October Group Read #2: The First Days

[Tammy K.]

Lana wrote: "When I read the part about Katie going with Travis to Ralph and Nerit's to retrieve the guns, leaving Jenni behind which led to Jenni's freak out, it occurred to me that Jenni sees Katie, Jason and..."

Hi Lana,
You do not have to answer this if you're not up to it but
What elements do you look for in your zombie reads?
Examples might be
A large amount of combat scenes
Suspenseful chases scenes
Blood and Gore
Little blood and Gore
Zombies that have no cure , just kill them
Zombies with some sort of cure possible.
Cognitive zombies
Zombie romances
Female main characters
Group of survivors
Single point of view
Multiple points of view
Explorations of mortality (characters and or society)
Zero mortality just kill them dead let the wicked and or morally absence rule... Go caveman thinking!

[Teresa]

So sorry, guys! I've been laying in bed for 2 days now. I think I'm coming down with a wicked nasty chest cold :-( Anyway, I'm trying to just answer these questions and put this book behind me. I'm ready for Desolation!!! So, after I answer these questions, you probably won't see me on this thread anymore. I just do not have the time to devote loads of energy, thought, and interpretation into a book I only thought was 'so-so,' but because I'm mod, I HAVE to *grumble grumble*. I rated the book 3 stars for almost the EXACT same reasons Tammy did (see her post with the spoiler). The writing had REAL potential, but the book just kind of petered out. The strong descriptions and good potential is the only thing that saved this book from a 1 or 2 star rating. Anyway, thanks sooooo much, Elizabeth, Tammy, & Thia for hanging in there and participating! Thia, I REALLY look forward to your input in other BOTM threads!!!

QUESTION TIME!!!

#1. Okay, I seemed to notice that this last section was even MORE about sex and relationships than the last section. Do you have any ideas as to why the author seems to have completely stopped the story to focus on the 'sex stuff?' Do you think it is because she knew there would be a sequel to save more zombie fighting action for? Or do you expect more of the same from the sequels? Will you be reading the sequels?
I am gonna answer this one here there and everywhere. NO...I will NOT be reading the sequels...I have WAY too many books on my TBR list that I WANT to read than waste time on garbage. Although I DO want to know who killed Ritchie. Okay...MAYBE I'll read one if it goes on sale or the library has it. And I DO think I will follow Thia's advice and check out the 'Untold Tales' series. I may be alone in this, but I DO kind of feel as though the author thought it might be a sneaky way to pull the reader into reading the sequels by getting us 'hooked' on the sex stuff and then yearning for more at the end. Only problem was, this book is EXACTLY like bad sex...okay, you did it, its over, you can't UN-do it, but you certainly don't wanna do it again, especially right after the first go 'round. MAYBE this woulda worked if I was a romance reader, I dunno. I know that A LOT of women LOVE romance schmooze, and maybe this is Frater's way of getting that demographic to give zoms a chance. No idea. WHATEVER she was trying here DID NOT work on me! Unless she was trying to leave a bad taste in my mouth, that is! I have NO CLUE why she seemed to think it would be a good idea to just stall the 'story' to switch over to a romance book, and I honestly feel really cheated. This book had sooooo much potential!!! Frater IS genuinely talented. I could SEE the world she created, and to just cop-out on the zombie action just as they got to a great stronghold just really soured me on this book. I DID NOT like all the sex talk, the romance mumbo-jumbo, and everything that went with it. This one REALLY missed the mark, IMO.

#2. I've noticed a lot of commentary about characters 'devolving.' Do you find this to be true? How so?
I guess that in order for a character to 'devolve,' they would have had to have reached a certain amount of 'evolving,' which I DO NOT think Jenni nor Katie really were. I think we were tricked into falling so hard for Jenni & Katie in the very beginning, and then the character development just squealed to a stop when Frater decided to write a story. In the 1st section, it WAS just Jenni & Katie running, which gave us time to learn to love them. The second section was kind of action-y, and by the 3rd and last part, Frater switched the Katie and Jenni we knew and loved for a couple of crappy doppelgänger versions of them. I was not happy with this! I think if Frater would have stuck to the pacing and development present in the first section, I would have liked this a lot more.

