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The Self Editing Process
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I know one thing for sure about self-editing, you can do all the editing you want to it but it's always going to need another set of eyes to fix what you missed. We tend to not notice some of our own mistakes no matter how many times we go over our work. Editing is crucial and needs to be taken seriously.
My novels go through at least 50 drafts -- sometimes more. Painful, but on each pass I figure out ways to link ch 2 to ch 8, foreshadow, follow through on something I've set up, and in general flesh out and improve things along the way.
I HATE editing. I can never see past the small things to make sure the big stuff is sorted first. I have to send my first drafts to my beta readers so that they can highlight the big issues for me. And usually I'll spot other stuff in the process of going through their notes, but I need someone else to up the editing scaffolding, as it were.
Justin wrote: "I know one thing for sure about self-editing, you can do all the editing you want to it but it's always going to need another set of eyes to fix what you missed. We tend to not notice some of our o..."I agree with you Justin, that's why I said that I use self-editing as the pre-production phase before beta reading and professional editing. It is a quality control process I use in addition to hiring a professional editor, not as a substitute for an editor.
Does that make sense?
Have fun.
Gamal
Nancy wrote: "My novels go through at least 50 drafts -- sometimes more. Painful, but on each pass I figure out ways to link ch 2 to ch 8, foreshadow, follow through on something I've set up, and in general fles..."How long does it take you to go through 50 drafts after the manuscript is finished Nancy?
Mhairi wrote: "I HATE editing. I can never see past the small things to make sure the big stuff is sorted first. I have to send my first drafts to my beta readers so that they can highlight the big issues for me...."Thank you for the input.
Do you prefer to have your professional editor handle all the editing, or do you take a swing at editing after the beta readers give you feedback?
Thanks Gamal, I enjoyed that post. I had never considered reading aloud, but I'll give it a try. I also have taken some tips from Stephen King, and I find I'm enjoying editing a lot more than I used to. His suggestion of reducing the first draft by 10% is a good one for me. What I find satisfying is printing out the draft, marking it up in red ink, and then shredding it when I'm done. I think this keeps me on task, and my progress is visual.
Of course, any author should go through their work several times before passing it along to a professional editor. Editors are there to clean up your work, see what needs work and makes notes, they're not co-authors that are going to take your first draft and turn it into something publishable. That said, having the script looked over by a professional editor AND a proofreader (they are NOT the same) is an indispensable step in getting your work ready for public consumption. No matter how many times you go through your own work, there are things you're going to miss, as you're going to see things as you meant to write them and not as they need to be.
I also like printing my work out and going through it physically. Only problems with that are getting yelled at for going through an ink cartridge at a time and having things move around as you go through and transfer changes to the computer files. I have found though the second problem is alleviated if you work from last to first.
Yes, I'm an editor and I second getting the work as far as you can before you pass it to a professional. However, of course, if you are stuck and the process is simply taking too long you can call in help sooner. I provide 'reader reports' to help guide revision for manuscripts where the work isn't ready to be edited. And sometimes I simply talk a writer through an area they're stuck with, or make suggestions for bespoke exercises - something fun that gets them thinking about their manuscript in a new way and doesn't make the process feel too arduous. I've compiled these exercises on revision into the e-book '52 Dates for Writers', which has been getting good feedback: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00D9NRF8U
Melanie wrote: "Thanks Gamal, I enjoyed that post. I had never considered reading aloud, but I'll give it a try. I also have taken some tips from Stephen King, and I find I'm enjoying editing a lot more than I use..."I'd love to print my manuscript out, but I live in a tiny New York apartment. I don't have space for the printer or the paper required to print all those drafts. I actually write most of my novels on my cellphone. I edit on my laptop, but only because I haven't found a good app on my phone that will let me edit on the go. :p
Thanks for the input.
Shaun wrote: "Of course, any author should go through their work several times before passing it along to a professional editor. Editors are there to clean up your work, see what needs work and makes notes, they..."I have two business questions for you Shaun; 1) how much do you pay for your editor and your proofreader 2) how many copies of your book do you need to sell to cover that cost?
I'm not asking because I think your approach is wrong, I'm just trying to plug the cost of a proofreader into my P&L to see how it affects the economics of each release.
Thanks.
