THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA
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Pre-WW2 Conflicts
"The International Brigades" - The Battle of Teruel which was known as the Stalingrad of Spain:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...
https://carolineangusbaker.com/tag/ba...
https://spartacus-educational.com/SPt...
Thanks for those links AR, good stuff!
My pleasure Mike :)
From the book; "The International Brigades", the war is entering its final stage, this account is from September 1938:"For weeks now, Mussolini's aircraft had been targeting Barcelona, their random bombing-runs over civilian parts of the city designed to cower the population and damage morale. 'Terror is the most effective weapon of the air force,' one of his generals had reported, as raids on the city killed 3,000 people. 'It should be launched against enemy populations, destroying cities, their centres and all means of life, submitting it to a nightmare that forces surrender.' Mussolini's foreign minister, Ciano, was shocked by one bombing report that urged Il Duce to greater efforts. 'I have never read such a terrifying document,' he said. 'There were only nine S-79 [aircraft] and it lasted just a minute and a half. Buildings reduced to dust, traffic stopped, panic that turned to madness.'
From the windows of the city's Hotel majestic, India's future prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru had watched the bombs fall on and around Barcelona in June: 'Five nights to the accompaniment of aerial bombardment. Five days and nights, crowded with events, and impressions, the memory of which will endure.' He saw in those falling bombs a link between the fight against fascism and Indian resistance to colonialism. 'There, in the midst of want and destruction and impending disaster, I felt more at peace with myself than anywhere else in Europe. There was a light there, a light of courage and determination and of doing something worthwhile,' he wrote later. The previous month he had visited the British Brigaders. 'Reluctantly I came away from these gallant men of the International Brigade, for something in me wanted to stay on this inhospitable-looking hillside which sheltered so much human courage, so much of what was worthwhile in life,' he said."
The International Brigades: Fascism, Freedom and the Spanish Civil War by Giles Tremlett
"The International Brigades" - During late 1938 to early 1939 the International Brigades were disbanded and sent home in an attempt to garner support from allied nations in the fight against fascism:"Some 5,000 men, or one in seven, had died. A similar number were missing, either dead, imprisoned or had deserted. Around 6,000 had already been sent home, many of them injured, and a further 3,160 were in hospital. The chances of returning home unscathed, then, had been somewhere below 50 per cent. Most of the earliest volunteers - those who had fought in the first few days at Jarama in February 1937, at University City or at Boadilla and the other battles to defend the La Coruna highway before and after Christmas 19936 - had almost certainly died. Those who had survived, usually did so because they had been wounded and sent home or spent time in hospitals away from the battlefield. They had been an almost unique phenomenon for the time - an international volunteer army - and had paid a high price for what, to all intents and purposes, was a military defeat. Only time would tell if they had won a moral victory by arguing correctly that the only way to stop fascism was with a gun in your hand. Proof that they were right would come the following year, in Poland and elsewhere."
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020...
Sgt. Edward Carter received the Distinguished Service Cross for an action near Speyer, Germany in March 1945. A member of the 12th Armored, his tank was knocked out and he led three soldiers against the Germans who did the damage. Two of his men were killed, the other wounded, Carter was wounded five times, but alone killed six Germans and captured two. In the 1990s his award was reviewed because, as a black American, many such awards had been improperly downgraded. It was upgraded in 1997 to the Medal of Honor. Despite such leadership and heroism, Carter was denied reenlistment in 1949. Why? Because he had fought in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in Spain and was hence considered unreliable. The terminology used by the FBI against the Lincoln Brigaders was they were "premature anti-facists." Alvah Bessie, the blacklisted Hollywood screenwriter and AL Brigade veteran, wrote about it.
Some great posts AR. Seems like this is a pretty decent account.
Manray9 wrote: "Sgt. Edward Carter received the Distinguished Service Cross for an action near Speyer, Germany in March 1945. A member of the 12th Armored, his tank was knocked out and he led three soldiers agains..."The author mentioned "premature anti-fascists" and Alvah Bessie gets lots of mentions.
Mike wrote: "Some great posts AR. Seems like this is a pretty decent account."I really enjoyed it Mike, very easy to read, informative and at times hard to put down.
Today I received a good used hardcover of Paul Preston's --
Comrades: Portraits from the Spanish Civil War.
I hope you enjoy th ebook MR9, Paul Preston seems to be quite a prolific author on the Spanish Civil War.