#3. How do you feel about Jenni's decision to be with Juan? Do you think she 'settled' for him after finding out how enamored Travis was by Katie, or did you think Jenni and Juan were a better match from the get-go? Do you even believe for a second that Juan is only the second man she's ever been with? (pg. 308)
I think that Jenni and Juan were a better match from the very beginning. I think that is the one thing that Frater fore-shadowed about. I loved their playful banter, and I must say Juan was one of my favorite characters. I think Jenni only seemed to want Travis (and maybe even actually believed it herself) because Travis was more of a 'man's man.' And Tammy, I gotta say, you REALLY hit the nail on the head by focusing on that word 'willingly.' Because I thought "Whoa!!! There is NO way that Juan could be only the second guy Jenni has ever been with; not with the way she has been acting the whole book!!!!" Then I noticed that word, and that opens up a whole realm of possibilities of rape guilt, and of possible rape victims flaunting everything and acting 'stupid,' 'ditzy,' 'weak,' and 'slutty' to play the role of victim. ***NOT TO SAY THAT RAPE ISN'T VERY, VERY SERIOUS!!! People deal with things in many different ways, including tragedy victims staying in their 'tragedy' roles as a sense of strange comfort. Just PLEASE don't mis-understand me as advocating rape IN ANY WAY!!!!!***** And of course, there are girls that seem to like to act slutty and dumb, thinking that is what men want, and they can be virgins for all anyone knows. Which is also fine. Different strokes and all. I just felt as though it was an insult in a way. Its like Frater made Jenni seem like a girl that had 'been around' all the way up to the point of sex with Juan. I don't think I would be ready for sex with the second partner of my life so soon after seeing my babies murdered and dead. I don't know...this whole sex stuff was just WAY heavy-handed, and it totally detracted from MY enjoyment of the book.

#4. If YOU had to make the executive decision, would you have thrown Ritchie (the meth dealer) to the zoms, or do you agree with Travis that everyone is entitled to life and a new beginning? Logistically, what role do you think a drug dealer could play in this new society?
I DEFINITELY would not have thrown Ritchie off the roof. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised so many of you would even banish him. Maybe my viewpoint is skewed by the fact that I, myself, am a former addict (addict in recovery, whatever you want to say). I COMPLETELY agree with Travis that "That's bullshit, Katie. I'm sorry. They were all strung out and not in their right minds. Now he has a chance to do better. To be better." I can speak from personal experience that I would do ANYTHING for the people in my life that cared enough to reach their hands down to me when I was at my deepest and darkest to give me a helping hand out of my self-imposed misery. I am a strong proponent of helping the sick, and, while I DO think that some addicts use the 'its an illness...I can't help it' thing as a cop-out, I DO believe that all people can redeem themselves and should have that chance. Who knows...Ritchie may have been great at, say, helping with inventory. When you deal drugs, you have to be able to ration out your 'product' and not run out. Perhaps he would have been good at finding ways into buildings that seemed invincible (this is assuming he was a thief as well, which is a HUGE assumption...I have NEVER stole to get my 'fix,' and I know a lot of other ex-users that never did, either.). But I AM sure he could have found his niche in the new society after he got his head cleared up. Yes, I WOULD vote for leaving a strung-out person behind only if you were actively running away from danger...they may slow you down, and honestly, if they weren't over their withdrawal, they won't be good for much- 'cept maybe zombie food. It pains me to say so, but it IS the truth. My vote would be to help Ritchie clear his head, then let him decide whether to stay or go. If he chose to stay, he would have to be on some sort of probationary period. I needed NOTHING, if not structure, after I got clean. Ritchie needs the same chance...

#5. On page 322, Juan says "Yeah, well, you try to be a Hispanic male in a white society and see if you feel comfortable with that answer." We hadn't heard ANYTHING about race relations; why the sudden mention? Do you see anything about Ashley Oaks (besides maybe Shane and Phil) that would make you think race relations would be a problem there?
This was another cop-out. Ashley Oaks was NOT a racist town; Juan was NOT the only non-white there. I think Frater threw this in as a failed way to build conflict. Stupid and unnecessary- that's the way I saw this red-herring of a plot-device. FAIL!!!

