:
"Mal traced the line of my throat, the curve of my cheek, and all the while he held my gaze. (...) He kissed me once, gently (...) there was something mournful in the brush of his lips."
Notice the lack of italics because she does not seem to feel anything. There is nothing but... a list!! And a very bare list at that. Thinking about her power makes her feel so many things and kissing Mal does not. I'm not considering the whole mournful thing because that doesn't reflect how she feels about Mal, I think. But mostly, it is Alina noticing his fear of loosing her (because of what she may become with the 3 amplifiers.)
Back to the topic at hand, that scene was just painful to re-read and simply because these paragraphs come one after the other and for me it's impossible not to compare. It's hard not to cringe (poor Mal) and wonder what's going on.
Mal and Alina have always been together. They are to each other the only family they have and the only home they've ever known. (For Alina, Keramzin was not a home until Mal arrived.) Also the fact that they're orphans, or as Alina says "abandoned," makes them feel a special kind of loyalty to each other. Sometimes it seems to me that to Mal and Alina letting go of each other is a betrayal, something similar to abandonment. Those are very strong bonds.
Alina is very much used to the idea of Mal being her platonic love, because that is what he was for many years. However, now that they could really be a couple something is not clicking. It's definitely not going the way you'd think it would. There could be many possible explanations for this, but unfortunately, there is not much textual evidence that helps support a good explanation. (The most I've found in terms of why the relationship deteriorates so much when they're at the Little Palace is simple: overthinking instead of communicating. But that's another WoT.)
That's what I meant when I said that they need to go past that wall. Somehow they need to figure out if there is passion in the equation at all, or perhaps they're both confusing feelings of loyalty to each other, and another type of love (whatever that may be) with romantic love.
Last but not least, is the scene at the end of S&S, when Mal finally tries to kiss Alina and she sees the Darkling. The Darkling says: "Tell him you see me when he takes you in his arms." Now, we know the Darkling says many things and that's not what called my attention. The reason why his words worry me is that, if his "visitations" are a response to Alina's call, we have to think that she was indeed, perhaps for an instant, thinking about the Darkling at the exact moment Mal's lips met hers, the only time that she and Mal had "been alone in weeks"(Mal's words.)
I know that far in the story they're just having lots of problems and they mostly argue... but there's an opportunity to be closer and Alina reacts in a way that I cannot understand. I don't know why she's upset when the Darkling appears in the room and then, after Mal leaves, she let's the Darkling sit with her and caress her hair when she cries.
Quite possibly, it's meant to be confusing because Alina herself is confused about her feelings.
And I'll stop here.
Vindictev wrote: "Cari, Yeah. Alina doesn't love the Darkling."
Well, the thing is that I'm not so sure. I think Alina is confused and it may be the case that she's in love with both, for different reasons.
We've talked about how the Darkling can be menacing but the thing is that by the end of R&R Alina will be his match, and probably even more. The Darkling and her are bonded by many things, physical (the collar, for instance) and emotional. He's the one who helped her discover her true self and they do have many things in common. I think they balance and compliment each other. Throughout S&S her attitude towards the Darkling is ambivalent and at times more open than with Mal. Even if we don't agree with many of things he has done, Alina and him are two of a kind.
If Alina renounces her "humanity," and becomes something else, perhaps there is little point in her staying with Mal. They would not make each other happy, if that were the case, imho.
It's complicated. T.T
@Cari I love your walls of text and I love how much you care, and in response to your WoT about how there's not passion between Mal and Alina. To further support your point, remember when Alina mistook the Darkling for Mal? When she was kissing the Darkling it wasn't a list there was passion.Here is the text:
“ALINA.”
I woke to the soft brush of Mal’s lips on mine, the barest touch to my temple, my eyelids, my brow. The light from the guttering flame on my bedside table glinted off his brown hair as he bent to kiss the curve of my throat.
For a moment, I hesitated, confused, not quite awake, then I wrapped my arms around him and pulled him closer. I didn’t care that we’d fought, that he’d kissed Zoya, that he’d walked away from me, that everything felt so impossible. The only thing that mattered was that he’d changed his mind. He’d come back, and I wasn’t alone.
“I missed you, Mal,” I murmured against his ear. “I missed you so much.”
My arms glided up his back and twined around his neck. He kissed me again, and I sighed into the welcome press of his mouth. I felt his weight slide over me and ran my hands over the hard muscles of his arms. If Mal was still with me, if he could still love me, then there was hope. My heart was pounding in my chest as warmth spread through me. There was no sound but our breathing and the shift of our bodies together. He was kissing my throat, my collarbone, drinking my skin. I shivered and pressed closer to him.
This was what I wanted, wasn’t it? To find some way to heal the breach between us? Still, a sliver of panic cut through me. I needed to see his face, to know we were all right. I cupped his head with my hands, tilting his chin, and as my gaze met his, I shrank back in terror.
I looked into Mal’s eyes—his familiar blue eyes that I knew even better than my own. Except they weren’t blue. In the dying lamplight, they glimmered quartz gray.
He smiled then, a cold, clever smile like none I’d ever seen on his lips.
“I missed you too, Alina.” That voice. Cool and smooth as glass.
Mal’s features melted into shadow and then formed again like a face from the mist. Pale, beautiful, that thick shock of black hair, the perfect sweep of jaw.
The Darkling rested one gentle hand on my cheek. “Soon,” he whispered.
As you can see, though she thought it was Mal, there was still passion between her and the Darkling.
Vindictev wrote: "Cari, (part 3 I'm on my phone sorry)When people say Mal might end up with Zoya, I laugh so hard because wow. I mean wow."