A July release:
by Michael AlpertDescription:
The Spanish Civil War of 1936-1939 underlined the importance of the sea as the supply route to both General Franco's insurgents and the Spanish Republic. There were attempted blockades by Franco as well as attacks by his Italian and German allies against legitimate neutral, largely British, merchant shipping bound for Spanish Republican ports and challenges to the Royal Navy, which was obliged to maintain a heavy presence in the area. The conflict provoked splits in British public opinion. Events at sea both created and reflected the international tensions of the latter 1930s, when the policy of appeasement of Germany and Italy dissuaded Britain from taking action against those countries’ activities in Spain, except to participate in a largely ineffective naval patrol to try to prevent the supply of war material to both sides. The book is based on original documentary sources in both Britain and Spain and is intended for the general reader as well as students and academics interested in the history of the 1930s, in naval matters and in the Spanish Civil War.
Something a bit different on the Spanish Civil War, thanks for posting the details Jerome.
Last year, I started reading Anthony Beevor's The Battle for Spain. I quickly got lost among all the generals and political parties and stopped, though I'd like to revisit this book someday. Is there a really good first book to read as an intro to this topic?
One book that I really enjoyed on the subject Theresa was this newish title:
The International Brigades: Fascism, Freedom and the Spanish Civil War by Giles Tremlett
Thanks Thomas! I'll look at that book for sure!
Tonight I'm starting the autobiography of an important Republican figure of the Spanish Civil War --
They Shall Not Pass: The Autobiography of La Pasionaria by Dolores Ibárruri.La Pasionaria was a Communist. Her autobiography was published in the Soviet Union in 1966. A pinch of salt may be required.
I hope its still an interesting account, even with the pinch of salt :)
From They Shall Not Pass: The Autobiography of La Pasionaria by Dolores Ibárruri.La Pasionaria's fiery nature and dedication to the cause passed down to her son, Rubén Ruiz Ibárruri. During the Spanish Civil War he lied about his age (he was 16) and joined the Republican forces. He served with distinction at the Battle of the Ebro.
After the fall of the Spanish Republic, he fled to the Soviet Union and attended a military academy. He fought with noteworthy valor at Borisov in 1941 and was seriously wounded. As a lieutenant he led the 100th Machine Gun Company of the 35th Guards Rifles. On 3 Sept 1942, he died of wounds received leading a last ditch stand outside Stalingrad. He's buried at Mamayev Kurgan. He was a Hero of the Soviet Union and held the Order of Lenin and the Order of the Red Banner.
His memorial at Volgograd:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...
I'm not too sure if I have come across him in my reading on Stalingrad. Pretty amazing story MR9, thanks for posting those details.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I'm not too sure if I have come across him in my reading on Stalingrad. Pretty amazing story MR9, thanks for posting those details."Another interesting tidbit. After the Civil War, a group of Spanish Communist military refugees was taken into the NKVD as part of the Separate Motorized Infantry Brigade. They served as a special guard detachment at the Moscow Kremlin. Considering Stalin's paranoia, especially concerning foreigners, this was surprising. Antony Beevor mentioned the outfit in his The Battle for Spain: The Spanish Civil War 1936-1939.
Very interesting indeed MR9!
Jerome wrote: "A July 2021 release: by Giles TremlettDescription:
The Spanish Civil War was the first ..."
Stalin also threw the weight of his troops and aircraft into the fray in defiance of Franco, and with the introduction of Soviet pilots and aircraft, was thus born the Condor Legion.
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - I found this account quite interesting in regards to some Japanese attempts to reconcile the Chinese to their presence and the Chinese response:Impatience among Japanese commanders was one of the reasons for these problems, but the cruelty exhibited all too frequently by troops outside of Canton was also a constant drag on whatever limited political progress was made. Captain Edwards reported; "Of all of Japan's mistakes none has been so foolish or done more to lose her the war than the apparent inability to prevent, if not the actual incitement of her soldiers to behave as pure savages. Especially during the early days of the war murder of large numbers of innocent civilians under revolting conditions, looting, arson and wholesale rape were the normal corollary of every Japanese advance." Continued cooperation between the Chinese central government and the communists was the first result of Japanese cruelty. Increased political awareness among many Chinese was another. Edwards continued: "It turned even the uneducated Chinese peasant, who normally neither knows nor cares who rules him, so he can cultivate his field in peace, into an active enemy of Japan, either as a guerrilla or as the guerrilla's friend." Many Chinese also shared the fatalistic view that, having survived for two years on their own with limited aid from abroad, times was on their side. An acquaintance in Chungking once told Edwards: "We do not expect to beat Japan to her knees, but we think we can drag her down with us."
Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941 by Franco David Macri
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - I found this account quite interesting in regards to some Japanese attempts to reconcile the Chinese to their presence and the Chinese response:Impatience among Japanese commanders was one of the reasons for these problems, but the cruelty exhibited all too frequently by troops outside of Canton was also a constant drag on whatever limited political progress was made. Captain Edwards reported; "Of all of Japan's mistakes none has been so foolish or done more to lose her the war than the apparent inability to prevent, if not the actual incitement of her soldiers to behave as pure savages. Especially during the early days of the war murder of large numbers of innocent civilians under revolting conditions, looting, arson and wholesale rape were the normal corollary of every Japanese advance." Continued cooperation between the Chinese central government and the communists was the first result of Japanese cruelty. Increased political awareness among many Chinese was another. Edwards continued: "It turned even the uneducated Chinese peasant, who normally neither knows nor cares who rules him, so he can cultivate his field in peace, into an active enemy of Japan, either as a guerrilla or as the guerrilla's friend." Many Chinese also shared the fatalistic view that, having survived for two years on their own with limited aid from abroad, times was on their side. An acquaintance in Chungking once told Edwards: "We do not expect to beat Japan to her knees, but we think we can drag her down with us."
Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941 by Franco David Macri
'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - I found this account quite interesting in regards to some Japanese attempts to reconcile the Chinese to thei..."Japanese atrocities pushed the Chinese peasants into taking sides. Ultimately that benefited Mao and the Communists.
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - The author has mentioned the Battle of Nomonhan a few times and the bracing affect it had on Chinese moral.I found this pretty cool presentation on the battle:
https://www.asahi.com/special/nomonha...
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - Some more interesting information from the book in regards to low-intensity conflict at Hong Kong during 1938-39:"Anglo-Japanese conflict was becoming more of a problem in the air. Other than for reconnaissance missions, the Royal Air Force's few Walrus and Vildebeeste biplanes at Hong Kong were of little combat value; this became evident during the Lo Wu incident, when Japanese pilots flew over the colony with no fear of interference. Attacks on aircraft flying it or out of Hong Kong, such as occurred in August 1938, were a constant threat, and more aircraft were forced down during the blockade. Civilian pilots also had to worry about being hit by antiaircraft fire from Japanese warships. For example, the Imperial Airways aircraft Delia was fired on near Hong Kong on 31 January 1939. Another Imperial Airways plane, the Dardanus, was attacked on 8 November 1939 while flying from Hong Kong to Bangkok; three naval fighters forced it to land at Weichow Island in the Gulf of Tonkin, but no casualties were reported. Colonial airspace violations resumed only a month after resolution of the Lo Wu incident when three Japanese naval aircraft overflew Castle Peak while en route to their ship located west of Lin in Island. In April, four Type 96 Japanese bombers from Sanchau Island flew through Hong Kong airspace at Deep Bay, and on 29 April, HMS Cicala was buzzed at Black Point by three of the same type of aircraft. Three monoplanes made a mock dive-bombing attack on a police station on Lantau Island on 8 May. Macau was similarly intimidated when a squadron of Japanese bombers overflew the city on 2 July while returning to their base at Sanchau."
Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941 by Franco David Macri
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - The author has provided some details on the First Battle of Changsha, September and October 1939. It seems that there were numerous battles fought for this city and according to the article below it was; "Now all but forgotten, Changsha was one of the most bitterly contested cities of the Pacific War":
https://www.historynet.com/controllin...
YouTube presentation on the First Battle of Changsha:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K5E_...
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found this pretty cool presentation on the battle:..."A very informative and clear account of the battle AR. Thanks!
'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - The author has provided some details on the First Battle of Changsha, September and October 1939. It seems..."
Nice Youtube video, though I hate those robot voices.
Manray9 wrote: "'Nice Youtube video, though I hate those robot voices. ..."I'm with MR9, that voice was very distracting but good info.
