4. AN ARMY AT DAWN ~ September 30th ~ October 6th ~ PART ONE - 2. LANDING - To the Last Man and "Glory Enough for Us All" and Part One - 3. Beachhead - A Sword in Algiers - (91 - 123) No-Spoilers

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello Everyone,

For the weeks of September 30th - October 6th, we are reading Part One - 2. Landing - To the Last Man and "Glory Enough for Us All" and Part One - 3. Beachhead - A Sword in Algiers of the book - An Army At Dawn..

The fourth week's reading assignment is:

Week Four - September 30th - October 6th
Part One - 2. Landing - To the Last Man and "Glory Enough for Us All" and Part One - 3. Beachhead - A Sword in Algiers - pages 91 - 123

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on September 9th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on September 30th

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Christopher and Jerome.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Rick Atkinson

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Glossary - Part One - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Glossary - Part Two - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Glossary - Part Three - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

by Rick Atkinson

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Part One

2. Landing

To the Last Man

Eisenhower's team viewed Algiers as the key to taking Algeria (and later Tunisia). The easternmost Torch landing point was to be initially taken by Americans. The
American envoy in Algiers, Robert Murphy, was to "secure the understanding and
cooperation of" French officials. An insurgent attack initially succeeded in taking over the power station and official headquarters, and many Vichy officers stood down. Murphy approached the French commander, General Alphonse Pierre Juin, hoping he would cooperate. The two men talked and waited, but the main attack did not come. Slowly, the insurrections began to collapse.

Another badly conceived British plan to take the harbor was also underway; two old
destroyers were charging the harbor. French shells incapacitated the first ship,
Malcolm, almost immediately. The second ship, Bloke, made it into the harbor and
deployed its troops onto the wharf before retreating under intense fire and sinking. The 250 stranded men soon surrendered.

Meanwhile, 33,000 troops were in the process of coming ashore on either side of
Algiers, using tactics similar tactic to those of the Oran landing. Many landing craft went off course or overturned. Still, most French defenders surrendered. American reinforcements were late to back up the doomed harbor attack. The Iowa-based 168th Infantry hurried toward Algiers after finding their bearings; the general inexperience of the troops was showing.

"Glory Enough for Us All"

Kent Hewitt's Task Force 34 was off the Moroccan coast deliberating how to proceed
in turbulent seas, which made an amphibious landing very dangerous. Then the
forecast came in for a return to calm seas, and the invasion was launched. The force
split into three groups to take Safi to the south, Fedala (near Casablanca) to the center,
and Mehdia to the north. The main central force was under the command of General
Patton.

On shore, several insurrection attempts served no purpose other than to alert the
French of the impending invasion. In calm seas and clear skies, landing craft still
managed to become lost, and many men drowned when craft were dropped too far
from shore. Others hit underwater obstacles. Still, all three groups managed to land
most of their troops. At Safi, the beachhead was 5 miles wide by ? mile deep before
early afternoon, when the French garrison surrendered and the city fell.

The reckless harbor attacks on Oran and Algiers show the lack of planning and
overconfidence the British had in conceiving the assaults in the first place. There was
no direct evidence that the French would simply surrender their ports (particularly
since Mast had warned that the Navy would not be friendly!). The British just hoped
for the best and a lot of troops died needlessly. While this attitude sometimes helps in
actual combat, it serves no one well when used in contingency planning.

The airborne assaults were also a disaster from the start. Commanders wanted to use
paratroopers just for the sake of using them. Everything went wrong and the missions
ended up serving no purpose (and in fact stopped valuable aircraft from being used
later). Useful missions of the type planned here would not happen until later in the
war.

Part One

3. Beachhead

A Sword in Algiers

Most of the fighting for the Torch landings took place over three days, from
November 8-10, 1942. At Algiers, several airfields were taken easily and elements of
the 168th infantry soon entered the city itself. The Vichy Commander-in-Chief,
Admiral Jean Louis Darlan realized that it was only a matter of time before the Allies
had control. Over 30,000 Americans and British surrounded his 7,000 troops. He
extended his sword to an American general to officially surrender. The French troops
then went back to their barracks but were allowed to keep their weapons. General
Giraud and Mark Clark arrived to take control of the French forces. After some
negotiation, Darlan agreed to order all French North African troops to cease-fire.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Make sure that you are familiar with the HBC's rules and guidelines and what is allowed on goodreads and HBC in terms of user content. Also, there is no self promotion, spam or marketing allowed.

Here are the rules and guidelines of the HBC:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Please on the non spoiler threads: a) Stick to material in the present week's reading.

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Make sure to cite a book using the proper format.

You don't need to cite the Atkinson book, but if you bring another book into the conversation; please cite it accordingly as required but you do not have to cite the author Atkinson either.

Also, to make it easier - here are the special citation rules for this book discussion - if the person is mentioned in the assigned pages for the weekly reading - you do not have to cite that person even if he or she is an author of books or other documents. However, if you cite someone who is not part of the chapter readings - then you must cite him or her and you must always do a proper citation if you are mentioning any other book aside from An Army At Dawn.