I don't think he would end up with Zoya, although as Summertime says, it's hard to know what plot twists we may see.
I mean my whole Zoya thing is a crackpot theory but it stems from the fact that Mal a) didn't do his duty which is completely out of character b)was "missing" for an entire night with a bottle of kvas and a broken heart and c) doesn't say anything about where he was when confronted. I mean, for all we know, he could have been drunk under a tree or doing a million things. But I was just thinking, wouldn't it be a complete "oh no, dear God whyyyyyy?" moment in R&R if Alina learned he had spend the night with Zoya? (A perfect "plot device" that could set all sorts of things into motion.)
I am not saying there's anything romantic on his part. Just think about it, again crackpot theory: Alina drops this bomb on him: she sees the Darkling everywhere. He wants a shoulder to cry on and also to talk with someone who knows the Darkling who can perhaps shed some light on what's going on... I know it's crazy but in my insane head it makes so much sense, I can almost swear it happened.
Summertime_Blues wrote: "I doubt that Mal will leave Alina for Zoya judging from the currant situation however, there is still another book to be read and you'd be surprised how much characters' allegiances can change in t..."I agree with you, we'll have to wait and see. (But I can't wait!!!) A lot can change in that final book, which is why I'm dissecting the two previous ones in this re-reading.
I laughed so hard at the "Darkling's virginity" question. I can't even... Did you see someone asked about Sturmhond too? It was just too funny.
Thank you so much for making this thread!! <33
Wasn't Zoya the Grisha that winked at Mal in the beginning of S&B, and the one he most likely was sneaking off that night to meet? I'm very curious if that's the case. (I also wouldn't be shocked if she was the Darkling's spy.)I agree with you Cari on the lacking chemistry thing. Their relationship felt more platonic to me. Everyone has different tastes where chemistry is concerned, which is why I think some people think Alina/Mal have none and others think they have it.
If you think you have crackpot theories you should hear mine, haha. I think Alina might just end up with Mal AND the Darkling, just at different times in her life.
Cari wrote:"Thank you so much for making this thread!! <33"I'm glad you enjoy taking part, when I first created this thread I had no idea if anyone was even interested in a Darkling/Alina relationship let alone discussing it.
Guys, I just noticed this The Grisha series:
8 works, 4 primary works
Does it mean that this is not a trilogy, after all? If there is going to be at least one more book, there will be more time for Alina to sort through her feelings, and a chance to learn more about the Darkling.
@ Summertime_bluesJust because we haven't learned about everything doesn't mean anyone can't judge with what's already been given, and as for right now there's no solid PROOF that the Darklimg loves Alina nor do we have any proof that Alina loves the Darkling.
All they have together is a power connection, and it's already been blatantly shown that the Darkling intends to use Alina to spread fear in order to rule a country. I'm not about that at all.
There's also the fact that Alina is very naive and feels lonely with this rare power only one person happens to understand, which again can just be some sort of attachment by default.
(My phone is unreliable most of the time so I try to post in parts) continued...Just because Alina is searching for solace doesn't mean she's clearly in love with the Darkling. Shes conflicted and confused with what to do, and I believe the Darkling takes advantage of that fact.
The Darkling always tries to show Alina that her and Mal are completely different, but since its the last book and Mal has some hidden connection when he touches Alina, that really might just change and fix everything. Even their differences.
Cari wrote: "Notice the lack of italics because she does not seem to feel anything. There is nothing but... a list!! And a very bare list at that. Thinking about her power makes her feel so many things and kissing Mal does not."So Alina feels great holding such power, but who wouldn't? Also what does that have to do with her feelings toward Mal?
Maybe that's because you chose a scene out of the million of Mal/Alina kiss scenes where Mal was expressing his mourning since he feels like he's losing Alina to her power.
I think you're just choosing to deny that Alina loves Mal more than a friend or a brother, because there are actually tons of quotes with Alina's narration that show she's madly in love with Mal and he has an affect on her that I'll post when I have the time to muster all the quotes. How people miss or forget them when Leigh constantly throws it in our faces is beyond me.
Cari wrote: "Alina is very much used to the idea of Mal being her platonic love, because that is what he was for many years. However, now that they could really be a couple something is not clicking. It's definitely not going the way you'd think it would. There could be many possible explanations for this, but unfortunately, there is not much textual evidence that helps support a good explanation."Because they're in a war and are constantly chased by the Darkling who wants to enslave her. Plus Alina has a country to save and a military coup to lead. Don't you think it would be inappropriate if all Mal and Alina did was have sex when all this war and politics is going on?
Even Mal states in Siege and Storm that him and Alina haven't spent time alone in a while because of everything, and that they miss each other. It's really just the situation conflicting with their relationship. Not their relationship itself.
Vindictev wrote: "they're in a war and are constantly chased by the Darkling who wants to enslave her. Plus Alina has a country to save and a military coup to lead."The Darkling was chasing only because she was running. Did you wonder what would have happened if she hadn't run away that one time in S&B, but rather talked to him about everything. I'm not saying his methods are good, but was the King exactly any better?
Cari wrote: "First, I'll try to answer the easy question within this one, which is simply does she love him. Yes, we know she does, fiercely. She wouldn't have left those people to die in the fold otherwise. And from there, it just gets so confusing, I'm not sure what to think anymore.It is undeniable that there is a serious problem with the lack of chemistry between Mal and Alina. The sparks do not fly. That is the main reason why most of the fandom prefers the Darkling. Leaving moral judgments aside, I do believe that Alina deserves to be with someone who makes her feel everything that you should feel when you are in love. I mean, aren't we all about the feels anyways!? :)"
Again, the entire chemistry thing is subjective. Everyone interprets everything differently. You and some people think Mal and Alina lack chemistry? Cool story bro, but there are other people like myself that think they have passion and chemistry. So saying that it's "undeniable" that they don't have chemistry is a fallacy in itself. That's your opinion.