That's strange, I don't have any audio on mine when I scroll though the pages. Maybe I broke something the first time I used it :)
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - The Japanese are intensifying their air campaign in China:"Chungking was bombarded with great frequency from May to November 1940 in the hope of breaking popular support for the war, and one mission alone accounted for more than 10,000 deaths. Conducted primarily by Japanese naval wings 13 and 15, the initial missions consisted of approximately 27 aircraft; these grew to more than 100 aircraft, but tactics varied, so multiple smaller missions were also carried out on some days. Incendiaries were used, beginning with the 190-plane raid on the night of 19-20 August. Overall, in purely arithmetic terms, the Japanese exchanged one ton of bombs for very Chinese killed. In addition to bombs, they dropped leaflets comparing death in Chungking to peace in occupied China. The Japanese expended great effort in this campaign, including the employment of woman as part of their aircrews. At the end of June, a dead female radio operator was found in the wreckage of a bomber brought down by antiaircraft fire near Chungking. Weak Chinese air units defended the capital until September and were able to shoot down about one or two aircraft per mission, but after the arrival of the new Japanese Zero, Chinese fighters were driven from the sky, and with the exception of a few antiaircraft guns, the city was left virtually unprotected."
Two things that stick out from that quote:
1. - The Japanese labelled B-29 crewmen captured as 'Special Prisoners' not covered as POW's due to the fact the B-29's were involved in fire bombing (just as the Japanese did in China) and as such were normally executed soon after capture.
2. - I've not heard of any Japanese female aircrew before.
Japanese 'Special Prisoners':
https://www.142fw.ang.af.mil/News/Fea...
https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14...
'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - The Japanese are intensifying their air campaign in China:"Chungking was bombarded with great frequency fr..."
The female aviators was news to me too. Surprising considering Japanese attitudes toward women in that era.
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - I found this bit of information very interesting and it makes perfect sense:Earlier in the year a British propaganda office had been opened in Hong Kong to counter Japanese radio broadcasts. Grasett and others thought Britain needed a better propaganda campaign in both China and Japan, since publications containing illustrations of happy soldiers with their girlfriends or of women in air raid shelters sent the wrong message, unlike German propaganda which featured tanks and victory parades. Hong Kong intelligence officers explained this to London:
Our own representatives in Tokyo are fully alive to the necessity for careful selection in the type of propaganda which should be sent to Japan, and have requested London to avoid, as far as possible, the sending of photographs depicting the democratic habits of their Majesties, soldiers kissing their sweethearts, and others of this kind, which though popular in America and the Dominions are highly incongruous and un-military to Japanese eyes. Photographs of U-Boat personnel in uniform as prisoners of war, would go a long way to counteract similar German efforts; whilst action pictures of troops, naval units engaged in anti-submarine work etc. should also be distributed on a lavish scale. Best of all however are photographs of aeroplanes of all types. The Japanese dove of peace has long since developed a tendency to resemble a twin-engine bomber; and a study of the Japanese pictorial press for the last year or two reveals the undisputable fact that pictures of aeroplanes, in action or on the ground, are more popular than anything else. Japan is becoming are-minded at a phenomenal rate, and the more we can do to convince her that we are a first-class nation in the air, the better for our prestige.
Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941 by Franco David Macri
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - The Second Battle of Changsha saw even heavy fighting that the first battle, and Soviet General Vasili Chuikov was present as an observer.The Second Battle of Changsha:
https://www.oceancitytoday.com/column...
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - The author also covered the heavy fighting at the Battle of Ichang and the Japanese use of gas/chemical warfare:"The turning point occurred during the heaviest fighting between 8 and 10 October, as Soviet advisers encouraged the Chinese to push home the attack. After several uphill assaults, the Chinese bent the Japanese line, but as Ichang was about to be taken, a strong counterattacks with recently arrived reinforcements hit their norther flank. Heavy air strikes and, more ominously, a large-scale use of chemical weapons supported this attack. Mustard gas and phosgene were employed, and more than 1,000 shells weighing twenty to fifty pounds each were fired into Chinese positions. The battle of Ichang marked the heaviest use of gas in the war, with munitions impacting an area 2,000 yards long by 1,500 yards wide, Chinese troops had no defense against chemical weapons, and gas casualties numbered approximately 1,350, of which 750 were killed. Japanese chemical weapons attacks had been on the increase since July 1940, but occurrences had generally been scattered and of limited intensity. General Magruder noted, 'Attacks in August and October Nineteen Forty One were concentrated and heavy.' Against this pressure, Chiang broke off the attack and ordered a westward withdrawal from Ichang. The Sino-Japanese War was stalemated once again."
Documents on Japanese Poison Gas Warfare in China:
https://chinajapan.org/articles/07.1/...