Now we can begin week four.....

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

They Head for Algiers ( p. 93 - 95)

We meet Admiral Jean Louis Xavier Francois Darlan. Atkinson described him as "stumpy and pigeon-breated" given to jocose vulgarity and monologues on the efficiency of the German army, he was the sixty-one year old scion of French sailors.



Atkinson stated that Darlan hated the British because of the death of his great-grandfather at Trafalgar. Churchill called him "a bad man with a narrow outlook and a shifty eye". You have to love Churchill's descriptions (smile).

Churchill expressed to Ike - that "If I could meet Darlan, much as I hate him, I would cheerfully crawl on my hands and knees for a mile if by doing so I could get him to bring that fleet of his into the circle of Allied forces." Roosevelt told Murphy the same without the dramatic touches of Churchill.

Darlan's response: "I have known for a long time that the British are stupid, but I have always believed Americans were more intelligent. Apparently you have the same genius as the British for making massive blunders."

Things went from bad to worse and once again this seemed like an episode from Laurel and Hardy - "Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into."

The British were in a commanding role and the Americans were the supporting cast and this was eerily identical to RESERVIST in folly.

Discussion ideas:

What are your thoughts on this situation and how could bright men like Churchill and the British come up with these kinds of ideas and why did the Americans just go along? And where do you think Ike was in all of this? FDR? Marshall?

What should have happened? And how did poor Murphy (a diplomat) get wrapped up in this donnybrook?

[Tom]

What should have happened? If we are going to arm chair quarterback, how about an old fashioned flag of truce and parsley between the Americans and French with the invasion force visible just out of range. Perhaps a leaflet drop expressing good intentions and the common enemy. The element of surprise would be lost but what good was it anyway. French pride could have been satisfied and the British held in a secondary role as to not inflame French honor. If talks are not productive then invade. Looking back a daylight invasion with no surprise might not have been any worse than the disastrous special oops that gained little or nothing. After a failed peaceful resolution, I would have shelled the fort and garrison as well. I am not saying this plan would have worked either, but I doubt it would have cost more lives than all the confusion of how it really happened.

[Tom]

and that should be parley not parsley...auto correct...tsk tsk

[Bryan]

Thanks, Tom. I think they used leaflets in some areas, but if not, maybe they should have. This whole operation seemed really sloppy, and I wonder if it is combined English influence and American inexperience.

[Tom]

I am really enjoying the discussion Bryan, this is my first one here at Goodreads.

I take it Bentley is under the weather?

[Bryan]

I'm glad you are liking it, Tom, it is a good book.

Bentley will be back shortly; I think he had things to take care of and is traveling.

[Patricrk]

I was surprised about the indecision by the French commanders. If Darlan was that anti-british why did Juin leave him free?

[Bryan]

I agree, Patricrk, it is odd. The Vichy time period made a deep, deep impact on French society. Maybe, in part, it is a power thing: Vichy are with the powerful Germans and want to be on the winning side. Some probably see the writing on the wall or never liked the Germans. Some commanders could be figuring things out.

If I was a French soldier, I don't know what I would do as I faced British and American soldiers. Tough.

[Bryan]

Although Atkinson's focus is not on the native population, the North Africans do emerge in a couple of lines. They are taking canteens, compasses, and propellers from the Allies as they land. In the Patton movie, I remember the scene where the natives were stealing from the dead and wounded.

Any thoughts or insights about this?

[Patricrk]

It was probably the only hope they had of getting anything back for all the damage that was going to happen to their homes, orchards, and relatives. When two armies go at one another the landscape and civilian population is going to suffer.

[Bryan]

I think you are right, Patricrk. The devastation is immense in these situations.

[Tom]

Looting battlefield dead in North Africa was an institutional tradition by 1942 that predated Roman times...I agree about devastation but the "spoils of war" has something to do with it too I think...

[Bryan]

Boy, the exchange between Clark, Darlan, and Petain was crazy. Talk about frustration.

[Vincent]

Bryan wrote: "I think you are right, Patricrk. The devastation is immense in these situations."

Sorry I am so late - I don't think in these situations people are thinking about how their homes might be damaged etc. - I think they are just stealing because they can - and often they may "justify it" by saying that the equipment "belongs to no one" - Of course if the troops would have had to withdraw without propellers and compasses they might be in trouble.

[Vincent]

With all the concerns about the wave height for the landings I am curious what Hewitt might have done without the "good weather forecast" pg. 105 para 3 but I think he would have moved forward - maybe delaying if it was particularly severe on a given day. The thoughts of the Brits if he would have "the courage" was interesting especially if one looks at their disregard for the value of American lives with their plans for the naval attacks at Oran & Algiers. I think that Eisenhower likely agreed for harmony with the Brits who had been fighting in North Africa since 1940 - bad decision.

[Bryan]

Thanks Vince. It does seem a bad idea to follow the British plans on this. We know that the Americans did not favor this operation and we did it because very few choices were available.

I think the U.S. learned some valuable lessons, well, I hope.