SOS: Serious Overload of Series discussion
General Discussion
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Holy Reader Bailout, Batman! ༄ If You're Leaving, Let Us Know Before Ya Go! ༄
Hmmm. Well, the good news is that, yes, it appears that I only had one "Die Therapie" book. Since I never used GR as my main source for cataloging my TBR, deleting that one book is no big deal for me -- there are many books in my TBR that I've never added to GR. I use Readerware and I'll cross-check my "read" list with my database to make sure it's not one I've actually read -- much shorter list to deal with. It will be my furlough project.What I've found hilarious are the books with the completely wrong covers (Sherwood Smith book cover on Magic Gifts by Ilona Andrews??).
I stumbled upon how to change book covers early on because I started clicking on things, just to see what they'd do. Self-destruct buttons better be labeled as such, or I'll end up clicking them.;)
Booklikes posts that they're not using that confusing "die therapie" cover anymore and that if we just wait a bit, and watch the settings-> import-> import-page we should see more and more of the green empty covers updating to be the correct ones. (Probably ehy I could not find one for the screen capture).I've decided to ignore my books there until Thursday and just enjoy friend postings, collect tips, etc. Then find out what new features Thursday offers up and have a look at my imported books again.
Being told "done" this weekend then seeing what looked like a lot of fixing to be done was discouraging. But I'm perked up now. Right in time for some real life last quarter of the year work projects to swamp me.
How do you add book covers to a BL blog post?
Josie wrote: "How do you add book covers to a BL blog post?"You might find the answer here:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Yeah, I did check that topic but it's talking about the actual book covers themselves, not images in a review (which I kind of worked out how to do).Do you know where you find previously saved drafts of blog posts?
Josie - Click on blog and under your 'Currently Reading' books, you'll see links to 'all posts' and 'drafts'.
I'm also looking for more than just a book cataloging and review site. I want groups. Not just message boards. I have paperbackswap for message boards, and fictfact for series tracking. But I love goodreads groups. Hopefully if goodreads is going downhill, booklikes will have some decent groups set up soon. I would seriously miss my reading challenges here. I don't like that librarything makes you pay to shelve more than 200 books. I can just create my own spreadsheet to catalog books. I don't need to pay a website for that.
You know, I know all that's happened on GR and I am a bit upset with how they went about the whole thing. Even though it didn't affect me in a big way, it affected some of my best GR friends. And I am upset with that. I would be upset if some of my content was deleted as well.But the new rules that has made so many want to leave as not convinced me to leave, even though so many of my friends are. In the past I have tried/signed up for other bookish sites and they all fail in comparison to what all GR offers me.
On Booklikes, it is cool with the setup of it looking like tumblr where you get to reblog and like and you have your own blog and stuff, but the search function and how they set up the book format is whacked. It is just way too whacked for me. And I hate too many things that it doesn't have. It would be cool if a bookish site compared to how much stuff GR has got created, I don't see that happening though.
GR the search function may be screwed up a bit, but it still way better than BL function. GR, we have groups, discussion forums, lists, polls, recommendation, book description page with all the reviews, etc. everything on GR is setup so professionally done to make to my liking and I don't think I would ever leave that. I'm just sad a majority of my GR friends will be doing so. I have in the past had GR do some things to piss me off, but I could never get myself to really leave. GR is my true home for all things bookish.
I have made a Booklikes page though to try and keep in contact with those friends that will be leaving though, But my home will be GR.
Booklikes: http://cr6zym0nkeyiz.booklikes.com/
Mariya wrote: "... everything on GR is setup so professionally..."Because we made it that way.
That said, I am starting to loathe booklikes for book stuff but love it for the friend feed. So, with so many friends there, likely staying. With features being added all the time, certainly still giving it a chance.
Mariya wrote: "You know, I know all that's happened on GR and I am a bit upset with how they went about the whole thing. Even though it didn't affect me in a big way, it affected some of my best GR friends. And I..."I tend to agree with you. I don't like how this was rolled out, am mad that people's shelves/reviews were deleted, and I am very sad so many great reviewers have left GR.
GR is definitely easier to use and better for social interaction.
Regardless of which site you make a permanent home, I'm glad many people are looking into a back up place. I'm here and there, and like the new stuff to play with, but also agree...love many features here and not willing to give that up, at least for now!