Unless you have evidence provided in quotes that Alina clearly is starting to believe that Mal is just a friend or brother to her, you can't say it's undeniable that she thinks platonically of him.
All of this "Mal has no chemistry with Alina!" is really just whining. If that's really all that anyone can grasp to downgrade their relationship, then please stop and actually provide evidence to support your statement because that's all just white noise in a discussion/debate thread.
@Cari, Alina doesn't feel like she's in love with Mal? WAIT WHAT?
I fail to see how Alina isn't in love and affected by Mal. Since I'm all about evidence and canon, I'll even provide textual support so it isn't just my opinion.
It's a fact that Alina loves Mal more than a friend, because she even states that their love is just as undeniable as her power in her own words.
"I thought that I’d given up on Mal. I thought the love I’d had for him belonged to the past, to the foolish, lonely girl I never wanted to be again. I’d tried to bury that girl and the love she’d felt, just as I’d tried to bury my power. But I wouldn’t make that mistake again. Whatever burned between us was just as bright, just as undeniable. The moment our lips met, I knew with pure and piercing certainty that I would have waited for him forever."
Why would Alina say this if she only loved Mal as a friend and after she just kissed him? Mal isn't a friend or a brother to her, period. He's more to her than that,and romantically because who the hell says stuff like this after they kiss someone they have platonic feelings towards?
There are even these quotes from Siege and Storm that show she's still madly in love with Mal and that he has an affect on her heart:
He yanked me beneath a shadowed awning. I had a moment’s panic when I thought he’d spotted trouble, but then his arms were around me and his lips were pressed to mine.
When he finally drew back, my cheeks were warm and my legs had gone wobbly. “Just to be clear,” he said, “I’m not really interested in defending your honor.”
“Understood,” I managed, hoping I didn’t sound too ridiculously breathless.
Despite my exhaustion, my steps felt decidedly lighter. I still wasn’t used to the idea of us together. Another flutter passed through me. On the frontier there would be no curious boarders or unwanted interruptions. My pulse gave a little jump— whether from nerves or excitement, I wasn’t sure."
Alina is clearly in love with Mal and is happy to be with him.
"As we walked up the aisle, Mal took my hand, and my heart gave a funny little leap."
It's obvious that Leigh put meaning behind this quote. Mal and Alina have held hands many times, but this time it's different because they're walking up the aisle.
Meaning Alina has had thoughts of marrying Mal and is actually excited with the idea. This reinforces that Alina loves Mal romantically and not platonically.
Vindictev wrote more or less, paraphrasing: "Cari stop with this nonsense!!!"I see your frustration and I understand your points. Let me remind you that I'm team Mal too. I just see that's something is not right, in my opinion, and I'm trying to understand it.
I'll try to address your points before I have to leave for work.
I chose the two parts I quoted because I was just reading them yesterday and well, I was disappointed, for Mal, by the things I pointed out already.
You could interpret Alina's lack of enthusiasm (for want of a better word) in a couple of ways:
1. He just kissed her at a moment in which she was obviously drunk with power (almost daydreaming about it, ect).
2. She is not really paying attention to the actual kiss but to the way Mal feels about the whole situation.
It is a scene in which she's withholding information from him. She's realized wants it all, all the power. (Completely independent of the war, etc.) This is a recurrent theme in S&S. She's being "bitten" by the same bug that bit the Darkling all of those hundreds of years ago. She doesn't tell Mal, but she also knows she can't fool him because she knows her all too well. That's why she notices he's sad when he kisses her more than the kiss.
That is an interpretation. And I believe that's the reason why she's so detached during that kiss.
However, that doesn't change the fact that in that moment, and let's be honest, in most of S&S, she's taking him for granted.
I will not say she loves him as a brother, because somehow that disturbs me. But I just don't see that she's very much in tune with him, which is what causes their drift in S&S.
It could be that he was her only dream for a long time and now she's discovered she also has other dreams, namely to be the most powerful grisha who ever lived. And that distracts her too much when they are together. She doesn't seem to be in the moment. Perhaps she needs to reconcile the two things: her love for power and her love for Mal... especially because she knows he doesn't agree with the powerlust she's going through.
I'm not saying they need to have sex. (This is YA, it's unlikely there will be any sex at all. And that is completely fine by me.)
I'm just saying there has to be a time when she realizes (whether) he still makes her weak at the knees and that's a feeling worth having. Not only she needs to know but also Mal is a great guy, he deserves to know that much.
That being said, I don't believe the Darkling and Alina will be endgame because Alina has loved Mal all her life and always will.“I have loved you all my life, Mal,” I whispered through my tears. “There is no end to our story.”
She never wants them to be apart either.
In an interview, Leigh Bardugo talked about her S&B playlist and gave most the characters their own song. She then went on to say that the song "Cosmic Love" by Florence + the Machine best described the relationships between Alina/Darkling/Mal.Some of the lyrics are:
"You left me in the darkness, so darkness I became."
To me, this lyric sounds like it belongs to the Darkling.
Another lyric I'm fascinated by is:
"I took the stars from my eyes and then I made a map and knew that somehow, I could find my way back. Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too. So I stayed in the darkness with you."
