Miévillians discussion
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Iron Council
Bas-lag 3: Iron Council
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IC spoiler thread 2: Chapter 7 to end of Chapter 9
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Iron Council was published in 2003. I wonder how much of the war with Tesh is a criticism of the war against the Falklands and the war against Iraq.
Is it outright stated that thirty years have passed since the events of Perdido Street Station? It's been at least twenty, given that it was supposed to have all happened before Ori was born and Ori is clearly an adult. However, Ori is said to be a young man, too. Did I miss an explicit reference?
J. wrote: "Did I miss an explicit reference? "You didn't read the New Crobuzon article I linked to in the previous thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Crob... ;)
Admittedly, I defer to their superior knowledge, but they were in conversation with the author (to whose superior knowledge of the chronology of the Bas-lag novels I bow).
..but I am sure one could work it out even if CM hadn't said so, which he apparently has--and for that I'm just trusting the internet for once.
Also, there are people out there who have made a very serious study of Bas-lag. :P There's even a game featuring the Bas-lag under development at present. (You'll have to trust me on the latter, I don't have outright proof close at hand, but I'm sure Google will come up with something if you tried).
Oh, good. I feel somewhat less stupid, then!I really liked these chapters, in any case, but it's made me wonder: how temporally removed are the two story threads?
There is an explicit reference, and it's only twenty years. In the puppet show, of the capture of Jack Half-a-prayer—which is the conclusion of Perdido Street Station—"“No one of us'll forget, I'm sure,” the narrator said and he was right, no one could, it was only twenty years ago."
Ah, trust Derek to have caught it. Gee, Derek, I'm pretty darn glad I don't work somewhere with you as my supervisor. :PI'm thinking it is possible that the events in Iron Council do span quite a period of time, though, since events jump back and forth in time, as one sees later on, though I do believe it actually goes back more than forwards.
I haven't read the whole book yet, so I haven't formed a proper chronology yet.
Oh, I'm just sitting here wrapped in a comforter and alternately snivelling and coughing my guts out, with nothing better to do. Plus I'd only just read that paragraph. I had read that wikipedia article, and I guess it says 25 years to the start of Iron Council — which isn't completely out of line with somebody saying "twenty years".
Derek wrote: "Oh, I'm just sitting here wrapped in a comforter and alternately snivelling and coughing my guts out, with nothing better to do. Plus I'd only just read that paragraph. I had read that wikipedia ..."
Aww, got 'flu? Well, I hope you feel better soon!
How do you guys feel about the glamorisation of crime in this part?
Thread 3 is here for those of you who are haring ahead. http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
"End of chapter 10"? I thought we were changing these to fit the natural scene changes.I had a cold (well, still have) but it's passing fast. I'm still a little choked up, but it was really only bad for two days.
I didn't see a "glamorization of crime". I read it as a frustrated young revolutionary being sucked in by a criminal gang in the mistaken belief that what he was doing could change the system rather than reinforce it.
Derek wrote: ""End of chapter 10"? I thought we were changing these to fit the natural scene changes.I had a cold (well, still have) but it's passing fast. I'm still a little choked up, but it was really only ..."
Ack! I apologise! It's been late nights for me... I meant the end of chapter 9, very sorry. It's a good thing I have you to help me, Derek, thanks for reading this with us.:)
I think I've got ahead of myself there. I'll have to go back at lunchtime....
Try not to run into yourself…
I apologise for the confusion with the chapters. I don't have a treebook, so I keep having to refer to the index of the ebook... :PIn any case, I myself am not finished with part 3 yet, but I opened a thread especially for J. so we can discuss the reason for the war with the Cactacae on it, in response to the discussion started in thread 1. I've limited my commentary to the first 2 chapters of Part 3 for now.
I cheated and opened the part 3 thread. :)I did get a DTB out of the library, but I quickly decided I needed an e-book to make it easier to annotate. My Kobo tells me what chapter I'm reading at the bottom of the page (apparently many people don't like that, I guess because it makes the text at least a line shorter, but it works for me).
I'm not finished Part 3, either, but I will comment nonetheless, when I can find a bit of time.
Derek wrote: "I cheated and opened the part 3 thread. :)I did get a DTB out of the library, but I quickly decided I needed an e-book to make it easier to annotate. My Kobo tells me what chapter I'm reading at ..."
Ugh, you cheat! Are you one of those people who peep at the ending of books? My brother used to drive me nuts by peeping at the ending before he got through the body of the book...
I'm not really cheating. I am in part 3.No, I never peek. I just realized today that reading e-books is also resulting in me not even seeing the cover blurbs. I'd noted earlier that I thought we weren't told who Cutter et al were following because it would turn out to be a character from one of the earlier books—then today I discovered that there's a massive spoiler in the blurb.
