Monthly Group Reads: OCTOBER 2013 (Group Read 1) Pride of Carthage by David Anthony Durham

[[deleted user]]

Yeah...I like older settings too. So far, I haven't been a big fan of hist fic set in the U.S.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Darcy wrote: "Derek may not be interested, but I've added them to my TBR...as if I needed another book."

sucker...;)

[[deleted user]]

Darcy wrote: "Derek may not be interested, but I've added them to my TBR...as if I needed another book."

Hey...I added Walk Through Darkness. :)

[Darcy]

*hangs head in shame*

[Jean-luc]

Really like the book so far. Interesting to see the story from various point of view - from Hannibal and his brothers all the way to lowliest of soldiers. And to see the Punic Wars from Carthage point of view is a nice change. The crossing of the Alps must have been quite horrific although the author doesn't dwell too long on that part.

[Troy]

I've just finished the book and I think it's going to take a couple of days to digest before I can write a proper review. My thoughts so far- I liked it a lot. It's not really such a griping page turner but you do feel that you've read something profound or achieved something as you make progress through this book.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Troy wrote: "It's not really such a griping page turner but you do feel that you've read something profound or achieved something as you make progress through this book. ..."

Exactly how I felt. That's why I always wanted to give it 5 stars, but in the end I stuck with 4 stars. I dropped a star for the tangents I spoke of earlier in the thread.
The book would be great for me and then the author would wander off into a characters mind and as a story, that messed with the progress, for me....others experiences are different.

[Justin]

Troy wrote: "I've just finished the book and I think it's going to take a couple of days to digest before I can write a proper review. My thoughts so far- I liked it a lot. It's not really such a griping page t..."

Same experience here, though I haven't finished yet. So far it's a solid 4, possibly a 5.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Oh for the luxury of a half star. I would have given it 4 1/2 for sure.

[[deleted user]]

Troy wrote: "I've just finished the book and I think it's going to take a couple of days to digest before I can write a proper review. My thoughts so far- I liked it a lot. It's not really such a griping page t..."

Well said, Troy. I'm only about half way through, but that's exactly how I feel about it so far.

[Bryn]

I had a slight dissatisfaction to do with skimpiness... times it didn't seem to go as deep as usual, eg towards the end... Nothing else though for me. :)

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

My issue. The tangents. I wasn't going to say where it bothered me until people started finishing, but I can't resist.

Maybe a spoiler. Not plot or anything. Just don't want to rub my negativity off on anybody else. :)

(view spoiler)[
My problem with the book stems from Hannibal's inner musings in his tent on the trek over the Alps to battle.
In my review I mention feeling like the author had run with his thoughts too much and it interrupted the flow of the story for me.

I wish he had made some of those self indulgent tangents a wee bit shorter.

It is only a small criticism. It was enough to make me give it 4 instead of 5 though. (hide spoiler)]

[Lia]

The lack of chapters really take a toll on my reading speed. I keep counting how many sheets of paper left until the next chapter.

[Justin]

I've only ever tracked my reading by page count, and never really paid attention to the chapter breaks. I hadn't noticed how few chapters there were until I came across chapter 4 over half way through the book. Kinda silly to call them chapters. :)

[[deleted user]]

Lia wrote: "The lack of chapters really take a toll on my reading speed. I keep counting how many sheets of paper left until the next chapter."

Same here, Lia. When I first started, I kept thumbing through the pages looking for the end of chapters, because they are good spots to take a break. I've gotten used to it, but it is different.

[Justin]

How far into it are you, Danielle? Have you gotten to the part where aliens descend from the sky and give Hannibal lasers with which to slaughter the Romans? That's when the plot really takes off, though I think Durham took some liberties with the narrative there.

[Mark]

Justin wrote: "How far into it are you, Danielle? Have you gotten to the part where aliens descend from the sky and give Hannibal lasers with which to slaughter the Romans? That's when the plot really takes off,..."

Lols.

[Daniel]

Danielle wrote: "I am having the hardest time getting into this book."

Ancient Aliens did a TV spot on that very event.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Danielle wrote: "I am having the hardest time getting into this book."