#6. I'm not sure if this is included in the hard copy, and I know it isn't included in the audio version, but in the Kindle book, there is an author blurb at the end in which Frater explains that "Writers are often advised to write what they know and love. Well, I know Texans and I love the zombie genre." (pg. 333) As Thia's comment suggests, Frater may not know Texas as well as she claims, and she doesn't seem to know jack s&*t about the LGBT community. Why do you think she would chose to focus soooo strongly on this aspect? She also explains this book started as a blog-type mini-series, and that's where the chapter break downs came into play. Do you think its a possibility that the 'write a little bit' each day strategy rather than 'I'm going to sit down and write a novel" approach detracted from this book? How and why?
I most definitely think that Frater's approach failed. I've never written anything longer than 6 pages that has been published, so I can't say for sure, but I think it would make more sense if you started with an outline of the ENTIRE book, not just sit at your computer for, say, an hour each nite and just spew nonsense. It obviously makes for a dis-jointed, NOT very well thought out narrative. It doesn't work here. I am STILL trying to figure out why she chose to focus so strongly on the LGBT aspect; its clear she doesn't really know what she is talking about. To me, THAT was the single most insulting aspect of this book: Frater pandering to bored housewives and perhaps men with a 'lesbo' and her 'switch-er-oo' over to Travis. Does she think her readers are stupid? Has she ever met a gay or bi person? Does she even realize they ARE NOT the same thing??? These are story elements that I DESPISED and really felt ripped off by them. Not 'ripped off' in terms of money, but in terms of time, and in terms of the fact that the story started soooo strongly. That's the biggest question that remains for me...why did she choose to include the 'gay' character in the first place if she knew she couldn't do it right? I SOOOOO wish Frater would jump on this thread like Paul did for Tankbread. I would LOVE to ask her a few things....

#7. Overall, what did you think of this one? Any important things you think I missed that need mentioning? And once again, the 'trick question': if you could ask the group one question about this section, what would it be?
I think "Phew!!! I DIDN'T vote for this book, and I got stuck modding it...ARG...I'm soooo glad it's over!!!" LOL...that's really it in a nutshell. I am very upset that Frater seems to have so much talent and yet this book just TOTALLY tailspinned into a disaster!!! Once again, I rated it 3 stars. I haven't wrote a detailed review, but Tammy's 'spoiler post' that she put up after she finished sums up my feelings COMPLETELY. It is dead on as to why this book still got three stars when the storyline would have gotten it only 1 or 2 stars. Frater showed immense promise, then let us down. I'm just glad the 1st is tomorrow, which means I can wash my hands of this one and focus on Desolation and Undead L.A.!!! Oh, and remind me NEVER to mod again!!! LOL ;-P

[Lana]

Rhiannon Frater is very active on Facebook and I'm sure she'd answer any questions you ask her. From what I know about her, she did suffer from some sort of abuse in her past. She's married and she has a gay male friend who lives with them. He's also a writer by the name of Kody Boye. She has one other stand alone zombie tale called Last Bastion of the Living. It was very different than the As the World Dies series. She seems to be trying to leave zombies behind and has a couple of vampire series...but I have not tried them because I'm kind of bored with vampires and I think they have more sex in them :-)

Tammy, I would love to answer your questions when I have a bit more time (and energy) than I do at this time of night. I really feel I waste too much of my time at work when there are so many much more interesting and fun things I could be doing!

[Thia]

BTW there is another gay male character that pops in later in the series that is handled much better. He and his girlfriend became my two favorite characters - described as the Tigger to her Eeyore respectively. Frater hit with this relationship what I think she was trying to pull off with Jenni and Katie. I really understood who these two were, why they were so closely bonded, and believed they would jump in front of a zombie for the other. Their back story is in one of the untold tales volumes.