Gamal
Claire wrote: "Yes, I'm an editor and I second getting the work as far as you can before you pass it to a professional. However, of course, if you are stuck and the process is simply taking too long you can call ..."Thanks for the information Claire. What kind of books do you edit? Do you specialize in one particular genre?
I'm happy to answer your questions Gamal. 1. As far as the cost of editors, it ranges from a couple hundred to a couple thousand depending on if the particular editor does a flat fee or a per-word price. And, in my experience, you generally get what you pay for. I think the editing on my first book came to about $350, with no proofreader. Unfortunately, that book is now going back to a different editor after some changes and is looking at an additional 4 - 500. My second book was just under $600, including a proofreader, which was only an extra $40 after all editing was done.
2. To make back editing costs on the first book is going to take some number crunching between the additional editing and price changes, but for the second book, I only need to sell 300 copies or so.
That is still a lot of money to find, and from what I hear that is a pretty reasonable fee.I am after people who have self-edited successfully to interview on my blog. I am going to interview some editors so it would be a good contrast.
Not everyone can afford a professional editor (me included) and tips on how to self-edit would be useful.
Anyone who wants to chat about it please email me at libraryoferana@yahoo.co.uk
Hi Gamal, I work on a huge variety of books - from non-fiction, to children's picture books, to literary or mass-market fiction. For example, one of the writers I'm currently mentoring is a memoir writer, I've just finished work on a non-fiction book of meditation, and up next is a contemporary novel set in a Belfast squat. It's an interesting and varied job! You can see more at www.clairewingfield.co.uk. I do agree that it can be hard to weigh up the costs for a self-publisher (I work for traditional publishing houses also, and they can ensure a book goes through several round of editing, and then proofreading, as needed, but of course it's very difficult for a self-publisher to do this.) I'm always conscious of a writer's budget, and some different things I do to try to help: 1) I try to make sure a writer learns something about editing from the process, so they can minimize costs in future - by giving notes on what I've done, explaining points of grammar or professional layout etc. 2) If a budget is quite small, it is possible just to get e.g. the first 3 chapters edited with notes, so the writer can tackle recurring issues themselves if they feel able to. 3) I try to support my writers after publication, and give them help on promotion where I can. So I can help them make sure their book description is search engine optimised, and they have a marketing strategy in place. 4) My book '52 Dates for Writers' has a detailed section on editing, with examples from manuscripts I have worked on. http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00D9NRF8U
Gamal,You writing your books on your cell phone is truly amazing. I take it you have the latest high tech iPhone? If not even more amazing. Just goes to show you anything is possible and how cell phones are impacting our lives. That's article worthy to share!
Definitely. I wonder how many people manage to do this? Once or twice I've made notes for a book on my phone while out and about, but I'd never think of getting a draft on there. Intriguing...
Claire wrote: "Definitely. I wonder how many people manage to do this? Once or twice I've made notes for a book on my phone while out and about, but I'd never think of getting a draft on there. Intriguing..."Like most developments, writing on my phone is a product of necessity. I work 12 hours a day at a job that doesn't give me the ability to bring my laptop to work or do outside work on their computers. Since I can upload note from my phone directly to the cloud, I just write one note per chapter and then integrate it into the manuscript when I get home at night.
It's not the most productive system. The most I've ever written in one day this way is 1,500 words but it adds up over a period of weeks or months. I write my blog posts, my plots and my actual books this way. I don't think I could have the same output if I waited to get home at night.
Justin wrote: "Gamal,You writing your books on your cell phone is truly amazing. I take it you have the latest high tech iPhone? If not even more amazing. Just goes to show you anything is possible and how cell ..."
Thanks Justin. Relatively speaking, my phone isn't high tech. It's just a Galaxy S3. I do use an app called Evernote that makes writing on the phone pretty easy. I've been thinking about writing an article about the technological tools available to writers now. Maybe it's time for me to write that one.
Thanks for the idea...
Shaun wrote: "I'm happy to answer your questions Gamal. 1. As far as the cost of editors, it ranges from a couple hundred to a couple thousand depending on if the particular editor does a flat fee or a per-wor..."
Those numbers don't sound too bad. With the Kindle royalties from a $2.99 book, you only need to sell 20 books to cover the cost of the proofreader. I would probably have to take that cash from my social media budget, but I don't know how effective my social media dollars are anyway.
