Pre-WW2 Conflicts

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Members can talk about any good book or subject covering conflicts and campaigns that occurred before 1939 but are linked in some manner to WW2.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I have a number of good books on a range of pre-1939 conflicts that I would like to mention here but I will try and not hog the thread. I will only mention one of the more recent releases which is a re-release of a 1940 publication:

by Henry Buckley
Description:
In 1940, The Daily Telegraph correspondent Henry Buckley published his eyewitness account of his experiences reporting from the Spanish Civil War. The copies of the book, stored in a warehouse in London, were destroyed during the Blitz and only a handful of copies of his unique chronicle were saved. Now, 70 years after its first publication, this exceptional eyewitness account of the war is republished with a new introduction by Paul Preston. The Life and Death of the Spanish Republic is a unique account of Spanish politics throughout the entire life of the Second Republic, combining personal recollections of meetings with the great politicians of the day with eyewitness accounts of dramatic events. This important book is one of the most enduring records of the Spanish Republic and the civil war and a monumental testimony to Buckley’s work as a correspondent.

[Manray9]

Thanks for reminding me of Buckley's book. I read a review recently in one of the British newspapers of this reissue. I enjoyed Paul Preston's:

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Glad you mentioned Paul Reston there Manray9 as I have this book of his still to read (when will I ever get time!):

by Paul Preston

[Patricrk]

by A.J. Barker

by Gordon Thomas

by Hugh Thomas

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Some excellent books there Patricrk. I thought Gordon Thomas' book on Guernica was an excellent account.


by Gordon Thomas

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I recently read; Nomonhan, 1939 by Stuart Goldman which I think was a pretty good primer for further reading. I need to tackle Alvin D. Coox's book on the subject one day soon.

by Stuart D. Goldman

by Alvin D. Coox

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Here is another new release of a pre-1939 conflict that looks pretty good and I should try and read soon (how many times have I said that!):

by Peter Harmsen
Description:
This deeply researched book describes one of the great forgotten battles of the 20th century. At its height it involved nearly a million Chinese and Japanese soldiers, while sucking in three million civilians as unwilling spectators and, often, victims. It turned what had been a Japanese adventure in China into a general war between the two oldest and proudest civilizations of the Far East. Ultimately, it led to Pearl Harbor and to seven decades of tumultuous history in Asia. The Battle of Shanghai was a pivotal event that helped define and shape the modern world.

In its sheer scale, the struggle for China’s largest city was a sinister forewarning of what was in store for the rest of mankind only a few years hence, in theaters around the world. It demonstrated how technology had given rise to new forms of warfare, or had made old forms even more lethal. Amphibious landings, tank assaults, aerial dogfights and most importantly, urban combat, all happened in Shanghai in 1937. It was a dress rehearsal for World War II—or perhaps more correctly it was the inaugural act in the war—the first major battle in the global conflict.

Actors from a variety of nations were present in Shanghai during the three fateful autumn months when the battle raged. The rich cast included China's ascetic Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and his Japanese adversary, General Matsui Iwane, who wanted Asia to rise from disunity, but ultimately pushed the continent toward its deadliest conflict ever. Claire Chennault, later of “Flying Tiger” fame, was among the figures emerging in the course of the campaign, as was First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt. In an ironic twist, Alexander von Falkenhausen, a stern German veteran of the Great War, abandoned his role as a mere advisor to the Chinese army and led it into battle against the Japanese invaders.

[Manray9]

Patricrk wrote: " by A.J. Barker

by Gordon Thomas

by Hugh Thomas"

I think Hugh Thomas' book is still considered the definitive work in English on the SCW. The edition I read is old, but a revision was published in 2001. An interesting personal account by an American leftist is:

by Sandor Voros.

[Manray9]

Manray9 wrote: "Patricrk wrote: " by A.J. Barker

by Gordon Thomas

[bookcover:The Spanish Civil War|827..."

Thanks for the info on Barker's book on Italy-Ethiopia. I'll look for it. I have his book on the British Mesopotamian Campaign of WW I, but haven't read it. I've had the book since the 1970s -- shame on me!

[Colin]

Our new book out in October, Four War Boer, covers the life of Pieter Kruler, who after the 2nd Boer War and WW I in Africa, served as a mercenary in Spain during the Civil War. you all may like his story, very compelling.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Patricrk wrote: " by A.J. Barker

by Gordon Thomas

by Hugh Thomas"

Patricrk thanks for the post on Barker's book which I'd not seen before.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Another small conflict that shaped Greece and Turkey and involved to varying degrees or was watched with interest by Soviet Russia, France, Britain and Italy. I meant to read this book many years ago but have yet to do so and would welcome views if anyone has.

by Michael Llewellyn Smith

[Tytti]

Of course practically all of Finnish history from the WWI and 1918 is somehow linked to WWII, one might even start from 1899 or at least from 1905. But especially of course our Civil War and Estonian War of Independence, but also the rest of the Kinship Wars (Viena, Aunus, and two Petsamo expeditions, the East Karelian Uprising and the national revolt of Ingrian Finns) between 1918-1922. But good luck in finding anything about them in English. And I still haven't really understood why Finns and the British troops fought against each other in Petsamo...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimosodat

Also the Stalin's purges were one type of conflict when almost all leaders and active members of the Finnish Communist party in Karelia were executed. Mayme Sevander has a couple of books about the life there, like They Took My Father: Finnish Americans in Stalin's Russia and there is also Karelia: A Finnish-American Couple in Stalin's Russia. Also No Home for Us Here: The Mass Annihilation of the Finnish Border-Hoppers in the Urals in 1938 seems interesting, though I don't understand where they got that 15 million mentioned in the text. 15 thousand would be more correct...

