Miévillians discussion
This topic is about
Iron Council
Bas-lag 3: Iron Council
>
IC spoiler thread 3: Chapter 10 to end of Chapter 13
When I made my earlier comment saying that the militia's actions could perhaps be understood, I had not yet read the scenes of slaughter which follow in this Part. This is obviously total war on an embarrassing scale, with the strong preying on the weaker, decentralized allies of the enemy for the sake of any small advantage. Of course we don't know what sort of war crimes Tesh is engaging in, or whether the NC militia is simply sinking to their level. Indeed, do we even know who started the war? We can only suppose, based on the repression in the city and how long the war has been going on, that neither side has the advange and as a consequence both strategy and tactics are getting more desperate.
It's still not clear what role the Iron Council actually plays in all this, though.
One thing I'm finding rather surprising about Part 3 is the fairly prominent place sex has within. Miéville's writings are by and large devoid of sex and very light on romance (Perdido Street Station admittedly an exception), so I was surprised to see so many references to and descriptions of sexual encounters.
Perdido was more traditional in that way: the hero is motivated at least in part by an obligation/desire to rescue his lady love, and later by rage and despair over her death. Do the attachments in Council serve a story purpose, or are they a reflection of Miéville's life at the time he wrote this book?
I shall have to keep reading...
You don't remember the sex in The Scar? Gee, some of it even spurred me on to write some tongue-in-cheek 'erotica' into my review...I think Mièville very much sees himself as a champion against racism, sexism and homophobia. His own personal orientations are unknown, and good for him, I say.
Also, if you want 'traditional' norms and conventionality this isn't quite the author we're going to find it with. Mièville is a rebel if I've ever seen one.
I do, but it wasn't particularly notable in the wider context of the plot---unless I'm forgetting something. Miéville expertly avoids inserting a lot of different kinds of bias, I've found. It's refreshing in retrospect, though I tend not to notice as I'm reading.
J. wrote: "I do, but it wasn't particularly notable in the wider context of the plot---unless I'm forgetting something. Miéville expertly avoids inserting a lot of different kinds of bias, I've found. It's ..."
For obvious reasons, in case we have people reading this who haven't read The Scar, I don't want to go into too much detail, but as I remember the plot of The Scar, at least two couples' sexual activities/relationships or shall we say "lovemaking" were central to the plot in The Scar.
I've now finished Part 3, and having a quick peek at the next section, it appears to be quite long!I'll write some further thoughts when I'm not being extremely productive in the middle of a teleconference. :)
There's absolutely no rush... we need to wait for the rest of the group. We haven't really discussed the parts one and two properly yet, let alone part 3... Do keep in mind that our poll says most of our members read less than 80 pages a day. And we really had not given our members enough time to get started on this novel properly, which is actually pretty unfair to the novel.
I really feel bad about that.
But maybe you should post while the ideas are still fresh, so don't let me hold you back--just don't feel pressured to post, is what I'd meant. :)
Mièville really loves his monsters, doesn't he? ..and his bugs. As if the Kehpri weren't enough, we meet new and even more interesting sorts of bugs in this chapter, and of course the giant tortoise was also interesting.
...and then there's that devouring tree, a more creepy version, I thought, of the Construct Council...
..and talking of that tree, wasn't it rather icky when Cutter made love with the hunter just after he had eaten that head? I'm guessing that Cutter is so sexually needy because a large part of his love for Judah is going unrequited. ...which made me muse about why gay sex often appears more casual and promiscuous than hetero sex, to which the answer would appear in part that males generally appear to have bigger appetites in this regard, (I've seemed to notice female gay relationship do tend to be more monogamous, but that could just be me), but also: gay liasons don't generally spawn children, and therefore there is no need to 'get married' or bond into exclusive relationships beyond an emotional need. I mean, there aren't the same traditional practical reasons like having a family together.
I can't help feeling for poor Cutter in his longing for Judah. I can't help partly feeling not only a sexual attraction here, but also a yearning for a father figure. I may be wrong there too, maybe I'm just projecting that, but Judah is after all their sort of idol and therefore also a bit of a father figure.
The Tesh priest is also interesting. Hshe turned out a pretty sad figure. There seems to be a certain rage, and anger in Mièville's writing here, more than I've picked up in any of his novels that I'd read so far.