Did you find your proofreader on GR?
Thanks.
Gamal
A.L. wrote: "That is still a lot of money to find, and from what I hear that is a pretty reasonable fee.I am after people who have self-edited successfully to interview on my blog. I am going to interview som..."
I'd be willing to discuss my self editing on your show. Please let me know if you'd like to set something up.
Have fun.
Gamal
I find self-editing kills two birds with one stone. I never rewrite my manuscripts as a rule, I have far too many in progress without going back and rehashing completed works. However, when asked by a publisher to go back and check for typos, many times I will also tweak up spots here and there that could have been enhanced by a phrase here or an adjective there.
I don't mind editing my own work. In fact, I think I need to do it, to improve the flow, clarify the confusing, and get rid of a lot of dreck that goes in there when the brain is creating and the fingers are flying over the keyboard.That being said, I will agree with all who said that editing needs to be done with more than one set of eyes. I can edit my work ten times, and STILL find things that need to be fixed. The problem is that when you are self-editing, you tend to read what you THOUGHT you wrote, rather than what is actually there in the document.
The deeper you get into a story, the pages of past drafts piling up, the closer you come to understanding what the story is really about & what the story does & doesn't need. You cut, change, tinker, add back in, until hopefully the thing is smarter than you...
The thing that gets me is when you miss something when you self edit and its so dumb of a mistake that when someone points it out to you, you now think they think you can't write. All over some minor error your own eyes failed to see hundreds of times.
Here is the first of the editor interviews on my blog. They talk about self-editing too. http://libraryoferana.wordpress.com/2...
One suggestion for self-editing that I don't see on this thread is one that I've found useful on more than one occasion. The biggest problem in self-editing is that you become absorbed by the story, even though you know what's coming, and tend to miss things (maybe because you do know what's coming). So ... print out your manuscript, go to the top of a stairway and start throwing the ms down the stairwell a page or two at a time. Then, pick up the pages in random order and edit it one page at a time. This forces you to look at each page and you don't get absorbed by the story because it is so disjointed now. When done, put it all back in order and then make the changes in your electronic file. BTW, the process of throwing it down the stairs can be quite cathartic as well. lol
Justin wrote: "The thing that gets me is when you miss something when you self edit and its so dumb of a mistake that when someone points it out to you, you now think they think you can't write. All over some min..."Most professionals know that writer's can't edit their own manuscripts perfectly. If they could, editors would be out of a job. Don't worry. If Stephen King needs an editor no one will think less of you if you need one too. ;-)
Justin wrote: "I know one thing for sure about self-editing, you can do all the editing you want to it but it's always going to need another set of eyes to fix what you missed. We tend to not notice some of our o..."I agree with Justin, you can only take your work so far before your brain omits seeing errors that fresh eyes of one or two others will see right in front of them. Even big league writers, best selling books you will always find one or two mistakes, but people don't blame the author they blame the editors. Yet with self publishing there is a less forgiving audience almost like they are looking for the mistakes unless you can blow them away with the story that they don't dwell on the issue. I always recommend you have someone else go over the book even after you have had editing done, I had 3 revisions rounds of errors found even with the editing completed. When my book was published I found a few more. It makes you feel stupid but look at the bigger picture of what you have accomplished and that is no small thing.
Mark wrote: "Justin wrote: "I know one thing for sure about self-editing, you can do all the editing you want to it but it's always going to need another set of eyes to fix what you missed. We tend to not notic..."I know exactly what you mean Mark. That's why I self edit before sending it to beta readers and then sending it to a professional editor. The three level quality control process still doesn't eliminate all the errors, but the finished product comes out a lot better.
Thanks.
Gamal
One suggestion is to record several chapters of your book at a time and then get somewhere quiet and listen to them. In this way, you're evaluating the story with a total different sense. Having to listen to your story forces you to see how easy it is--or isn't--to experience the story as your ears hear it. You may want to have a notepad or something close by.
If anything, your self-editing to pick up little mistakes that are clearly obvious such as words spelt wrong or wrong words used. It's the double use of words, small similar words that get written and commas and all that good stuff that tend to go unnoticed by our own eyes. You basically serve as a quick spell checker for your own work then you recruit the big guns to go over the rest.
http://bit.ly/1eYmLfk
Enjoy
Gamal