Don't worry, mate. There are no aliens. :-)

It is not going to be a book everyone gets into. It is that kind of book. I am having the same problem over on the other group read. Our Medieval one.
Members rave about the book. It is a classic of the genre. And yet it is zapping my will to read. The book may be a masterpiece, but it is not my kind of masterpiece.
So don't feel bad if Pride is not for you. Sometimes books and readers don't click. Sometimes they do. :-)

[Justin]

Yeah, I've tried quite a few books that people raved about and either couldn't feel the fire for them, or was outright driven away and shocked that anyone liked them.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Sometimes it's disappointing not getting into something that the majority seem to like....but then I check out the ratings and reviews on GR and you will always find a minority who share your opinions on a book. :-)

[Jane]

Justin wrote: "Yeah, I've tried quite a few books that people raved about and either couldn't feel the fire for them, or was outright driven away and shocked that anyone liked them."

Ditto!!!

[Matt]

This is a good book, the style sort of reminds me of last months group read by Jan Guillou(As opposed to Bernard Cornwell or others like him).

[Matt]

The part with Imco Vaca and the Saguntine girl was very well written.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Hm. I missed the Guillou read (due to library issues....ie not being able to get there). But I like that you have not compared Pride to Cornwell. Durham does write so differently to Cornwell. I find he has more in common with Pressfield myself.

[Justin]

Terri wrote: "Durham does write so differently to Cornwell. I find he has more in common with Pressfield myself"

I completely agree. I've been reminded of Pressfield throughout the book, which is partly why I'm enjoying it so much.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Just without the F words.
There's no F words in Pride is there? I don't remember any.

[[deleted user]]

Terri wrote: "Just without the F words.
There's no F words in Pride is there? I don't remember any."

I haven't come across any F words yet. There is a little cursing, but not much. I love this authors writing style.

[Matt]

Derek wrote: "Terri wrote: "Just without the F words.
There's no F words in Pride is there? I don't remember any."

I haven't come across any F words yet. There is a little cursing, but not much. I love this aut..."

I like it too. Like I said, it somewhat reminded me of last month's group read, but I like this book more.

[[deleted user]]

I've yet to read a book by Guillou. I couldn't get a hold of last months read, but if the style is similar, I'll be tempted to keep trying.

[Bryn]

Fifty pages of a Guillou was enough for me. I see the Pressfield, although Durham excites me more because, in my eyes, he's much much better at people.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

You know..I tend to agree, Bryn. I have not read all of Pressfield's books, but of those I have read so far, Durham is much better with people.

[Bryn]

I've thought since my comment, it's rude of me to compare two authors I love. Sorry, though I do think it.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I hate doing it too. Only sometimes style can match style and we can't help but notice and mention. :)

[Michal]

Hi guys, I am only in the beginning of the book, but for all of you who are as visually oriented as me, here are some interesting links of Carthage reconstructions:

(some spoilers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdYhsh...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OdNFirNxwyg...

and this one is already *****(spoiler) Carthage:
http://www.meodia.com/wp-content/uplo...

Carthaginian hoplite:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...

Other pictures of some of the Carthaginian troops:
http://weaponsandwarfare.com/?p=8322

EDIT: included spoiler alerts :)

[[deleted user]]

Bryn wrote: "Fifty pages of a Guillou was enough for me. I see the Pressfield, although Durham excites me more because, in my eyes, he's much much better at people."

He is so good at people. Maybe the best that I've read in that aspect. I love the psychological detail in this book. Unless the last 150 pages go way downhill, this is going to be 5 stars & and one of my all time favorites...regardless of genre.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Michal wrote: "
EDIT: included spoiler alerts :) ..."

You have made one moderator very, very happy. :]

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Derek wrote: ".He is so good at people. Maybe the best that I've read in that aspect. I love the psychological detail in this book. Unless the last 150 pages go way downhill, this is going to be 5 stars & and one of my all time favorites...regardless of genre. .."


I can't wait to see what you think of the end. Books rarely make me tear up, but this one most certainly did.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

...by the way....no pressure on you to cry or anything...:)

[Matt]

Bryn wrote: "Fifty pages of a Guillou was enough for me. I see the Pressfield, although Durham excites me more because, in my eyes, he's much much better at people."

Guillou starts off incredibly slow. I don't know if you read the whole thing, but his first book doesn't get good until about half way through.

[Michal]

Terri wrote: "Michal wrote: "
EDIT: included spoiler alerts :) ..."

You have made one moderator very, very happy. :]"

Haha, I thougth so :).

BTW: this review looks great - quite a bit of resources and links included etc.
!probably contains spoilers! (haven't read it too far down because it looked like there might be some)
http://ancientimes.blogspot.sg/2013/0...

[Bryn]

Matthew wrote: "Guillou starts off incredibly slow. I don't know if you read the whole thing, but his first book..."

Hi Matthew. It was his book three, in fact, which I tried on its own.