I'm definitely sticking around here, but also went ahead and added a booklikes account:http://daffodil.booklikes.com
AH wrote: "I tend to agree with you. I don't like how this was rolled out, am mad that people's shelves/reviews were deleted, and I am very sad so many great reviewers have left GR.GR is definitely easier to use and better for social interaction."
Ditto.
And, like Sandra said, we (the Mods) are stickin' around. SOS isn't going anywhere. :)
For those of you following this issue, take a look at this book - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...As the reviews don't seem to pop up on the book page a list of the reviews can be found on this review.
I'm saddened to see so many good reviewers leave GR.
AH wrote: "For those of you following this issue, take a look at this book - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...As the reviews don't seem to pop up on the boo..."
Thanks for the link. I just got home from a weekend in London and I need to catch up.
But, yes, this is sad.
There's also this associated event: https://www.goodreads.com/event/show/...
Book, reviews, and event have all been deleted.
Rachel- Goodbye Borders wrote: "Book, reviews, and event have all been deleted."Yes, but they'll be back.
All of this gives me a migraine. And, it's just plain depressing, frustrating, infuriating, add feeling/adjectives here ...Do ya'll think this will eventually be resolved to everyone's liking? A happy medium, maybe? I'm feeling skeptical. And, that's very unlike me, which makes me even more sad. Goodreads used to represent happiness, community, friendship, like-minds, discovery, exploration, laughter. *sad*so very, very sad*
On GR, I've never bashed anyone or been bashed, for that matter. I count myself lucky. Bullying and censorship are disgusting and unacceptable.
Whenever I try to stop and think about all I'm reading on the chaos, I can't help but wonder how GR/TPTB won't/can't admit that book buying (and by default reading and reviewing) is often based on more than an appealing cover and blurb. At times, the author(s), the publisher, the marketer are consideration factors as well. If you don't support those entities you won't buy the book.
-- This makes me think of the tuna boycotts in the '80s when Sam La Budde films dolphins being caught and killed while netting for tuna.
As a result, "In 1990, the three largest tuna companies in the world - StarKist, Bumblebee, and Chicken of the Sea - agreed to stop purchasing, processing, and selling tuna caught by intentional chasing and netting of dolphins.Authors cannot expect readers to create "author's feelings safe" review labels. Surely, the majority do not intentionally seek to hurt the feelings of an author. However, honest reviews and ratings will sometimes do just that. And, if a person chose to avoid an author because of their improper, impolite, unappealing behavior and their shelves are there to sort their books, it's not surprising shelves such as "author to avoid" or "will not read" would begin to appear. The fact that others share their opinion and chose to create similar shelves should also be no big surprise. Why do they (GR/TPTB) think they have enough similar shelving habits to create a "Top shelves" list in the first place.
Due to legislation in the U.S. Congress, supported by IMMP and the tuna industry, this standard of "non-encirclement" of dolphins became the U.S. legal standard for the "Dolphin Safe" tuna label."
I read an article someplace that remarked on the behaviors of self-published authors (those who do not have -a brain- or a publicist or such to -teach them manners- help them navigate the waters of good and bad reviews to know when to -keep negative thoughts between themselves and their therapist/partner/family- refrain from engaging in direct and inflammatory communication with or about their readers. And, the influx of self-published authors, due in large part to the ease of doing so, has led to (or at the very least contributed greatly) the author/reviewer battles of late.
I can see that. I can see that some may find it difficult to turn away from the screen, focus on the good vs. bad, and just accept that not everyone will love what they've put out there for the world to read. But, why should the reader/review be punished?
Like it or not, authors and readers have a symbiotic relationship - albeit a sometimes parasitic one. If authors do not write books, we do not have books to read. During my time on GR, I have learned the power a book review can have when it is shared with another person. That said, I still have a mind of own. If I love Coke and you love Pepsi, no matter how well you describe your love for the taste or the color of its pretty blue can, I will still avoid Pepsi and drink Coke. That does not mean, I cannot enjoy your montage about the joys of crackin' open a can of Pepsi and your drinking experience.