The turtle gave me sudden flashes of Love Hina: I expected Kaolla Su to dive amongst the militia men and cry, in genuine curiosity, "Dismemberment! Delicious?" It's a shame we just briefly glimpsed it. There's tons of concepts in this book which are both very fascinating and very underutilized. I particularly liked the monk of indeterminate gender. It's interesting that s/he seems to have no identifying characteristics in this regard. Cutter's (Judah's?) group does not comment on the timbre of the person's voice, nor on such things as facial hair, shape of face, size of chest, et cetera. Was the monk's gender in fact taken away, or just the memory thereof as the story told suggests?
It's also funny to have our party zip through landscape once again, but this time with a plausible (if mysterious) reason for the fast pace of storytelling.
Well, since they couldn't see the monk...
You had me doubting myself, Traveller, but the monk was not invisible the entire time:There was a commotion, something fell and there was puking, the substance of things jerked and then, shaking with effort, someone cowled rose from behind the table. A thin and jaundiced face, deep lines and shaven head, mouth adrip with vomit, staring in horror.Miéville is presumably intentionally vague in describing Qurabin's features, but I find it hard to believe there would be no telltale features at all, if Qurabin's gender was only lost to memory.
She or he stood for moments, quivering as if in ice, then retched and ran across the room to a pillar, behind it and out of sight.
The monk's voice would almost certainly indicate gender over days of travelling, as well, so unless Tekke Vogu deals in more than just knowledge I find the ambiguity a little difficult to swallo---not that it isn't a nice twist. Qurabin's ability to turn invisible does seem to support a conclusion that Tekke Vogu can impart more than just knowledge, but then Qurabin may simply have the knowledge of how to turn invisible while the ability itself is innate.
Food for thought, I suppose!
J. wrote: "Miéville is presumably intentionally vague in describing Qurabin's features, but I find it hard to believe there would be no telltale features at all, if Qurabin's gender was only lost to memory. "Yes, I am familiar with the few seconds that the monk fell out vomiting, wearing a cowl and with a shaven head--they saw the monk barely a few moments, if you reread the section carefully.
J., I guess you need to get out and about more in cities like London where CM lives, and in cities I've been around in. I frequently come across people whose gender I cannot fathom, and if I'm curious about their gender, I aim for chest level to try and determine whether it is a male or a female we're talking about. In fact, I lost 5 bucks to my son on Sunday while we were having lunch in a little cafe next to the pool where he was swimming his gala. There had been a person sitting there typing the whole morning on their laptop, dressed in nondescript khaki shirt and pants whom I had assumed was a woman, but my children bet me it was a man.
In the end, after much clue-seeking, I had to admit that they were right, and that the overall evidence pointed to it being a male.
..but one cannot always judge by breasts alone, since men do get man-boobies, and some women are just flat. *shrug* Neither can you by voice, especially with older people, since I've heard many older women (and smokers especially) sound pretty much exactly like a man.
From the clues given, the monk isn't very young. So to me it is entirely plausible that even if hshe had been completely visible and within touching distance, such a cowled shape could appear to be of indeterminate gender. According to the text the monk still has their original genitals, but hshe just cannot see them.
I guess CM was making one more attempt not only to transcend gender, but to force us to reconsider our preconceptions and the stereotypes we don't even realize that we're holding on to. It looks like he might be catching some of his readers who might cling too tightly to needing gender stereotypes?
If I sometimes cannot figure out someone's gender in weeks of knowing them, (the name of course is a clue, but unisex names like Chris or Aubrey or Ashley have caught me before) it doesn't quite follow for me that Judah's little group, in a fast-moving situation with lots of action going on should in a few seconds of spotting a cowled figure with a shaven head, be able to determine gender, especially a person who themself has no inkling of their own gender.
Nor should it be necessary to know the gender of a person, unless you are planning to have sex with them and you're very strongly ensconced in your orientation. (I'm reminded of the film The Crying Game ). And I think this is the main point that Mieville is putting across.
We should not be so inured to our need for gender stereotypes that we need to put humanity in either a pink box or a blue box. I vote for multicoloured rainbow boxes.
You know, the more time goes on, the more credit I feel I should have given The Scar, because Mièville does a pretty important thing. He forces us out of our comfort zones and forces us to reconsider things we had previously taken for granted.I'm guessing, J, that just like aspects of The Scar pushed me out of my comfort zone, this part of Iron Council seems (judging by your comments) to be doing a similar thing for you.
It's the kind of literature that enlarges one's horizons and makes you re-examine your paradigms, that is for me, the really valuable stuff.
I've found that Miéville's writing in general provides much material for self-examination, though comfort and preconceptions are not really the same thing. This is a very enriching experience, anyway!
J. wrote: "I've found that Miéville's writing in general provides much material for self-examination, though comfort and preconceptions are not really the same thing. This is a very enriching experience, an..."
Good, J! Glad to hear that. :))
By "comfort zone" I meant that area in one's world-paradigm or model of the world where all our assumptions about the world that we feel comfortable about reside.
For instance, if we are used to women wearing long hair and dresses and men wearing beards and short hair and shirts and trousers, and we then see a man with a beard and short hair wearing a dress and high heels, that will push most of us out of our comfort zone where our preconceptions that men don't (or should not) wear dresses and high heels used to reside.
Preconceptions tend to go hand in hand with stereotypes, and they do make us feel more comfortable. We all have them and we all hold stereotypes, because it is our way of ordering the world, based on previous experience.
For instance, most of us hold a presupposition that if you hold out a tennis ball at shoulder length, and you let go of it, it will fall towards the earth, and bounce off a hard surface. You don't actually know in advance that this will happen, you simply assume that it will based on your previous experiences in this regard, and on what you know about gravity and elasticity and so on.
Good Grief! Too many new animals and creatures, China, slow down! He's introducing weird new creatures at such a rate, that by the time we get to the stiltspears, I feel a bit punch-drunk.That could also just be me, though. :P
No, it's not just you. I'm sure many people are drunk right now. ;)In seriousness, Miéville doesn't seem to want to give the reader time to focus too closely on anything which is outside New Crobuzon. If I were to guess I'd trust that this is simply because the details are unimportant, but a skeptic might believe he's being lazy in not fleshing things out. :P
The narrative does seem chronically compressed. Am I imagining that?
Oops, I see Anamnesis: The perpetual Train is very long : Instead of doing the next thread for Part 4 of the book, I think we should make a separate thread for this very very long chapter... Yes, it's incredibly long, so let's not discuss it here, but rather in the next thread.
Please disregard my mention of stiltspears until we get to the next thread.
Apologies for that, at least we caught it in time. :P
Traveller wrote: "J. wrote: "Miéville is presumably intentionally vague in describing Qurabin's features, but I find it hard to believe there would be no telltale features at all, if Qurabin's gender was only lost t..."Thank you, Traveller. I was trying to put these thoughts into words, and found you had already written them. Androgyne is more evident these days and I remind myself I don't have to nudge the one next to me to ask if that person over there is male or female. If it is important to that person for me to know, s/he would have make it clear. I don't need to know. Perhaps it is none of my busness...
I've been gone for a long while, trapped in Anamnesis.Traveller wrote: "I can't help feeling for poor Cutter in his longing for Judah. I can't help partly feeling not only a sexual attraction here, but also a yearning for a father figure."
I think so. It's easy to see Judah as being cold and manipulating, but I don't think that's really the case. But remind me to talk about that more in the next section—anything I can say here would be a spoiler.
J. wrote: "Was the monk's gender in fact taken away, or just the memory thereof as the story told suggests?"I believe it was taken away, but I doubt it matters. It's interesting that Traveller suggests that living in a city like London would show you that you can't always tell. I'd say that living in the wilds, travelling day after day and wearing the same clothes for far too long, it gets even harder (except that Cutter comments "The men’s beards were long, their shag tied back with leather: only Drogon defied this, shaving dry every few days.") Nowhere, though, do we seem to ever be told that they see Qurabin again. It's always "Qurabin's voice…"
Traveller wrote: "Nor should it be necessary to know the gender of a person, unless you are planning to have sex with them and you're very strongly ensconced in your orientation. (I'm reminded of the film The Crying Game ). And I think this is the main point that Mieville is putting across. "
I'm sure we had this discussion once before, Traveller! At least, I know I've had a discussion like this with someone on GR.
Yes, I agree that in part Miéville is deliberately vague about much of what we see outside New Crobuzon, because—even in Anamnesis—New Crobuzon is central to the story, but also because (a) he has to convince the reader that the wilds really are wild, beyond anything most of us can imagine on our own, and (b) he has no intention of becoming Robert Jordan or George R.R. Martin.
I love the wineherds and the vinhogs. Grapevines growing on pork seem just perfect to me (perhaps not so much if one is of a religion in which pigs are unclean…)."the culling of the vinhog bull prime, to let bull secundus, whose fruit was drier and better, stud." Fascinating stuff. Grape-vine propagation is rarely done sexually (I would bet there are no more than a dozen farms in North America doing it, and it's more common here than in Europe), so it casts the whole agriculture in a vastly different light.
Ruth wrote: "Traveller wrote: "J. wrote: "Miéville is presumably intentionally vague in describing Qurabin's features, but I find it hard to believe there would be no telltale features at all, if Qurabin's gend..."That's a good point, Ruth, that people put out exactly the signals that they want people to pick up. If they wanted to put out a girly girl or a manly man signal, they would have. If we have trouble picking up the overt gender, perhaps it is because that person is indeed not buying in to the traditional stereotypes.
In any case, maybe we should indeed stop and ask ourselves why it is so important for us to "know".
Isn't it in fact because it puts us more at ease, because we are in familiar territory when people act according to 'traditional' roles?
Derek wrote: "I've been gone for a long while, trapped in Anamnesis.
Traveller wrote: "I can't help feeling for poor Cutter in his longing for Judah. I can't help partly feeling not only a sexual attraction her..."
Yes, the next section is very long, isn't it? I haven't quite finished it, but if you have, please feel welcome to post in the next thread, Derek. It's here http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Already there...
Derek wrote: "J. wrote: "Was the monk's gender in fact taken away, or just the memory thereof as the story told suggests?"I believe it was taken away, but I doubt it matters. It's interesting that Traveller su..."
Hmm, actually I don't think that conversation was with me, Derek, but anyway, back to what you see in different cities: Yes, I think in very cosmopolitan cities like New York and London, where there is a mish-mash of cultures and people therefore are sort of forced to 1) be accepting of different cultures and therefore notice less if someone is "different", and also of course 2) people come and go a lot and also live right next to one another without knowing one another, you will also find a larger variety in gender expression.
I think in more homogenous cities, you will find people are more conforming and rather more inhibited about how they express themselves through manner and dress. Just a personal observation. :)
Of course, certain cultures are also more forgiving of variety and others less forgiving of non-conformity.
Traveller wrote: "J. wrote: "Miéville is presumably intentionally vague in describing Qurabin's features, but I find it hard to believe there would be no telltale features at all, if Qurabin's gender was only lost t..."Just a little aside here,when I first read PSS I had never heard of CM and in fact assumed that China must be a woman. But it didnt disturb me to find out otherwise.
The more you look around, the more amorphous the sexual definitions. Androgyny rules! Gender is incedental!I will love you for your brilliance and your tenderness,not your gender assignment~
Yay, Magdelanye!! How many generations before we find ourselves there?
now is as good a time as any
Amen.
Amen indeed. So many great things said already! Wish I had been able to follow along with everyone. My initial thoughts about the second half if the flight, so to speak, are that I enjoyed it better but was a little more annoyed. Now that I'm past the giant "gospel of Judah" I'm thinking I will understand more of what happened in these first chapters but at the time it seemed to keep flipping between potential plot points - extremely well-described and intense ones though - with little hint at why we were seeing them. Observations:
I realize Perdido Street Station had many scenes of love and lust, but the masturbatory scene here shocked me slightly. It seemed pointless at first, even though I knew CM was painting Cutter's character and in part Judah's. Again love that self-discovery he lets us readers have. But I admit I struggled with the sex. I'm in no way a prude. Just couldn't make it fit in with the plot. Until I thought about Lin and Isaac and realized the opening scene of PSS, and wondered why that didn't shock me. No difference in interspecies and inter-gender relations right?
Maybe the challenge for me, despite my understanding and acceptance and friends of all persuasions, and my inner hippy, is to find that hidden inner part of me that might still be a little misunderstanding of homosexuality or transgender, etc., and excise it. (I thought this especially after the scene where Susullil laughed, like he was saying to Cutter, "that's not the point.") China's fond of finding those deep down challenges. Then again, maybe true acceptance is knowing what we like and don't like in ourselves, or about ourselves, and learning to live with what we can't change. To smile like Judah. And, of course, we should stitch Magdelanye's admonition into our lives, that "gender is incidental, I will love you for your brilliance and your tenderness, not your gender assignment." Love that!
The other thing, though, is that Cutter seems disgusted with himself, when he says: "good insurrectionists did not blame victims for being distorted by a sick society." Is that why Judah smiles? That Cutter still doesn't get it? That insurrection is being true to yourself and not letting yourself become a sheep of society? That a freethinking society should never have to feel distorted? Intriguing.
The fight, too, with another twistedly inspired imagination-busting creature, I wasn't sure why I was reading it outside of a reason for the monk to come along with the fellowship of Cutter (anybody else get a Tolkien-slash-Zane Grey feel here?), but it was still cool. Maybe the western genre thing again.
Much has been said of the monk. And I've loved reading all of it. He and or she is fascinating, but I must admit I didn't think much about the hidden gender part. Mostly I was just fascinated with the monk's religion. And would like to meet the other ones. But given what I've read of the perpetual train now, I can see how the character will fit into the plot. I think.
And like Derek, loved the vin hogs. Brilliantly distracting. And I'm not even a wine drinker. I guess animals with barley and hops growing on their backs would've been too weird. :)
I'm glad you mentioned the monk again, Allen, because I think we sort of got stuck on the gender in this thread, and never got to the other aspect of the monk, an aspect that becomes all the more important and more obvious later on, namely the monks' constant sacrifices when he/she is getting info from wherever that place is that he/she is getting their info from. I'd actually like to make mention of this in a later thread again, where it becomes very pertinent.Regarding the masturbation: funny, but for me again, the interhuman/bug sex actually appeared weirder. I've been pretty curious about different modes of human sex and I've googled gay sex on the internet--there are many vids to be viewed for free out there, and so, of course, gay sex in its various forms doesn't seem half as strange to me as a human and a half-bug. (I never could bring myself to google bestiality, although I had once or twice in my life accidentally walked in on vids of bestiality. Bad enough as that was, none of them were with large bugs, so nothing could prepare me for Lin's bug-head; much as I grew to love the character of Lin. :P
It's funny, the weirder didn't bother me, and I actually talked about this with my wife today (she hasn't read any of these works) but she thinks I liked the Lin Isaac connection because it set the stage of the fantasy. Plus it's something exotic, which while I know this isn't a confessional, is kind if a fetish of sorts. Still I was wondering if there was something deeper in myself that was surfacing. We've always both embraced that "gender is irrelevant" philosophy so it was kind of troubling. She assures me if I'm able to debate it, in relation to plots, etc., and am willing to examine the issue then I'm fine. She said if I truly understood homosexuality then I would be gay, and I guess she has a point :) so now, yeah, I'm thinking I understand Judah better, at least partially. You can't understand everything around you but you can throw off what you've been conditioned to believe and understand yourself. It's zen. You've intrigued me about the monk. Can't wait.
An incident that occured long ago helped me to be able to see Lin as cute.I was in the middle east,in a deserted pavillion,with some friends,smoking hashish. When the bugs arrived,instead of shooing them away, we noticed how elegant their dance. They were in fact involved in a courtship ritual and as we watched a rival zoomed in and interupted the ecstactic couple; The female backed off and left her two suiters to battle it out. I quite clearly distinguished on her tiny triangular face a variety of emotions as she waited for the outcome.
This incident really helped me get rid of my fear of bugs as alens,and reinforced my theory that before science explained them away,classifying them as insects;there were faeries....
That's simple amazing ... I sometimes think our greatest challenge as earthlings is or will be to overcome our desire to constantly label. Or as you say classify. We would be better off without. I had more to say on labels but your anecdote makes it moot.
... Wow.
Fantastic story, Magdelanye Thank you for sharing!
Fantastic in more ways than one! Enchanting tale, Magdelanye. One bug I have always loved, has been ladybugs (I guess everyone loves them ).Trust hashish to give a different perspective. (Sadly, the few times I've tried it myself, it seemed to do nothing for me).
You know, I have long felt great sympathy with Arthur Conan Doyle, and I actually own that book re the Cottingdale fairies, but never really felt an urge to read it. Now, I suddenly feel inspired to read it.
Allen wrote: "It's funny, the weirder didn't bother me, and I actually talked about this with my wife today (she hasn't read any of these works) but she thinks I liked the Lin Isaac connection because it set the..."CM does seem prone to exploring fetishes. He does a different one again in The Scar.(Though in The Scar not with the same proximity and detail). Have you read it?
Yeah, ladybugs are cool, except the ones that bite, usually only when they're mating, so I guess they can be forgiven.Good to know I am not alone. Tried the waterpipe thing a couple of time, so? Was something supposed to happen...?
Ack, they can? I don't know if I'm glad or sad that you told me that... The grass? No, I never tried it with that waterpipe thing- my contacts who were able to get it, was through an art class that I did, and the guy rolled it into sort of cigarettes. The rest of the class who smoked it, appeared to feel an effect, but I didn't -- maybe it had an effect but I just didn't notice it? They said I'd feel it better if I ate it, so I tried that too, and still didn't feel anything untoward as far as any kind of "hallucinogenic" effect was concerned.
The world still looked like it had before I ate it. Oh well. I guess my own imagination tends to make up for what the effect of grass on me lacks. :D
Traveller wrote: "Ack, they can? I don't know if I'm glad or sad that you told me that... The grass? No, I never tried it with that waterpipe thing- my contacts who were able to get it, was through an art class ..."
LOL
Alan wrote: "And like Derek, loved the vin hogs. Brilliantly distracting. And I'm not even a wine drinker. I guess animals with barley and hops growing on their backs would've been too weird. :) Not to me!
All cannabis does for me is put me to sleep (and I wake up hungry, of course).
Well, it is possible that it makes me feel sleepy. ..but I mean, here I was expecting these sensory distortions, and I never noticed any...I must confess here, that I smoked cigarellos and cigarettes at the time as well, (something I regret now), and tobacco would give me a very distinct shift in consciousness. (A definite high, along with a focusing of the mind). So, I don't know, maybe I was expecting something similarly marked from the cannabis, instead of something subtle?
Maybe it dépends on the circumstances plus a few other variables, My thought is that drugs are just catalysts;Ruth and Trav maybe already have Evolved past the need for a little lift now and then
I'm with Derek ... Gimme a beer (or three) and I'll debate science and philosophy and religion all night - even if I have no idea about the basic tenets of a topic - and will end up my mind opened. And happy. Tried marijuana once, and fell asleep. Tobacco is destructive. I went through that phase once. For me it is extremely addicting and was hard to break. Not doing it again.
I am grateful and proud to report that I am finally completely over my tobacco addiction. It does indeed have frightful addictive powers.So, Mags, apparently I am not above liking to get 'high' though I admit that I simply dislike the feeling alcohol gives me; (the loss of control mostly) which might explain part of why cannabis didn't do it for me. I guess I'm not too sad about that, because I fear all addiction, and all agents which have potential addictive powers.
I don't know how addictive grass is though--many people seem able to take it or leave it?
A friend (in her late 60s) has recently quit smoking, and I (only half-joking) told her that the first 10 years were the hardest. She's past the three month mark now, and confessed last week that she never imagined it would still be so hard. Honestly, for ten years I could tell you from the top of my head how many years, months, days and even hours it had been since my last cigarette.
Yes, its scary. I know I was a bit addicted to alcohol and to coffee before my first pregnancy, but it was easy to go cold turkey on coffee and alcohol. I didn't smoke during my pregnancy, but it took at least three or four years for the cravings to go away, especially during stressful times.Bearing in mind how hard it is to kick the habit, there really should be stricter legislation re tobacco. I cringe when I see school children smoking. :(( (Which they do despite legislation of no tobacco sold to under 18s) :(
Has anyone figured out with a githwing is? It is mentioned at the beginning of Chapter 11 in "Cougars and githwings eyed them from the low hills or the air"Okay, so 1. some sort of flying animal; 2. the word is found in old Saxon meaning 'force'.
Anyone have anything else on this critter?
Since the discussion is already moving on to here with some participants, I'm going to start a thread for it already, though I'd prefer to wait a bit for the others.
One of the things that will probably remain with me from this chapter, is the little scene between Cutter and Judah, where Judah is crying and Cutter is aching to reach out to him.
I know I shouldn't be labelling, (as in "gay scene") so do pardon me for mentioning that this scene instantly reminded me of a very similar scene that I had read in The Razor's Edge by Somerset Maugham many years ago. So long ago, that I'd forgotten what the book was about, but I remember how poignant I had found that scene, of unrequited longing, as I found the scene between Cutter and Judah to be.
I think part of what gave me a sudden ache, was thinking about how I've sometimes wondered how the fact that CM didn't really know his father has affected him.
In any case, I'm opening this thread now already since we've started discussing the war with Tesh, and the tactics that New Crobuzon have been using.
J, the bit I was referring to in an earlier thread, is the part where they discuss why the militia is killing the winemaker tribes.
"This is why the cactacae fought, down south," said Pomeroy after a long silent time. "This is what they heard about. They saw the militia, thought this was what they’d get too."
"Why this? Why this?" said Elsie. She struggled. "Galaggi ain’t Tesh land, it’s wild. These ain’t Tesh tribes."
"No, but it’s Tesh they’re hurting," Judah said. "Galaggi wine and oil goes through it. They aren’t strong enough yet to hit the city, but do this and you hit Tesh in the coffers."