My wife, who is, in so many ways, completely evil, frequently looks at the back page to see if she wants to finish a book. In her defence, she never reads the blurbs. But also the first thing she'll do with a new book is break the spine so that it will lay flat.
I used to sometimes look at the last sentence of a book, as it was always completely meaningless, and it was something of a game to see how little the very end could relate to the very beginning, until I actually did run into a fairly major spoiler, so I stopped.
Derek wrote: "But also the first thing she'll do with a new book is break the spine so that it will lay flat. "Your wife is an evil book-destroying harpy who should be denied the priviledge of ever again laying hands upon a wood-pulp product. Or at least any of my wood-pulp products...
I'm sure she's a wonderful person at other times, yes? It's just that the texture of paper causes a Hydesque transformation into a twisted creature with no inhibition?
I think both of you better make a note in your diaries or your little black books or whatever, to never allow me near any of your books... 0:-)You'd better not let me meet your wife, Derek, or you might just find yourself being ganged up on. There's nothing more frustrating in the world than a book that won't stay open; another reason why I love me my e-books.
Here's another shocker! I make dog-ears in textbooks and I even write in them! >:D
Oh, when you recover from the shock, I still wanted to ask you guys what you thought of Spiral Jacobs. Is he really mad, do you think, and why? He seems to have played quite an important role around Jack.
Traveller wrote: "Oh, when you recover from the shock, I still wanted to ask you guys what you thought of Spiral Jacobs. Is he really mad, do you think, and why? He seems to have played quite an important role aro..."Ah! Funny you should ask. I had actually meant to say something on that when I responded to your "glamorisation of crime" comment.
I think he is, but I didn't originally, and I reserve the right to change my mind again!
I suspected that it was all a guise for recruiting to Toro's mob, but the large gift at the end of chapter 9 made me decide otherwise. Unless, of course, that's just another con.
Yes, that gift is indeed extremely interesting, isn't it? At the very least, it seems to be in approval of Ori's plan...Did you notice how earthly the denominations are? Another instance of CM being playful?
Oh yes, and I was going to comment on how we see the Construct Council destroyed. Boo, those steam-powered computers were so cute!So the age of computing machines came to an early end, while a new age of golemetrism and thaumaturgy is being ushered in in Iron Council.
I must say that I had enjoyed the Steampunk flavor of Perdido Street Station.
I had too, Traveller! All the nerdy talk of punch cards, analytical and difference engines, mechanical logic and all that jazz was all great fun. It's also interesting that, rather than transitioning from mechanical to electronic principles, the Construct Council seem to veer off into biological computation. It makes sense this would be rootd out, but it's sad for us!
Yeah, I think CM pretty much riffs quite a bit on popular SF themes though, and as you'll remember, artificial AI taking over the world and becoming man's nemesis has been a pretty popular theme in SF.But I also think that CM is a restless soul who likes to explore varied avenues in his fiction.
Well, he sort of nods to the long-standing SF trope, but then he destroys all the AI in a paragraph or two. As if to say, "potentially worrying, but in the end, no big deal."
"Artificial AI", dear Traveller? Don't tell me you're picking up Miéville's flair for redundancy! ;)
J. wrote: ""Artificial AI", dear Traveller? Don't tell me you're picking up Miéville's flair for redundancy! ;)"Before I wrote it, I thought to myself that I shouldn't say that, but then I was in a hurry and it slipped out anyway. You caught me red-handed. :)
Shall we put it in our display case of interesting phrases along with rock tors and true hybrids? :D
Derek wrote: "Well, he sort of nods to the long-standing SF trope, but then he destroys all the AI in a paragraph or two. As if to say, "potentially worrying, but in the end, no big deal.""Yes! Just think, he could have spent half of the book bringing down the Construct Council. This Mièville guy simply has too many ideas rushing through his head at breakneck speed and he wants to give them all a chance, so no dwelling on any particular one of them. Unless they're words of course, like "puissant". :P
Traveller wrote: "I think both of you better make a note in your diaries or your little black books or whatever, to never allow me near any of your books... 0:-)You'd better not let me meet your wife, Derek, or y..."
Ah, the days of writing in and dog-earing textbooks...wonderful times those ;)
Traveller wrote: "Oh, when you recover from the shock, I still wanted to ask you guys what you thought of Spiral Jacobs. Is he really mad, do you think, and why? He seems to have played quite an important role aro..."I think originally he was faking to get out various situations, but now that he practically lives in a mad state it is harder and harder for him to come out to the 'real world'.
Ruth wrote: "Ah, the days of writing in and dog-earing textbooks...wonderful times those ;) "Colour coding the text and writing short summaries aids me greatly in organizing the content in my brain and memorising it.:)
Hold on a minute! I've just had a thought... The Scar takes place quite closely after the events in PSS. We know this, because Bellis is an ex-lover of Isaac's, and she is fleeing NC because of the aftermath of the events in PSS, right?
So, I wonder how closely the war with Tesh is concerned with the events in The Scar?
It was made quite clear in The Scar that New Crobuzon was protecting its trade concerns in what can be seen as pretty hostile ways.
..but let me not jump the gun too much. I'm sure more will be revealed as we read on...
Yeah, The Scar takes place shortly after Perdido Street Station, and they may overlap a little. I had the same thought myself, that the present war might be a follow-on to the hostilities in The Scar. I'd absolutely love to read a timeline of events leading up to Iron Council.
Will get to some of this later as I'm trapped in Anamensis myself ... But must agree with Travel that CM has so much going through his brain at times, wow. For something so hard to beat in PSS we just skip right past the demise of the Construct Council here? Oh well. But I loved Spiral Jacobs. At first I though he was a militia spy. But then I thought maybe he's one of those soldier-driven-mad but still brilliant tropes. Or hiding his brilliance. I think later on we find he's writing secret things in walls for Toro's group. I'm confused by chronology here maybe, but everybody else is probably past this so ...
Allen, watch Spiral Jacobs. He's a weird 'un that. We do find out a bit more about him later on, but I'm staying mum for now not to spoilerize.Anamnesis is a looooong chapter, isn't it? It's a flashback though, so yeah, it happens before the bit where Cutter and co. set out to go and find the Council and Judah. It's basically the background to Judah and The Council.
I found myself having a soft spot for Spiral Jacobs when we first meet him. He's a kind old mind who, though addled, still fights the good fight in his own way. He was very well protrayed, I thought.
Fights the good fight ... It's dawning on me that I liking this book because of the glimpse it gives into insurrection and revolution. I'm reminded of the Lone Ranger, the Black Panthers (Russian revolution?) and I'm sure countless other fiction or nonfiction parallels. My personal favorite is the time period from Les Mis. I admit I'm not the most political person and cannot readily debate world philosophies but I kept trying to imagine who was Marius, Enjolras, Gavroche and the other revolutionaries. Then that opened up a whole debate in my head if who was Valjean and Javert :)Anyway, if I were reviewing it, I would say it's a truly fascinating glimpse into the seeds of revolution - a weird fiction gospel of moments and how characters reach then overcome society-imposed rules.
Also made me realize I should have paid more attention to the Runagate Rampant parts in PSS. Speaking of which, you've got to read "Runagate Runagate" ... Surely China has. It's a poem by Robert Hayden from the 1960s, about slavery, even mentions trains! Hope this works ... http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/...
Runagate is also mentioned in both the Bible and Pilgrim's Progress...
Oh man, but I love these group discussions! They are so so so enriching!Thank you for those references and the poem link, Allen, wonderful!
Have you met Anne Hari in the book yet? I wonder if she is some kind of Harriet Tubman (mentioned in the poem)? Per Wikipedia, Tubman was an African-American abolitionist, humanitarian, and Union spy during the American Civil War.
Born into slavery, Tubman escaped and subsequently made more than nineteen missions to rescue more than 300 slaves[1] using the network of antislavery activists and safe houses known as the Underground Railroad. She later helped John Brown recruit men for his raid on Harpers Ferry, and in the post-war era struggled for women's suffrage.
..and note the railroad that I bolded there! As you get farther on with the book, you'll understand my excitement re those references better, Allen! (Or you may already if you're close to finished with Anamnesis)
Allen wrote: "Runagate is also mentioned in both the Bible and Pilgrim's Progress... "Wow. I did know of those, but not the poem. Given the importance of slavery in New Crobuzon it adds yet another facet to an already hugely complex series.
Truly the luck of Google. I had a feeling Runagate was being used for a reason beyond its definition, so I searched it and one of the first results was the poem so I though what the heck ... Turned out very interesting indeed!And yes, Traveler, this is why I love these group discussions too! Never would have gotten this deeply into these books - or be pushed into research - without you all. :)
...so this thread will be about Ori's adventures back in New Crobuzon only -up to the end of Part 2 in the book.
It is 30 years later than the events in PSS, and this part does take place in New Crobuzon.
We hear talk of the 'Caucus', which are basically all of the government groups like Runagate Rampant (doubleR) and Toro's gang.
The war with Tesh has impoverished New Crobuzon, and this has caused a lot of unrest. A lot of it feels like Victorian London, what with its soup kitchens and the like.
I'm not quite sure what the object of Toro's gang is, what positive force crime is supposed to be exerting on society, but ostensibly it is supposed to be a protest against the rich in this context, I take it.
..but then, our crime boss Motley (whom we met in PSS), is also rich, not so? Just sayin'...
This part is very political and almost lost me in all of its politics. It was actually refreshing to join Cutter and co. again in Part 3.