I truly and sincerely hope that this is not the beginning of the end of GR. I trusted the TPTB when they said,
It's important to be clear that Goodreads and the awesome team behind it are not going away. Goodreads will continue to be the wonderful community that we all cherish. We plan to continue offering you everything that you love about the site—the ability to track what you read, discover great books, discuss and share them with fellow book lovers, and connect directly with your favorite authors—and your reviews and ratings will remain here on Goodreads.Well, some of that is already proving false. Here's hoping wrongs can be righted before all those who made GR GReat are gone.
Thus ends my cry and rant. Apologies for anything that doesn't quite make sense outside of my rattled brain; thank you for listening! (((GR friends)))
Well said Steph.From publisher's weekly: "...director of author marketing at Goodreads, Pat Brown, spoke about how the company remains, even after being acquired by Amazon, a place for authors and their fans." (Emphasis mine)
The article is here
So, in all honesty (and not to be negative), I'm not optimistic that the situation will improve. This used to be a site for us; the regular Janes and Joes who loved to read, those who might read a lot or a little, and those who review every book they read to those who don't.
Thanks, Rachel.O.o *sniffle*
I've bookmarked the article to read tomorrow. I need to space out my consumption of this madness. My heart just can't take it in large doses anymore.
Wow, nice article. He also said, "...Goodreads is eager to get more authors engaged, and that currently the site has 90,000 author-users...."I wasn't optimistic before, and this makes me even less so.
And all the marketing crap in the world misses out somehow that sometimes a reader is just not in the mood to read a certain book. No matter what their data indicates.I've gotten some really strange reads because I have trouble not buying a book when I'm in the bookstore or library and the author is signing.
Other than that, two real life friends, detailed group discussions with reviewers I follow making a book sound good -- word of mouth and even book covers don't phase me.
Of course, if I see a really interesting cover in a bookstore I am likely to flip over to read the blurb to see if sounds interesting -- but online there are so many bookcover thumbnails that not even that catches my eye. And a bad cover doesn't stop me from buying any more than lack of word of mouth or good ratings on sites like goodreads.
Steph - you said it so well. It really is a shame that they have not made a site wide announcement on how they will proceed from now on. In the past 3 weeks most of the discussions I've been following haven't even been about books. I miss our squee-ing about new books. I miss being able to say "Kiyo must die" and having a group of people know what I'm talking about.
I don't think anyone can post anything in feedback group anymore without a bandwagon jumping in to relate it to the so-called "important note about reviews" thing.I'm beyond furious about the announcement myself, but if a member is just posting for help with a site bug like needing their reading stats refreshed -- not the place to jump in and hijack that thread to make it another 500-6,000 message thread about the new policies.
Thanks for sharing the article, Rachel. Some add'l comments that popped out at me were ..."Brown said Goodreads wants to see every book on the planet categorized and listed on its site."
Many librarians have stopped adding data. For this to happen, GR is going to have to mend those fences or start adding books themselves.
"Brown said the goal is to [...] to teach [authors] how to engage with the community around reading, as opposed to using the site as a way to engage in a sales proposition. While he acknowledged that the ultimate goal for authors will be to sell their book, Brown said the key is for authors to think about “engaging with users around reading,” and not to simply promote themselves or their work."
Some authors "engage with users around reading" very well. Others simply try to blast their books in the face of every user and group on GR, which has been a turn-off. So, more work necessary on GR's part for this to happen, IMO.
"Brown noted that Goodreads is eager to get more authors engaged, and that currently the site has 90,000 author-users, from huge brand names to debut writers, but it is always looking, of course, to bring more into the fold."
Brown (and other TPTB) must realize their negative publicity of late is not the best way to recruit authors and sell themselves as a friendly spot to chat.
AH wrote: "I miss our squee-ing about new books. I miss being able to say "Kiyo must die" and having a group of people know what I'm talking about."
Thanks, AH. I agree. I for one am happy to have finally finished reading Dark Swan. I'm still squee-ing about new books, it's just harder to find someone to squee with lately. We're here though. And, we're happy to squee with ya LOL! :)
It's definitely sad that the first thought that crosses my mind when I find an unmarked book I know I've read is no longer, "Oh, here's another book I forgot to add to my shelves." Instead, I question what shelf name I would have come up with for that book and whether it would have been misunderstood and summarily judged unacceptable.
That is sad, Daffodil.Thanks, Ames.