To me this sounds like a Darkling/Alina thing. In S&S, Alina makes a reference to the stars and how she wants to engulf their power which relates to the lyric: I took the stars from my eyes meaning that the stars if we translate them to the story could represent Alina's power.
The next line is and then I made a map and knew that somehow, I could find my way back, this could imply that using the "stars" (which represent Alina's power) Alina could create a map (metaphorically) to find her way back. Meaning, that she could use her newly discovered powers to create her own path in life.
Then we have the line then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too. So I stayed in the darkness with you
Lets break this one down.
The first part: I heard your heart beating, that could reference to S&B when Alina discovers her powers at the Little Palace and falls in love [to some extent] with the Darkling.
Then we have the: you were in the darkness too, that would indicate that Alina feels isolated (like in S&S) but discovers there's someone out there like her - the Darkling.
And then my fav part: so I stayed in the darkness with you meaning she stayed in the darkness with the Darkling.
See what I'm getting at, or am I just crazy?
Natalia wrote: "Guys, I just noticed this The Grisha series:
8 works, 4 primary works
Does it mean that this is not a trilogy, after all? If there is going to be at least one more book, there will be more time ..."
Well, the 4th book may be the much awaited Darkling POV that Bardugo sort of hinted at... Are those numbers "official" because that would be great?
I think Bardugo released yesterday the picture of a title that may be the title of the companion story for R$R, it's called "The Demon in the woods."
I hope there are more books. :)
WinterRose wrote: "Wasn't Zoya the Grisha that winked at Mal in the beginning of S&B, and the one he most likely was sneaking off that night to meet? I'm very curious if that's the case. (I also wouldn't be shocked i..."Yes. Zoya is the Grisha that caught Mal's eye at the beginning of S&B. It does seem like Zoya and Mal did get to meet that night, although we don't know the details. If memory serves right, in S&S, he's going to explain to Alina something about that night and Alina doesn't even want to know. (I wouldn't want to know either.)
So Zoya and Mal meet again at the Little Palace. While Zoya says she wants to help Alina's cause, she's clearly disrespectful when it comes to Alina and Mal.
She goes as far as asking Alina if she can have Mal when Alina is done with him, and then during the scene in which Mal is doing "fight club", she just goes and kisses him squarely in the mouth.
Now you tell me. If you had a boss who disliked you and was able to do the Cut, would you go around trying to infuriate her by kissing her guy?
Zoya has no respect for Alina, at all.
Alina and both the Darkling and Mal... hmmmm... how powerful are those amplifiers again? LOL
You know, having it all is the dream, right?
(Mal would not agree to this at all though. There would be blood.)
Cari wrote: "Well, the 4th book may be the much awaited Darkling POV that Bardugo sort of hinted at... Are those numbers "official" because that would be great?"I saw on this page https://www.goodreads.com/series/6971... at the very top. I don't know how official this information is. I understand that only novels and not short stories count as primary works. So far we have 3 primary works, unless you count the edition where S&B and S&S are in one book. But why should it count, if it is just another edition of the same story. So I assumed we are in for at least one more book.
Summertime_Blues wrote: "In an interview, Leigh Bardugo talked about her S&B playlist and gave most the characters their own song. She then went on to say that the song "Cosmic Love" by Florence + the Machine best describe..."Just like you are fascinated with the playlist, I'm obsessing over the inscription on UK S&B edition: "A dark heart. A pure soul. A love that will last forever."
I mean, the dark heart and the pure soul parts are clear, but what love is meant here. Darkling&Alina or Mal&Alina? And was it even intentional, or just some random stuff the publisher wrote to make the book look intriguing?
@NataliaMost likely some random stuff the UK publisher wrote however, it could be legit. There's no way of knowing.
The UK edition must be missing half the story! According to Amazon, it's only 200+ pages vs. the 400+ page US edition. :))
Vindictev wrote: "@Cari, Alina doesn't feel like she's in love with Mal? WAIT WHAT?I fail to see how Alina isn't in love and affected by Mal. Since I'm all about evidence and canon, I'll even provide textual sup..."
I love all of those quotes and the (Z. Ephron?) meme too xD
I haven't gotten to that part yet, but I really like your catching of the "aisle" reference. When Alina's passed out on the whaler, she dreams of being a wife and it seems like something she fears (the woman carrying a heavy load, etc). Perhaps at that point in the story she's changed her mind? I' m looking forward to reading that.
I'm not saying she's not in love with him either. I'm just saying that at times she seems confused and conflicted about her feelings, because let's face it: there is a lot to take in. She's going through some major changes.
I'm also saying that, to me, many times in S&S she takes Mal for granted. And I mean, precisely because they're at war, every minute should be precious.
Natalia wrote: "The Darkling was chasing only because she was running. Did you wonder what would have happened if she hadn't run away that one time in S&B, but rather talked to him about everything. I'm not saying his methods are good, but was the King exactly any better? "I doubt anything would have changed. The Darkling wants to use Alina as a way to control the fold and showcase it to spead fear to others like at the end of S&B. Alina wouldn't stand back while an entire city got devoured by Volcra. She especially wouldn't help him to do it.
Sure Alina left the others on the ship so she can save herself and Mal, but what was she supposed to do? Stay enslaved to the Darkling and let them have Mal fed to the volcra while she watches or have them shoot at her and Mal? She really didn't have a choice.
Summertime_Blues wrote: "As you can see, though she thought it was Mal, there was still passion between her and the Darkling. "
Your post doesn't make any sense. It's technically not a moment shared between the Darkling and Alina when Alina thought it was MAL feeling up on her. I could understand if she gave her consent and knew it was the Darkling doing that to her, but that wasn't the case.