[Michal]

Ok, I have to say I am quite a bit disappointed. I am not sure whether the book is badly researched, or we just do not have the information, or perhaps there were no differences, but it seems to me that Carthage has not culture, ethnicity or nothing whatsoever. What is described in the book looks like something like simplified Macedonians and overall Carthage as presented is culturally absolutely shallow. The only difference from Macedonians is that they have Carthaginian names, Baal, and elephants (and they lack almost anything more specific in terms of special combat skills or tactics, no specific units are described). The book even uses strictly Greek technical terms. And I am pretty sure that I am beyond the setting of the story. I remember that when we were voting for the books somebody mentioned that there are two camps of readers: pro-Carthaginian and pro-Roman. From the book it looks like pro-Carthaginian camp can be defined by four words. And by words I mean labels, because these words were not even explained in the book.

[Justin]

Michal wrote: "Ok, I have to say I am quite a bit disappointed. I am not sure whether the book is badly researched, or we just do not have the information, or perhaps there were no differences, but it seems to me..."

This hasn't stuck out to me. I'd say if there is a dearth of cultural exposition, then the same goes for the Romans, Gauls, and Iberians. It seems to me that Durham didn't set out with any of that in mind. It hasn't bothered me, and I don't think it will. I've been too caught up in the epic nature of the narrative and of the stories of the individuals in the book to notice. I'm interested to see, as I finish the last third of the book, if I notice this more. Thanks for the analysis.

[[deleted user]]

Terri wrote: "...by the way....no pressure on you to cry or anything...:)"

I hope it does make me cry. Books that do that to me are always the most memorable ones.:)

[[deleted user]]

Justin wrote: "Michal wrote: "Ok, I have to say I am quite a bit disappointed. I am not sure whether the book is badly researched, or we just do not have the information, or perhaps there were no differences, but..."

I agree, Justin. The author doesn't really dwell on any of the cultures that are present in this book. It hasn't bothered me at all either. As you said, it is more of a story about individuals and events.

I would like to learn more about the Carthaginian culture some day, but not now. This book is close to perfect, in my opinion.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

It must be hard for an author to get close to a culture that has so little known about it.
I thought culture was well enough represented. I must have planted my own imagination into it, because I remember a rich cultural setting.
I concede however, that the focus is more on what was happening to the key players during the war and not on the minutiae of the civilisation.
I think if Durham had concentrated even more on cultural detail the book would have turned into a 1000+ page book....and even less people would have wanted to read it. :)

[[deleted user]]

There are many different cultures represented. That's for sure. I've learned quite a bit about the different barbarian tribes that inhabited southern Europe at the time...and the Massylii...I knew nothing about how skilled a cavalry force they were, going into this.

So yeah...now that I think about..culture is well represented. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm learning something about cultures that I knew very little about beforehand.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Derek wrote: "o yeah...now that I think about..culture is well represented. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm learning something about cultures that I knew very little about beforehand. ..."

That's my lasting memory too. I learned about cultures. If I take nothing about culture away from a hist fic when I finish it, then it did not do its job. even to this day I have vivid scenes in my mind of Carthage, Hannibal's army etc.. i am not sure I came to them all by myself. Some have been planted there by the author.

[Michal]

@Justin: I agree that he does not describe other nations so much either. At least for me there is a difference in the fact that I have read about Rome, Greece, and Macedonia, but never about Carthage from the Carthaginian POV, therefore I needed more help there. But then again, I am only in one third and perhaps with the Hannibal's wife's story the author will reveal more.

1/3 book spoiler (view spoiler)[ Also, I expected more from the crossing of the Alps...I mean if I compare it to the winter crossing from Pressfield's Afghan Campaign, then in the pride of Carthage it seems to be quite underdeveloped. They mentioned just number of dead, some frostbites and Hannibal got himself cough. (hide spoiler)]

@ Terri: You might be right there, I'll see what he does later in the book, perhaps I am wrong and Durham still has something up his sleeves. Well, I can supply my own details that's true, but I was really looking forward to see this aspect, because until now I have encountered Carthaginians only when they took the main character of the book I was reading as a slave for rowing so there were just fragments of their culture, or they were on the wrong side of ship's ram :). And it seems to me that they should have stronger cultural identity – from the books I have read so far I have quite a good image of Romans, Greeks, Macedonians, Jews, Parthians, Scythians, Egiptians, even Numidians. Clearly, much of it can be an imagination of the authors, but still, I am not getting similar distinct image of Carthaginians from this book, at least not so far.

Ok, I'll comment next when I finished so I have the whole picture.

EDIT: just hidden the spoiler properly