[Manray9]

Tytti wrote: "Of course practically all of Finnish history from the WWI and 1918 is somehow linked to WWII, one might even start from 1899 or at least from 1905. But especially of course our Civil War and Estoni..."

When I lived in Russia, I drove with a colleague across the border from St. Petersburg to Imatra via Vyborg. Along the way, I badgered him into accompanying me through battlefields of the old Mannerheim Line. Then (1995) many trench lines, dugouts and bunkers remained. The most surprising aspect to me was the neatness and care taken with the Finnish military cemeteries in the area. I find the Soviet-Finnish War fascinating. My readings include:

by Walter Citrine, a British labor leader and politician.


by William Trotter

[Manray9]

Tytti wrote: "Of course practically all of Finnish history from the WWI and 1918 is somehow linked to WWII, one might even start from 1899 or at least from 1905. But especially of course our Civil War and Estoni..."

I neglected to mention my admiration for:
by Marshal Mannerheim and translated into English by Count Lewenhaupt.

[Tytti]

Manray9 wrote: "The most surprising aspect to me was the neatness and care taken with the Finnish military cemeteries in the area. I find the Soviet-Finnish War fascinating."

On which side? Though it is usually Finns who take care of them. I have pics of destroyed Finnish headstones in Russia... And yes, I have been camping among the old trenches in Kuhmo area.

Btw, the Winter War is already part of WWII. At least I don't know any reason why it wouldn't be.

[Manray9]

The cemeteries we saw were in Russia between St. Petersburg and Vyborg, off to the east toward Lake Ladoga. They appeared to be well maintained -- which was surprising at that time because the Russians properly maintained virtually nothing. Do Finnish groups do so in Russia? We saw no signs of vandalism, but it was quite some time ago.

I agree with the Winter War as part of WW II. Your comments on Karelia prompted me and, of course, Mannerheim's memoirs cover the post-WW I fighting.

[Tytti]

Manray9 wrote: "The cemeteries we saw were in Russia between St. Petersburg and Vyborg, off to the east toward Lake Ladoga. They appeared to be well maintained -- which was surprising at that time because the Rus..."

Yes, I think they do. Though those might have been new then, done after the fall of the Soviet Union. The ones I have seen were older Finnish ones before the war. Some headstones of the British fallen soldiers had also been used as building blocks...

Finns still try to somehow preserve the old buildings in Viborg for example. It used to be such a beautiful town... The second biggest (after Helsinki) and oldest (after Turku) in Finland and the most cosmopolitan, four languages were spoken there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ROpb3...

This is a shortened documentary about the history of Viburg (Viipuri). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAHd2V...

[Dj]

Haile Selassie's War: The Ethiopian-Italian Campaign, 1935-1941

This is a really good book on a little discussed aspect of the early war.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Thanks Dj added to my TBR.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Beat me to it Dj, it's a very detailed account.

I was also going to say in response to Manray9's message (#10) that I am also looking at ordering a copy of A.J. Barker's book on the Italo-Ethiopia war and I also have, unread, his account on the British campaign in Mesopotamia during WW1.

by Anthony Mockler

[Manray9]

Tytti wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "The cemeteries we saw were in Russia between St. Petersburg and Vyborg, off to the east toward Lake Ladoga. They appeared to be well maintained -- which was surprising at that time..."

Thanks. Great video. We tried to visit Vyborg Castle, but it was closed at the time. Unfortunately, the city was rather rundown and too "Soviet."

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

One book on the Spanish Civil War that I didn't enjoy as much as I expected was Antony Beevor's account.

I'm not too sure why, but I didn't like it as much as his accounts on Stalingrad and Berlin. Did anyone else feel the same in regards to this book?

by Antony Beevor

[Dj]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Beat me to it Dj, it's a very detailed account.

I was also going to say in response to Manray9's message (#10) that I am also looking at ordering a copy of A.J. Barker's book on the Italo-Ethiopi..."


It is another of my wonderful used book store finds. LOL. I am going to try and get back over there next weekend.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Let us know what other gems you find on your next trip then Dj.

[Dj]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Let us know what other gems you find on your next trip then Dj."

I will be happy to.

[Stephen]

Aussie Rick, you are spot on with Beevor's Spanish civil war. I am a big fan of his and the book was informative but I think the complexity of the war, with so many political factions involved just got too confusing, was a struggle to finish.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

This is very interesting as I have read other's reviews saying that the book was difficult and complex (in the book's structure and the politics/events and participants). I have a copy as I enjoyed Mr Beevor's other books but have yet to attempt it, and with both your comments above Rick and Stephen I may hold off longer. Do others hold similar views?