I really loved it here and it was so wonderful having the book cataloging info so thorough and so well-ordered thanks to the dedication of so many members of this community.The book cataloging here, at least when we were allowed to catalog our books to suit our preferences (including shelf names/options), isn't something I've yet to find anywhere else -- including standalone software/apps, booklikes, and Library Thing.
I loved the thoroughness of the goodreads database, including the out of prints, multiple book editions and the series information. And I know that's a combination of efforts by this site's readers, authors and librarians -- plus there is no way it would not have been a big unorganized mess without librarian efforts to keep database in compliance as far as standard author names so books by an author all go on the author page, editions combined, etc. Not something goodreads staff resources could have handled alone.
Once amazon has their data re-integrated into goodreads database and can ensure that all their products/books for sale update to it, they're done. That's their priority and the rest of the data, reviews, member shelving/cataloging, etc. can crash, have bugs, or never get added to by any librarian or member. If their product shows, they're fine. Any other data errors can always wait to be fixed or blamed on third parties like booklikes. Not sure they care about librarians not adding data or doing edits unless of personal use to them; once goodreads database matches what amazon's database says for the products currently for sale -- I'm convinced they just won't care about cataloging anything else including members' personal inventory or "every book in the world."
They are expecting plenty of new members from kindle integration and to get ratings and limited, sanitized reviews added as those new members finish a book on kindle (short and sweet limited character space and not easiest to type out on a touchscreen). Authors will be happily sock-puppeting reviews, getting "inappropriate to community tone" ones removed and no doubt eventually voting helpful up/down campaigns just like on amazon. I got the impression from gr promotional talks and posts that seeing reviews first from friends and followed reviewers may be changing to seeing reviews the newly hired data scientist determine are most useful to us. No doubt ran by by the context telepaths they already have in place.
If current products okay and appropriate toned-reviews only -- the rest of our data no longer matters. Reviewers, friends, followers -- nope, not interested in those relationships unless they can get tame reviewers willing to crank out good promotional material and convince members to follow them.
Not adding content and pulling content is about the only form of protest left (other than star rating what we used to be able to shelve) to some who aren't completely deleting their account -- but I really don't think amazon will give a flying flip once their product data is in place and just like on amazon.com; possibly they will even gradually fade out librarians despite the free labor after they get rid of the ability for members to add a book manually (I can see having to email or fill out a form that staff reviews before a book gets added). I'm not sure amazon is going to care if all editions of a book are accurate and combined into correct work so long as editions they have for sale are correct (I can even see them allowing authors to delete no longer available editions or bookcovers). Okay, basically, I can see them giving authors everything that makes them happy even if it means goodreads' book data pages just become another product page for an author to manage however they see fit.
I'm still angry over how the announcement was made (and still furious that it made it sound like goodreads ever permitted threatening content within existing TOS guidelines) -- but, I'm just mournful and disgusted at how the deletions are being handled (i.e., clearly just to mollify a few vocal whack-job authors and to try to enforce amazon's view of a proper community tone without them actually putting those rules into the TOS). Goodreads is being dismantled to be replaced with an amazon lookalike with author product pages.
I'm trying to hang in and keep a book catalog; I still like seeing what my friends are reading in the status updates and what content they are still sharing. I'm trying to post my currently readings and a few group participations. But it's already a ghost of its former self and I'm not even looking at average ratings or any reviews by people I'm not already following.
And, by the way, I never had reviews, shelves or other content deleted. Nor do I object to a site policing the site content providing the guidelines are clear, fairly enforced, and clearly communicated to all members.(nor did I ever have bba shelves or engaged with authors other than pleasant conversations on and off reviews, blocking a few spammers, and about 13 months ago one idiot complaining about my sole rating of "I liked it" and a flattering review because I did not leave a 5-star rating and he was going to turn me into support if I did not justify to him why not and put that justification in my review or I would be sorry -- blech -- no drama, I just blocked him and deleted my review and 1-starred the book that now disgusted me).
Great posts.Steph, I feel exactly the same way as message 70.
Sorry to hear about your bad experience with an author Debbie, but it's good to hear that you've had more positive than negative experiences.
I'm not a reviewer (mainly because I'm lazy and sometimes I don't want to feel like I'm at school where I have to analyse everything - the only reviews I write are for Bingo and if I have something I want to say) and it is doubtful that any review I have written has been read by anyone or will even effect anyone. However, I've started deleting all my reviews. It's not a great loss to GR or me or potential readers, but I feel I have to do my own protest as well.