We haven't even seen Mal do any type of sexual advances on Alina, because fortunately, he doesn't prioritize the benefits Alina can give him with her body over Alina's safety. Which I love him for.
Maybe we should wait until Mal and Alina actually have a chance to be sexually active first?
You're basically just reinforcing the statement that Alina really does in fact want to have sex with Mal since that's what she desired and responded to, and when she found out it was the Darkling, rejected with terror. LOL.
Vindictev wrote: "what was she supposed to do? Let them have Mal fed to the volcra while she watches or have them shoot at her and Mal? She really didn't have a choice. "I'm not going to argue about that. I would have done the same in her place.
However I had a problem with her leading the Grisha army in S&S. Was it really necessary to put so many people at risk and eventually get them killed so the Darkling wouldn't get to her? She knew perfectly well he didn't want all those Grisha, just her alone. And how could he ever turn her into a slave and control her power, when she was able to do just the same, as was shown at the end or S&S?
I'm really curious to see what kind of rule the Darkling established over Ravka in R&R.
Natalia wrote: "However I had a problem with her leading the Grisha army in S&S. Was it really necessary to put so many people at risk and eventually get them killed so the Darkling wouldn't get to her? She knew perfectly well he didn't want all those Grisha, just her alone. And how could he ever turn her into a slave and control her power, when she was able to do just the same, as was shown at the end or S&S?I'm really curious to see what kind of rule the Darkling established over Ravka in R&R.
"
Alina is the only one capable of defeating the Darkling and destroying the fold. Who else would lead the Grisha army?
She was able to take control back of her power that ONE time when Mal's life was in danger. She had lots of trouble controlling it for herself until she lost it when Mal was about to die.
Notice how Alina's power manifested itself and is the strongest when Mal's life is on the line.
Also, I'm not sure if that's a typo you did, but why would Alina want control over the Darkling's powers? He's completely useless against destroying the fold and his powers actually make everything worse.
She's saying that Alina can tap into Darkling's powers (as shown in S&S,) and she might want his powers cause he has the ability to create a shadow army - she might want this in R&R.The point @Natalia was trying to make is that it would be hard for the Darkling to make Alina a slave since she could do the same to him - its a two-way bond.
Summertime_Blues wrote: "She's saying that Alina can tap into Darkling's powers ... its a two-way bond. "Yeah, that's what I meant :) She might not have had that ability in the very beginning of the story, for lack of practice or something else, but she has it now. The Darkling can't physically make her do anything she doesn't want too. So why couldn't she hear him out, on the condition that he wouldn't harm Mal.
And no one really knows if the Shadow Fold can be destroyed once the Darkling is destroyed.
WinterRose wrote: "He actually reminds me a little of Koschei from Deathless. (And Alina as Marya, Mal as Ivan) "Oh, I will be cruel to you, Marya Morevna. It will stop your breath, how cruel I can be. But you understand, don’t you? You are clever enough. I am a demanding creature. I am selfish and cruel and extremely unreasonable. But I am your servant. When you starve I will feed you; when you are sick I will tend you. I crawl at your feet; for before your love, your kisses, I am debased. For you alone I will be weak.” "
The more I think of it, the more I agree. Probably the Darkling's character was really inspired by this ultimate villain from Russian folklore, because the whole setting was Russia-inspired too.
But if L. Bardugo will not deviate from the fairy tale, we who are rooting for the Darkling are all screwed. I don't know a single variant of the story where Koschei wasn't defeated by Ivan.
As much as I want Alina and the Darkling be together by the end of R&R, I'm also trying to be realistic. At the very least I don't want the Darkling to be killed.
I think at the end of R&R he'll either be redeemed but die, therefore dying with the readers respect, or he'll just die without redemption, or he'll be redeemed and live.
@Natalia- I am also curious as to why Alina decided to try to reassemble the Second Army, especially because from the beginning it seemed like a failed enterprise... mainly because of lack of resources (grisha and otherwise).Alina's motivations are perhaps complex but I think that mainly she was trying to have some agency over her own life. By that I mean that as soon as Nikolai proposed it became clear to her that if she didn't act and did something for herself, male figures around her would keep seeing her as a damsel in distress and someone who could be easily used to advance their personal causes. By saying she wanted to lead the Second Army, she was trying to position herself as an authority figure, a force to be reckoned with. Also, she would be able to have (somewhat) more independence and autonomy. In that regard, she did the right thing because almost immediately after Nikolai the other idiot prince proposed as well. She's in a very patriarchal society, if she doesn't start taking control, all the men around her will continue to think they're calling all the shots and she's just a weapon at their disposal.
Is she competent for that position? Not really but she accomplishes plenty, imho. Perhaps, it was a suicide mission from the start, but everyone on board knew that and they were fine with it.
She was very inexperienced and navigating the court on top of her own responsibilities proved to be a daunting task. Also, imho, Nikolai was doing all he could to keep her away from Mal, which was a complete disservice to Alina. Mal is her love interest, yes, but he's also someone she can fully trust who could've been a more valuable asset closer to her as an advisor regarding the military and well.. people in general (cause we all know she feels she's not very good at people.)
However, despite all this I think Alina made the right decision. With her being in command of the Second Army for a brief period of time she sent a clear message to all undecided Grisha out there (and to everyone really) that she was not a timid little girl, but someone who was ready to lead and fight. I think her time enduring boring and pointless meetings at the Big Palace were also (hopefully) a good lesson in politics. After all, it was a political weakness (the idiot prince and his idiotic incompetence) which gave the Darkling an advantage.
Ravkan politics are complicated. It's not entirely clear to me why they've been at war with.... everyone? for so long. The fact that the king is a complete moron and the court a bunch of leeches doesn't really help. They're completely disconnected from the people. Since the court doesn't seem to suffer at all because of the war, no one is really interested in putting an end to it. It's important for Alina to try to get a grasp of these things because she might be in a position, soon enough, where the other kingdoms might reach out to her (when they see she's become a worthy opponent, they'll try to make their case and win her over, I suppose).
Last but not least, in S&S, Alina starts being honest with herself that she really wants power. She wants it all, and perhaps along with her newfound powerlust and ambition, she may be envisioning herself as the person who will actually occupy the Darkling position. And this was just the dress rehearsal.
Summertime_Blues wrote: "She's saying that Alina can tap into Darkling's powers (as shown in S&S,) and she might want his powers cause he has the ability to create a shadow army - she might want this in R&R.The point @Nat..."
The fact that she now knows she can control the Darkling's power is a complete game-changer. I wonder if she has to be physically close to him or if it's something she could do from a distance too.
Hopefully by R&R she'll be completely over fearing him... which lead to many mistakes in S&S, but how could she have known she could control his power? She's been so used to being afraid and running from him. Now they're starting to be more like equals and this is important, because to end the Ravkan war they might have to work together as a team... which will be interesting because the Darkling has never had to be in a position in which he's had an equal. He operates by fear and if she stops fearing him altogether, it will be like a whole new world. (I mean, I think even Bahgra feared him a little, and Bahgra is badass. *looooooooooove Bahgra*).
It would be so good if Alina had a teacher. Who knows how many things she's actually able to do? She's learning as fast as she can, but it takes so much time. She knows very little about this path she's on and with no one to guide her, she's done remarkably well. I wish she and Bahgra would be friends again. Sometimes I wish the Darkling got over himself and helped her cope and explore her newfound abilities.
(Her power will only increase when she finds the last amplifier, but without direction... I dunno. Sounds like things could go awry.)
As I see it, it becomes clearer and clearer the Darkling and Alina are a sort of a "ying-yang" force.. well quite literally because doesn't that symbol represents light and shadow?
They're two faces of the same coin and for that reason I don't think Alina wants him to die (while she goes on living), because they're meant to keep each other's powers in check. If the Darkling dies in the end, and Alina is left will all 3 amplifiers she will become the beautiful and terrible force that Mal foresaw and no one will be able to stop her, if she looses her mind for a century or two. I think for her own sanity, the Darkling needs to be around.
I'm going to look more into this, but I've noticed that there are times in the book in which she references the Darkling's death and sort of includes herself in it. Once was on board the whaler and the other, of course, at the very end, but I think there is a 3rd one that escapes me. It's quite possible they need to both live or both die. And because Alina is awesome and a tame Darkling should be a sight to behold, let them both live.
There is so much going on. The enemies of Ravka are too many and I don't think focusing on "The Fold" is the end-all of the situation. New technologies are coming and it could mean the end of the Grisha... Or, it could mean a new beginning, new ways of doing things (like Alina sees aboard Nikolai's ships). The Darkling, let's face it, is too old and clings to the old ways. If Alina and the Darkling stop fighting each other and try to work for Ravka, it could be a whole new series of books too :)
Cari wrote: "If Alina and the Darkling stop fighting each other and try to work for Ravka, it could be a whole new series of books too :) "Which is my point exactly! Instead of running and fighting, they should cooperate. Let them both live!
Guys, this discussion thread and all your insightful comments make me want to reread the series. But I'm afraid too. What if I get super hyped before R&R is released and end up hating it?
Natalia wrote: "Cari wrote: "If Alina and the Darkling stop fighting each other and try to work for Ravka, it could be a whole new series of books too :) "Which is my point exactly! Instead of running and fighti..."
I'm having a lot of fun with my re-read, so I strongly encourage it.
I started it because, as you know I'm super obsessed, but also because I don't want to be surprised by R&R.
I was reading a George RR Martin interview and he said something that rings true for me: he said that in good fiction there are always big plot twists, but they've always been foreshadowed. If you're a careful reader, in the back of your mind you should be able to see it coming (or you should be able to kick yourself for not seeing it coming).
So it's my way of coping with the insanity of not knowing what's going to happen, if that makes any sense. Deep down inside I'm afraid Bardugo is going to break my heart, so that's my worst-case scenario.
However, in her tumblr she did say this is not the end of the Grisha world because there are still other parts of the map to explore. I'm not sure what she meant by that but it sort of gives me hope.
I completely get you though.
I heard somewhere that there's been talk of Leigh Bardugo writing a novel (or novella) told from the Darkling's PoV. I have no idea how official this information is, it's just what I've heard. Also the other day on Twitter Bardugo released a tweet that said: "Something special coming your way. #ruinandrising" Then showed the image of a manuscript titled "The Demon In The Wood."A fan then asked:
"is this the secret project/surprise you were teasing me with weeks ago?!"
And Bardugo replied with: "yes :)"
Maybe this is to do with another series set in the Grisha wordl?!
The Darkling surviving in the end is too far fetched. He's the main villain, the conflict, the reason the Shadow Fold even exists which is what Alina is trying to destroy. How the hell would the Darkling help in anyway? His powers are shadow. He can't work with Alina as a team when theres nothing she can gain from it. If you're gonna make theories, then at least be sensible about them.
Mal has already been suggested to be a "weapon" Alina can use with his secret power and connection with her coming into the spotlight. There are higher chances of Alina and Mal working together than Alina and the Darkling not only because Alina and Mal are the Good Guys, but it also makes sense for the two main protagonists to defeat the antagonist, aka the Darkling, in the end.
Two of the main protagonists thinking they're extremely different in the begginning only to find out they share a connection deeper than they understood and working together to defeat the conflict in the end. I can really see Leigh tying the story up perfectly with a resolution like that.
I can't imagine a good ending with the Darkling at all. Unless Alina decides to throw everything, her love, her country away to be the evil queen which is pretty contradictory considering her powers and highly improbable considering her feelings.
Vindictev wrote: "The Darkling surviving in the end is too far fetched. He's the main villain, the conflict, the reason the Shadow Fold even exists. How the hell would the Darkling help in anyway? His powers are s..."
I'll try to think of some theories.
As for the Good vs. Evil thing, honestly, I'm a bit tired of it. I like my characters more ambiguous, where no one is really good or bad, but a combination of both.
So far one of the ways the Darkling can help (that I see) is to keep all the aggression of neighboring countries at bay. They fear his power so they wouldn't invade. But at the same time I understand that this my theory is not fool-proof, as I don't see why he couldn't have done the same when he was the second powerful man in Ravka after the King. Or did the King enjoy sending his armies to battles?
Summertime_Blues wrote: "I heard somewhere that there's been talk of Leigh Bardugo writing a novel (or novella) told from the Darkling's PoV. I have no idea how official this information is, it's just what I've heard. Also..."When I first saw that title I thought it was perhaps another novella like "The Tailor" and the other 2, but those are not in print, right? They're only e-books and "The Demon in the woods" looks like something in print. I didn't realize until now that you pointed it out. I wonder what it can be! #omgsooexcited
Vindictev wrote: "The Darkling surviving in the end is too far fetched. He's the main villain, the conflict, the reason the Shadow Fold even exists which is what Alina is trying to destroy. How the hell would the ..."
V, you're considering only what is a very limited and predictable scenario: good guys win and bad guys loose.
There are a couple of things you may need to consider:
1. If you check Bardugo's ideas (via tumblr/twitter for instance), you'll see she has an absolute soft spot for the "bad guys". I think you'll even find some reflections on why she really dislikes the villain cliché and prefers her antagonists to be more nuanced, with more depth and complexity. Repeatedly she's said that we do not know all about the Darkling and his motivations.
2. We might not like him, but chances are he's not all good or all bad. In fact, this can be said of everyone in the book. You are choosing to see this story as a very "black and white" kind of deal: good guys win and bad guys die. I don't think Bardugo is that traditional.
3. There is no reason why the Darkling has to die. He could die. In fact, there's a very real possibility of that, but if he does I am sure it will not be in a predictable way, in which he's an awful villain and the good guys kill him. In fact, it is more likely Bardugo will kill him in the end as a hero instead of a villain.
4. We know very little about the fold, Alina's powers and what needs to be done to end the war and help Ravka. There's ample room for collaboration. Darkling understands everything that's going on much better than Alina does. She doesn't have to be his evil queen or anyone's queen. Alina's been running because she was afraid and didn't know much about her own powers. Once she stops being afraid and becomes a force in her own right, there's nothing the Darkling can do to her or the people she loves.
5. I know there's much more to Mal. Still I don't see why everything would have to be in terms of "this OR that." I hope he comes to his own as well and stays with Alina. And I hope the Darkling stays around to sulk about it. :)
The "bad guy" dying is not by any means the only possible ending. It could be an end in which they all find a way to start a new chapter of Ravka working together.
PS
Also, for all we know the real bad guy here could end up being the Apparat. He's by far the worse lunatic out there and we don't even know for sure what he wants, but he could end up being more menacing than the Darkling. After all, he completely had the Darkling fooled into thinking he was absolutely harmless. And take into account the Darkling is quite cunning and hundreds of years old. This guy went completely under the radar while planning his own coup against both the king and the Darkling. The true mark of a villain, if you ask me ;)
Cari wrote: "Also, for all we know the real bad guy here could end up being the Apparat. He's by war the worse lunatic out there and we don't even know for sure what he wants, but he could end up being more menacing than the Darkling. After all, he did completely had the Darkling fooled into thinking he was completely harmless. The true mark of a villain, if you ask me ;) "Oh, Cari, I'm so glad you mentioned Apparat, because I've been thinking about him too while reading the series. He appeared to be such a creepy weirdo in S&B and I was really disappointed with what the author made of him in S&S. IDK, I expected something more freaky from him than just organizing a cult. But then, few things are worse than pure fanaticism, so maybe there is something to your theory as well.
Natalia wrote: "Cari wrote: "Also, for all we know the real bad guy here could end up being the Apparat. He's by war the worse lunatic out there and we don't even know for sure what he wants, but he could end up b..."It's not just a cult. At the end of S&S, he has convinced regular citizens, members of the First and Second Army and even rogue Grisha to join him. He's got huge numbers, and he's the only one that has brought everyone together.
It does seem, to me, that Alina is his prisoner. And I'm not sure that my beloved Tamar and Tolya will help her at all because they're working for the Apparat. They have been working for him all along... which means the Apparat also fooled Nikolai (by infiltrating his people among Sturmhond's crew), and prince Nik is not a dumb guy either. So the Apparat wins in cunning and political maneuvering.
Cari, you said everything I was thinking, so kudos! lol I think it's very obvious at this point that the Darkling isn't this evil cliché villain. I mean it's in the books, but she's flat out said so herself. So I'm eager to see what R&R has in store."As for the Good vs. Evil thing, honestly, I'm a bit tired of it. I like my characters more ambiguous, where no one is really good or bad, but a combination of both."
YES. All the characters really have shades of gray, even the "good guys." Leigh is a big fan of Martin, who is known for his gray characters. I mean I hated Jaime Lannister at first, who was an antagonist, and grew to love him. It's all about perspective. Leigh even said if the books were told in Darkling's POV, he wouldn't be considered a villain. I don't really consider him one now to be honest. An extremist and antagonist to Alina, sure. But he aint no Voldemort. :P
The Apparat..he's totally creepy. He's very Game of Thrones-y so I don't trust him at all, haha.
Here's some food for thought. What if Alina is a reincarnation? What if the original amplifiers were made for her, just as the Darkling suggests? He's really set that she has them, as if they belong to her. Based on the blurb for R&R, I have a feeling her past is tied with his. I considered the Darkling was Morozova, but maybe that was his father.
One more thing. As you mentioned Cari about the yin and yang thing (I'm still waiting to hear something about how the sun can't exist without the moon, or the light without the dark or some parallel like that lol) I wonder if the Darkling became so dark because his equal hasn't been around? If the Darkling can give darkness to Alina, why couldn't she give light to him? It just makes you wonder how the Darkling would have turned out if all this time, a sun summoner was there too to balance him out.
With regards to Leigh having a love for villains, I think this quote is very interesting that she said:
"Being ruthless isn't enough. My preferred badboy has a code, even a perverse kind of honor. He isn't a bully. Being dangerous isn't enough. Angry bears and box jellyfish are dangerous but I don't want to get close to them. The platinum badboy has dignity, control, restraint.
That brings me to the allure of this particular kind of badboy or what I like to call, Flapping the Unflappable.
What does it mean when a boy who trusts no one chooses to trust you? Or when someone single-minded in his mission (whatever that may be), let's you distract him from that all-important goal (vengeance against his enemies, world domination, acquiring the Sword of Florgenflerg at any cost, etc.)? Frankly, it means you're awesome. It means there's something compelling enough about you to pull him off course, to drag him from his self-imposed exile from humanity, to disturb his well-ordered universe, and make him long for something more. You alone have been chosen to see behind the badboy's icy exterior to the human heart beneath, and that's a heady thing."
WinterRose wrote: "YES. All the characters really have shades of gray, even the "good guys." Leigh is a big fan of Martin, who is known for his gray characters. I mean I hated Jaime Lannister at first, who was an antagonist, and grew to love him. It's all about perspective. Leigh even said if the books were told in Darkling's POV, he wouldn't be considered a villain. I don't really consider him one now to be honest. An extremist and antagonist to Alina, sure. But he aint no Voldemort. :P"WinterRose... ILU!!! XD All of my fandoms in one paragraph... I felt the same way about Jamie. I would have bet real money that nothing would ever make me like him, and then... GRRM hits me over the head and I completely changed my mind.
"Gray characters" are what make stories worth reading. If everyone is predictable and cookie-cut, you don't even have to read the whole thing. I think Bardugo understands that really well.
In my opinion, there are only two characters that I loathe and are beyond redemption in this series: the King and the Apparat. I hate them with a passion (ie. I'd cut both their heads and use them as fertilizer ingredients). The King for being an incompetent idiot, who spent his life hidden in his stupid palace,having his way with women who weren't in a position to refuse him, surrounded by unfathomable wealth while his people died like flies, in abject misery. The Apparat, for taking advantage of people's suffering and beliefs, spreading lies and false hopes to advance his own cause. (I'm pretty sure there'll be more things to add to My "Apparat list of hate" after R&R.)
The Darkling is interesting. He's hardened himself, as you would if you lived hundreds of years. He's done awful things and sometimes it's kinda hard to like him. But I do believe he has a plan for Ravka and he is a patriot. He's spent hundreds of years there for a reason. He believes there is a problem and he wants to fix it. Do we know exactly what this problem is and whether his solution is a good one? Not really. The whole "fold" thing is murky. That might be the whole problem, or only part of it. But I want to hear whatever he wants to say and then make up my mind. I think Alina will too. (In fact, I think the teaser in which she goes to him may be about her going to see him to ask for his help.)
You know how Alina left the people at the kiff to die when the Darkling threatened to feed Mal to the volchra? It was an awful thing to do. We know it and Alina knows it. However, we agree with Alina's choice because we understand her reasons. What Darkling did to the people in that village was awful as well. We know it and he knows it. The only difference in our perception is that we sympathize with Alina because we know her POV. I'm sure that if we knew the Darkling did that because he absolutely believed it was the one act that would end the war, the whole event would look different. POV is everything.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
War and Peace (other topics)
Deathless (other topics)
Deathless (other topics)
Deathless (other topics)
More...
Books mentioned in this topic
War and Peace (other topics)War and Peace (other topics)
Deathless (other topics)
Deathless (other topics)
Deathless (other topics)
More...
When people say Mal might end up with Zoya, I laugh so hard because wow. I mean wow.
How downgrading it would be for Mal to leave Alina, his best friend, the love of his life, and the girl he sacrificed everything for; for Zoya. Zoya of all people. She might have been the only person who gave Mal attention when he was a drunk and thought he was useless, but there is no way Mal would give up Alina for Zoya. Ahahaha.
Like think of all the times Leigh threw a brick in our face with Mal and Alina's relationship. Put that on a scale with the scarce moments Mal is on a page with Zoya. It would be really cheap and highly unlikely that Mal chooses Zoya over Alina.