After reading everyone else's comments I think I have put my finger on why I was so ultimately disappointed in this series. Reason one - I loved the "world" Frater created. I could see it, smell it, and hear it. So much potential until it went wildly off the rails for me at the Fort. Reason two - I was very excited to read something in this genre written about women by a woman. Don't get me wrong, I don't care who writes good characters, and some men like DJ Molles hit the nail right on the head with the women characters they write. But very often, in what would otherwise be a good book, the women characters drive me NUTS. They are either two dimensional Pam Anderson types or they are the weepy helpless types. At best if they are strong and fighters they are still written as men who happen to have boobies. I guess I had hoped the women characters (Nerit excepted) in this series would be better. If I hadn't known better I would have assumed Katie and Jenni were written by a man who couldn't write women. The two supposedly strong women characters written by a WOMAN were the two who rang the most untrue to me and irritated me to distraction. There are several more stereotypically bad women characters that pop up in later books as well. Ah well...

[Tammy K.]

Teresa wrote: "So sorry, guys! I've been laying in bed for 2 days now. I think I'm coming down with a wicked nasty chest cold :-( Anyway, I'm trying to just answer these questions and put this book behind me. I'm..."

Teresa.. LOL. I am laughing so hard after reading your final questions that my cheeks are burning. *Sucks in a deep breath here, begins laughing again.*

I think you nailed it a while back when you said that you were like me in being "outspoken."

So many times as I read your last comments, I said out-loud "just tell us how you really feel."

You went places that I would have not gone!
*chuckles to herself*

I agree that this BOTM NEEDS to be over tonight! I haven't started Desolation yet but the first assignment is only 58 pages.
(Oh and keep in mind that since Randy separated Desolation's discussion into three different pages, you can post your comments pretty much whenever you want. I plan on sticking to posting on the discussion days but going back to the other threads as others add their comments)

To Rhiannon Frater,
I am 100% certain that the last thing any author wants to read is a section by section breakdown of their work.
The breakdown here was more "sharp" some moments than it might have been had the topic matter not be of such a sensitive nature.
Yet each and every reader was able to walk away from this BOTM with something positive to say about the book.
I hope you take the praise and the critical critiques together and walk away knowing that if nothing else, your work had made a lasting impression (Whether or not we will read on in this series).
Respectfully,
TammyK

[Tammy K.]

Lana wrote: "Rhiannon Frater is very active on Facebook and I'm sure she'd answer any questions you ask her. From what I know about her, she did suffer from some sort of abuse in her past. She's married and s..."

No worries on answering my last set of questions to you.
I am sure that the longer we are in the Zombies! group together, the more likely it is that we'll get back to those questions in other threads.

As for Kody Boye, I really owe that author more reviews, as I have read a couple of his books. (Each one having a different degree of "success" with me.)
I think it was last month that I read Sunrise
I gave it 4 stars. I posted my review for it on both goodreads and Amazon, figuring that was the best way to praise that book.
Here is a link to my review of it
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I was kinda hoping to get Sunrise as a BOTM for this group one day, if not than a buddy read.
I did not know that Kody Boye lived with Mrs. Frater, but that does not change my views of either authors work.

Regarding the comment about Facebook:
I have never had, nor will I ever have, a Facebook account. I physically cringe at the very thought of getting one. But that is my own ... "quirk". :-)
It is my hope that if an author ever wants to discuss my review or participate in either the buddy reads or BOTMs that I am involved in, than they will simply do so via that goodreads thread.
Wishing you a good night.
TammyK

[Lana]

And Tammy, I gotta say, you REALLY hit the nail on the head by focusing on that word 'willingly.' Because I thought "Whoa!!! There is NO way that Juan could be only the second guy Jenni has ever been with; not with the way she has been acting the whole book!!!!"

As I finally was able to read to the end of the book last night and came to this point I noticed something very interesting. In the version of the book that I'm reading, which I downloaded from Barnes and Noble to my Nook just as we started this read, the word "willingly" is not included. Its simply written as "Jenni felt no fear as only the second man she had ever been with lifted her into his arms,"

Its a small thing, but I found it interesting, and probably was left out during one of the edits as the book went from self-published to professionally published.

When I got to the part where Juan makes the comment "Yeah, well, you try to be a Hispanic male in a white society and se if you feel comfortable with that answer", I assumed that the remark came from his lifetime experience as a Hispanic male overall, and not just his experience in Ashley Oaks. I think most minorities feel that way at some point. I made a similar remark to my significant other over something he said a few days ago, to the point that he was speaking from the viewpoint of a middle class white male who's always had the top advantages in this society.

And finally, you guys are WAY nicer than I am when it comes to Ritchie, the drug dealer. I'd have killed him outright and immediately. I wouldn't have thrown him to the hungry zombies, however, I'd have just executed him, shot him at the same time they shot his newly-turned zombie girlfriend. My reasons are that he was a vile excuse for a human, as a drug dealer he was responsible for doing things without thought or care for his fellow humans before the zombie outbreak, then spent several weeks holed up with his friends until he was desperate for more drugs and sent one of his "friends" out as bait for the zombies so he could escape, headed straight for the place where there was a huge amount of zombies in search for his drugs, then led them straight to the fort gates instead of listening to instructions. He would never be able to be trusted, and I've learned from so many other stories that those bad loose ends just come back to bite you.

[Tammy K.]

No matter if Juan was the second guy she was Willingly with or not, I felt that scene was not a necessary part of the book. It was cheaply thrown into the plot to make a clear path for Katie to switch her affections off Jenni romantically and onto Travis.
The whole "get myself a guy/gal" is what spoils this zombie novel. Whether or no Jenni and Katie are focused on each other or one of the guys it just did not fit into the overall story.The romantic scenes where "dropped" into the plot. Very little build up to them. The characters flipped their positions on their own sexuality and feeling for each other more times than I could count.

Thanks to all who participated in this BOTM. It is clear that most of us had similar reading experiences with this book.
I'm sorry that Heather (who nominated this book) never found the opportunity to participate in these last two weeks. Maybe the next BOTM she will jump in?

I wish you all a great day.
I will not be posting on this thread again as I've said more on this book (which I didn't vote for as a BOTM) than I planned.

[Teresa]

Lana,
Interesting changes have been made to the book apparently. I still stand by my views. And I feel as though I must speak up one last time for Ritchie. I don't know whether you read my answers or not, but I AM offended that you would call Ritchie a 'vile excuse for a human.' I get it, I get it. Those of you who have never had an addiction have NO IDEA how hard it actually is. I swear, some people act like druggies ASKED to be that way. What about doctors that WAY over-prescribe pain-killers? Then their patients end up as addicts in like 2.4 seconds? Yeah, every one thinks it 'just can't happen to them.' But I got news for ya...one car wreck, one debilitating injury, and you're an addict. I see sooooooo many older people that are prescribed WAAAAYYYY too high of doses of stuff, and this poor man that just had surgery who is whacked out of his mind on dope- prescribed STRAIGHT from the local drug dealer- yes...I mean the local DOCTOR!!!!! All I can do for these people is warn them NOT to even START taking those pills. If I have to, I tell them my story so they realize how desperately serious my warning is. To say that you would just shoot him, just execute him REALLY upsets me. It makes me wonder where my life would be if EVERYONE thought about druggies the way you do. I would have NEVER sought help, being scared of being executed and all, and who KNOWS where my life would be now? But still, that's not the point. The point is 90% of the drug dealers I came across DIDN'T USE DRUGS!!!!! WHY??? Because they saw firsthand the zombie like shells of a human drug addiction leaves behind and didn't want to be like that!!! And what 'instructions' are you referring to? He didn't 'not follow instructions' by doing ANYTHING he did BESIDES not driving around the block when he finally got to the fort. Which, seeing as how his motorcycle ran out of gas before he even GOT to the gate, wasn't even an option in the first place. But for you to say 'he would never be able to be trusted,' is a GROSS MIS-STATEMENT!!!! After all, if addicts could 'never be trusted,' I sure as s*&t WOULD NOT be working around 20k dollars cash money everyday, now would I? I also, if incapable of ever being trusted again, probably would have just copped out of this book read since I didn't really enjoy it that much. BUT, I agreed to be mod, and I followed through, which is more than anyone that voted for this book did. I hope that, if ANYTHING, you can learn from me that having a checkered past DOES NOT make you a walking screw up FOREVER. I think I am a stronger person than most because of my personal struggles. And I'm used to people assuming that I HAVE TO BE A BAD PERSON...my family and friends know differently, and that's all I need. However, my question for you is, 'How would you feel if you found out that Travis is a recovering alcoholic?' Would you 'execute' him, too? Would you think his 'good guy' personality is just a ruse? This ALWAYS gets my goat- people think alcohol is okay, and drugs are bad (BOTH ARE BAD!!!!). I don't want to seem like I'm yelling at you, but come on! Its the 21st century...chances are pretty good that you deal with an ex-addict EVERY DAY if you live even in a small city. Maybe your barista, or your local bookseller (Ha! that's the first job I had after getting clean!!!), or maybe your secretary. I'm just saying that addicts are VERY mis-understood. It adds to the problem. The finger pointing makes it hard for people with problems to ask for help. It is a NIGHTMARE to live that way; I KNOW! I'm sorry, your comment just went through me BIG TIME. I just ask you to think whether your opinion would change if one of your family members or loved ones had a problem. If NOTHING ELSE, just take it from me that, YES, WE CAN BE TRUSTED AGAIN!!!! No, addicts do NOT deserve trust; we EARN it...more and more with each sober day that passes. It isn't an easy journey, but I am so glad its over now. As I said, its made me a stronger person. By all means, if you need more CORRECT information on this subject, PM me and we can talk about it. Don't think I'm jumping on ya, it just REALLY offended me...

[Teresa]

Tammy K. wrote: "
Regarding the comment about Facebook:
I have never had, nor will I ever have, a Facebook account. I physically cringe at the very thought of getting one. But that is my own ... "quirk". :-)
It is my hope that if an author ever wants to discuss my review or participate in either the buddy reads or BOTMs that I am involved in, than they will simply do so via that goodreads thread. ..."

Stay away from Facebook!!! It's the devil!!! LOL...seriously though...it IS awful 'dramatic' on there sometimes! And I agree that I would prefer Mrs. Frater to come on here to speak with us; I'm certainly not going to hunt her down just to tell her I thought she only wrote a 'so-so' book. And yes, Tammy, sometimes I can be a bit outspoken. Just a wee little bit though ;-) I think I was just a little cranky last nite and it showed through in my answers. Although I DID leave another quite outspoken rant just a moment ago. I guess I just speak up on things I feel need said! LOL...have a great day, everyone!!! Hope to see you all on the Undead L.A. thread!!!

[Teresa]

Oh...one last tiny little comment on Ritchie, which I must thank my better half for pointing out. Being a meth cook (which, I might as well admit, I've NEVER done, or even seen meth), Ritchie HAD to have a basic knowledge of chemistry. He was probably one step away from blowing himself up every single time he cooked the crap...which means that he may have been VERY important to the group after getting straightened out. If he can make meth, he can definitely build a bomb! THAT could have came in handy at some point, I'm sure...

[Lana]

Teresa, my comment about Ritchie was not because he was a drug addict, its about choices he made and he also just happened to be a drug addict. He seems to have a very low understanding of basic right and wrong. I don't think that happened after he became a drug dealer (note: he's a DRUG DEALER not just an addict). I think he became a drug dealer because of his low character and morals. Not every addict does anything they can, up to, and including killing their friends in horrible ways, to save themselves. Not every addict would completely disregard the safety of everyone else to save themselves. What I see in Ritchie is someone who has no regard for anyone but himself and I think his choices regarding his chosen profession and his behaviour show that he is a vile human being. I can see that you took my opinion about the character in the book who doesn't seem to be expecting to change his behaviour and personalized it based on your experience. I do know that not all drug addicts are killers. Not all drug addicts are bad people. I know what addiction is. I also know that it takes a lot of strength to make the choice not to ever touch whatever it is that you're addicted to ever again. I'm simply saying that given what I know of about this character in this book in this situation, and based on what Juan gave us about his past, and that everyone's survival depends on some basic trust, I would not have given him a chance to cause the death of anyone of the people in the fort that I had been living with for months, grown to know and cared about.

[Teresa]

Lana wrote: "Teresa, my comment about Ritchie was not because he was a drug addict, its about choices he made and he also just happened to be a drug addict. He seems to have a very low understanding of basic r..."

No comment...

Now, moving on to the next BOTM, *poof* I'm done with this thread!

[Flint]

I thought this was a great series, but the forced romances in the books were goddamn awful.