I have got to the stage where I honestly don't trust GR anymore. I was on my profile yesterday and looked at how many I'd read, and thought "how do I know that GR hasn't deleted anything?" and then "would I be surprised?". I have lost faith with them. It would help if GR gave more of a response than the three or so messages that Kara has written. Very disappointing. At least, when the whole GR-sold-to-Amazon debacle came out, Otis did answer questions.
Also, does anyone know how accurate the rating details are (i.e. the # of people who rated a book _ stars)?
Josie wrote: "Also, does anyone know how accurate the rating details are (i.e. the # of people who rated a book _ stars)? ..."Depends on cache speeds. Cache can delay rating details 10-minutes to 72 hours when there are no data issues (so generally should at least accurately include all reviews and ratings more than 72 hours old). Goodreads has been having some database issues so those times may currently be different.
Authors can edit book details and down righthand column refresh ratings to force the cache update for their books (or can request a librarian). Currently there's a sporadic glitch where it clears/flatlines the ratings so that authors/librarians need to hit the refresh button twice.
Well if you look at the book page for Happy Hour, all the filter details are incorrect. Not sure why.
Debbie - barely here - wrote: "And, by the way, I never had reviews, shelves or other content deleted. Nor do I object to a site policing the site content providing the guidelines are clear, fairly enforced, and clearly communi..."I feel your pain, Debbie. For the past couple of months, I’ve been stalked by a rabid, paranoid, delusional author who’s convinced that I and some nebulous gang of reviewers/editors have conspired against her to force her to accept editorial services. Never mind that I’ve never contacted her or that my review was complimentary: I dared to criticize the lack of editing and made the fatal mistake of upgrading my rating from a 2 to a 3 in the interest of fairness after I’d posted the review and realized that most indies’ work is in the same state (hers was one of the first indie books I reviewed). I got GR to remove a libelous blog post she made about me, but she’s at it again in the guise of a hypothetical situation that says almost exactly the same thing she said in the first libelous post, and I don’t know whether they’ll take it down because of the underhanded way she stated it as hypothetical in an attempt to get away with libeling me yet again. Anyone who read her original post would know she’s referring to me—and she put it on her website, too. In her new post, she calls for sanitized reviews. Big surprise.
Anyway, all her garbage and what’s going on at GR have me at the point of never touching any indie’s book again and maybe never posting reviews. I’m with you, Steph: sad.
Somewhat off-topic for this thread and originally found in a booklikes post somewhere but:"Sanitized" shows up a lot when amazon talks about community forums and book reviews.
Even in job descriptions at amazon for forum moderators:
"We like to think of our forums as a Free-Speech Zone. And freedom works best at the point of a bayonet – or a “Delete Post” button. As Forum Moderator, it'll be your job to keep the forums safe and sanitary, while highlighting the posts that actually have something valuable to say... Additionally, moderators will be responsible for developing content, such as discussion starters and games, to better engage the community, as well as supporting marketing efforts...." —source = http://www.amazon.com/gp/jobs/230906/... (emphasis mine).
(I see the word "sanitary" and think feminine hygiene products aisle, although admittedly I liked where that job description says Dr. Who knowledge is a plus until I realize these are the same folks who assume goodreads members are all whiny, pimply preteens if young or old hardcore gamers and geeks if not and either way can be easily condescended to and dismissed except for our wallets.)
Debbie - barely here - wrote: "Somewhat off-topic for this thread and originally found in a booklikes post somewhere but:"Sanitized" shows up a lot when amazon talks about community forums and book reviews.
Even in job desc..."
Not to get even farther off topic, but I particularly like this line of the job description: "Ability to self-manage and self-motivate in the face of ambiguity." Whose, I wonder? It's so ambiguous!
And thanks for the products-aisle laugh!
Josie wrote: "I have got to the stage where I honestly don't trust GR anymore. I was on my profile yesterday and looked at how many I'd read, and thought "how do I know that GR hasn't deleted anything?" and then "would I be surprised?". I have lost faith with them. ...."That's exactly the way I feel. I've never had a review flagged or deleted. I've never had a shelf dedicated to bad authors. Heck, I don't even have any shelves for favorite authors. Except for a 2013 TBR list, they're all genre, supernatural character type or cover color. That's why it's sad that I'm paranoid about losing data on books I've already read. I've just read a couple instances too many about misunderstood or ambiguous shelves being deleted without any investigation at all.