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - The Japanese tried again to take Changsha which led to the third battle for this city:https://ww2days.com/japanese-make-thi...
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - The Japanese have attacked Hong Kong and the author mentioned the action in which Company Sergeant Major John Robert Osborn was subsequently awarded the Victoria Cross - posthumously.V.C. citation:
"At Hong Kong, on 19th December, 1941, a company of the Winnipeg Grenadiers became divided in an attack on Mount Butler. A part of the company led by C.S.M. Osborn captured the hill at bayonet point, but after three hours owing to the superior numbers of the enemy the position became untenable. C.S.M. Osborn and a small group covered the withdrawal and when their turn came to fall back he single-handed engaged the enemy, exposing himself to heavy enemy fire to cover their retirement. Later the Company was cut off and completely surrounded. Several enemy grenades were thrown which C.S.M. Osborn picked up and threw back. When one landed in a position where it was impossible to pick it up, he threw himself upon it and was instantly killed. His self-sacrifice undoubtedly saved the lives of many of his comrades. C.S.M. Osborn was an inspiring example to all throughout the defence, and in his death he displayed the highest qualities of heroism and self-sacrifice."
John Osborn, VC:
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...
https://valourcanada.ca/military-hist...
"Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - The Third Battle of Changsha and the Japanese are up to their usual horrific actions:"The worst stage of the battle was set to begin. Between 4 and 11 January the Japanese 11th Army had to fight its way north from Changsha through numerous Chinese armies and over a total of four different rivers in muddy, icy conditions. Fighting was difficult, and severe casualties were the result. The retreat began on the very cold night of 3 January 1942, and as a parting gesture, the Japanese burned the university hospital after killing those wounded who could not be moved, along with several of the nursing staff. The fire was used as a funeral pyre."
Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941 by Franco David Macri
'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""Clash of Empires in South China: The Allied Nations' Proxy War with Japan, 1935-1941" - The Third Battle of Changsha and the Japanese are up to their usual horrific actions:"The worst stage of t..."
Brutal.
From Silver State Dreadnought: The Remarkable Story of Battleship Nevada by Stephen Younger.In 1925 the U.S. Fleet undertook the Great Cruise. The Atlantic vessels came through the Panama Canal, spent some time along the U.S. western coast, and then set sail with Pacific ships for a series of exercises in Hawaii, then Pago Pago, and on to Australia and New Zealand. The purpose was to demonstrate to Japan the U.S. Navy's capability to operate far from home. Approaching Australia, Admiral Coontz, CinC Fleet, decided 23,000 American sailors and 46 ships may strain the hospitality of any Aussie city. He split the fleet, sending the cruisers, destroyers, and support ships to Sydney, while the battleships Nevada, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, and the cruiser Seattle went to Melbourne. They arrived on 22 July 1925 to a welcome by thousands. An estimated 125,000 people came to visit the ships at Prince's Pier during the port call. The U.S. Navy crews and their bands paraded through the streets of Melbourne. A ball was held aboard Nevada with 1,000 local people invited. 2,000 showed up. The crowd was so large and eager, they overwhelmed the USMC security detachment. Lt. (later Rear Admiral) Charles Wheeler said:
It was the only time I've ever known in the Navy when we lost control of a ship.
Apparently, American sailors took to Aussie women and vice versa. The number of marriages was substantial. The vessels departed on 6 August and arrived in Wellington on 11 August to a similar reception.
Great post MR9, we Aussies love to see big ships in Sydney Harbour and Melbourne and Sydney are rival cities so each would try and outdo the other in welcoming celebrations :)
Makes sense. My brother was in the US Navy, and I have a niece living in Sydney, LOL
Colin wrote: "Makes sense. My brother was in the US Navy, and I have a niece living in Sydney, LOL"Yep :)
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
The Fleet that Fought Itself: The Spanish Navy and the Civil War 1936–39 (other topics)Spain Betrayed: The Soviet Union in the Spanish Civil War (other topics)
Spain Betrayed: The Soviet Union in the Spanish Civil War (other topics)
Mac-Pap: Memoir of a Canadian in the Spanish Civil War (other topics)
Mac-Pap: Memoir of a Canadian in the Spanish Civil War (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Leonard R. Heinz (other topics)Jonathan Whitehead (other topics)
Charles Stephenson (other topics)
Harald Jähner (other topics)
Greg Growden (other topics)
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