[Tom]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I recently read; Nomonhan, 1939 by Stuart Goldman which I think was a pretty good primer for further reading. I need to tackle Alvin D. Coox's book on the subject one day soon.


Coox's is on my list too.

Here's another book that looks interesting..

[Tytti]

Manray9 wrote: "Tytti wrote: "Of course practically all of Finnish history from the WWI and 1918 is somehow linked to WWII, one might even start from 1899 or at least from 1905. But especially of course our Civil ..."

I actually missed this earlier. One probably has to remember that the memoirs were written soon after the war(s) (Finns always refer to them in plural) when the political situation was very difficult.

That era of activism is interesting, starting from WWI. School boys in Helsinki were planning of an assassination of the Czar while sitting in detention etc...

[Gerald]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Here is another new release of a pre-1939 conflict that looks pretty good and I should try and read soon (how many times have I said that!):

[bookcover:Shanghai 1937: Stalingrad on the Yangtze|171..."

This might sound like nitpicking, but some historians view World War II as a series of conflicts of which the Second Sino-Japanese War was one. Viewed in that light, is it really a pre-World War II conflict?

[Gerald]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Beat me to it Dj, it's a very detailed account.

I was also going to say in response to Manray9's message (#10) that I am also looking at ordering a copy of A.J. Barker's book on the Italo-Ethiopi..."

I second that opinion. "Haile Selassie's War" is an excellent account of the Italo-Ethiopian War.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Hi Gerald,

I would agree that the Second Sino-Japanese War became part of the great conflict of WW2 but I think the standard start date that most historians accept for WW2 is still considered September 1, 1939, but everything is open to interpretation and discussion here :)

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Gerald,

I would agree that the Second Sino-Japanese War became part of the great conflict of WW2 but I think the standard start date that most historians accept for WW2 is still considered Sept..."

In my opinion some of the common historical divisions are, indeed, arbitrary, but for the purposes of discussion WW II should be considered to start on Sept. 1, 1939 with Hitler’s invasion of Poland.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Manray9 wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Gerald,

I would agree that the Second Sino-Japanese War became part of the great conflict of WW2 but I think the standard start date that most historians accept for WW2 is..."

Likewise I agree with Gerald and Manray9 but it makes it easier for us I guess to compartmentalise but of course history is actually events and situations joined or linked by events and as such is a continuum.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I failed to mention this 1940 publication covering the conflict in Ethiopia which I am sure will interest a few members. I am still to read my copy of course!

by Pedro del Valle

[Manray9]

On the subject of pre-WW II conflicts, for a book both topical and funny, check out:

"Waugh in Abyssinia" by Evelyn Waugh.

He would not be considered politically-correct by current standards, but the book is insightful and hilarious.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Manray9 I loved his

[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "Manray9 I loved his "

Geevee: Thanks. I have read it. I'm a Waugh fan. Don't think there's much I haven't read.

[carl]

Scoop translates to about any war, too true!

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

I agree Carl, I really must read more of his work but Scoop was a joy.

[Tytti]

This sounds interesting.

[Manray9]

This article isn't about WW II, but Erwin Rommel's participation in the Battle of Caporetto in WW I. October 24th was the anniversary of the Austro-German assault on the Italian lines. The article was a link from RealClearHistory.

http://www.humanities360.com/index.ph...

Caporetto figures significantly in:

Infantry Attacks by Erwin Rommel, which in turn is an important source in --

The White War by Mark Thompson

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Although slightly off topic, another good book covering that area of WW1 is:


by John R. Schindler

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Manray9 wrote: "This article isn't about WW II, but Erwin Rommel's participation in the Battle of Caporetto in WW I. October 24th was the anniversary of the Austro-German assault on the Italian lines. The articl..."

I thought the White War an excellent book and not read the one posted by Rick so added to the TBR (which is growing at the rate of a new universe!).

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I've read both books Geevee and for me Isonzo was the better account but others may disagree.

[Tytti]

I think I am having my own discussions here because my books and all of yours differ so much...

But anyhow, another book I might even find because it has been reprinted: (The Truth about Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania), written by non other than Mika Waltari. It was published in Sweden in April 1941 under the pen name Nauticus.

It tells about what happened in the Baltic countries during the time from fall 1939 to summer 1940 and describes the changes that happened in the Estonian society. It has anecdotes and stories from eye witnesses and also secret information from intelligence reports and official documents that he had access to when working for the propaganda department.

"Children's eyes are blindfolded and they are asked to pray God for candy. The blinds are taken off but there is no candy. Then they are again blindfolded and asked to pray allmighty Father Stalin for candy. After the blinds are taken off, the children see that everyone has a candy in front of them."

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Tytti it may feel like but I do like reading your posts as the information and your views are adding to my knowledge and understanding.

[Tytti]

I was just thinking that I hardly ever comment other posts but then mention books most of you can't read... We do have lots of WWII literature here but not the books you talk about. And when I tried watching The Pacific I thought it was not very interesting and almost boring...