The overall impression I've been left with is GR is shifting focus to a sales driven site ... And God help the reader that interferes with those sales in any way.
This all makes me wonder if Amazon has really thought things through. I would assume one of the attractions of GR as a possible purchase was all the potential
I think that what pisses me off the most is that these deletions have been targeted. It's almost as if they took the top reviewers list and deleted reviews from their top reviewers - the people that contribute so much to this site. I never had a review deleted until I reviewed the censorship book that got deleted. It feels awful. I can't imagine losing the bulk of your work.
I follow a lot of people who read a variety of genres - some read books I never would even look at. I love how they add in their own personal life experiences to enrich the book review. It's really sad that these reviewers are being stifled. In turn, the completely useless OMG, ZOMGWTFBBQ reviews full of gifs are allowed to stay on.
BBQ, what BBQ? Where? *giggle* >;) Sorry, excuse inappropriate laughter in times of stress.
I agree, ya'll. I have visions of all of us gathering together, holding a sit-in outside of GR headquarters with jugs and jugs (are there wine kegs? maybe barrels instead of jugs) of wine, stacks and stacks of books and big-ass censor-free review signage. And, banners demanding some answers and, if I could be so bold, support, suggestions, resolutions, something from TPTB. Talk about a fun and lively book club meeting! :D
One thing this upheaval has done in spades is make me aware of just how passionate GRers are about their "home" here on this site. Many of those homes have been violated and people are expressing their upset in so many creative and inspiring ways that you cannot help but jump on board to help fight the good fight - even if we personally have not had anything deleted.
It's equal parts depressing and emboldening.
From the Amazon Forum Moderator job description: "We like to think of our forums as a Free-Speech Zone. And freedom works best at the point of a bayonet – or a “Delete Post” button. As Forum Moderator, it'll be your job to keep the forums safe and sanitary, while highlighting the posts that actually have something valuable to say. You'll slap the bad guys' hands and the good guys' backs. You'll have to shrug off insults and keep a level head no matter how badly the jerks act."
*facepalm*
They should that they also have "delete reviews" and "delete SPA books" buttons.
Yeah, us "jerks" are their customers and they forget that. As often as they seem to forget that, surprise, they also seem to forget we can read which often leads to the insane concept of thinking for ourselves. Just gonna suck us dry like they did Shelfari, so long as their currently for sale books are okay in database not caring about any other books, and once the reviews here are marketing-acceptable and not trusted will consider that a success because no longer competition for the discussion boards and reviews on the amazon site.I don't think they get that getting rid of a competing review site will never = getting those readers to suddenly start using the boards and reviews on amazon.com. It's just a question of some customers and readers use the amazon site and some don't. And if they keep goodreads around as a clone of amazon review versus turning it into a ghosttown like Shelfari, then readers that don't use amazon reviews won't use goodreads. They'll get a year or two out of it. Then another competitor will be in play.
Guess they were trying to funny with the "jerks" comment, but wow! Bad.
Amy or "Ames" {Against GR Censorship} wrote: "BookLikes now has groups - Yay!"Hmmmm, thoughts on me creating a BL SOS group? I kinda wanna create it now, while groups are new, so that someone else doesn't do it first. *shame*
Go for it Steph!I'm still staying active here on SOS and in RRRC. But you can at least get a little bit of a start up there just in case.
So, now that booklikes has infant-stage groups, any moderator starting a sister SOS group over there? If so, please post url.
Steph, One further comment about a BL SOS group.
Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.
SOS: Serious Overload of Series
Books mentioned in this topic
Off-Topic: The Story of an Internet Revolt (other topics)Happy Hour (other topics)
It's a placeholder for one of your real books, likely one without an isbn. You're intended to go to settings > import > import-page and scroll thru to everywhere you see that bookcover and click the "change" option at far right and search for real book title (which shows in the very first column of the import page).
Unfortunately, I deleted quite a few die therapie books before I found that out. And when trying to find more for screenshot it failed so pretend the first pink cover is a die therapie one: