The Orion Team. discussion
CONVENTIONS OF SPYING
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Issue: The use of Swearing in thrillers?
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There is swearing in my book. A particularly Salty Senior Chief Petty officer. There is also swearing during high emotion and combat moments. My protagonist however, does not swear. In a world where swearing becomes commonplace, those who do not swear become more unique and their words more powerful. I did that on purpose and it seems to work.
I don't mind swearing when it is appropriate to the character/scene. I have found Tom Clancy's later books too full of the f word, honestly. Not every person speaks that way and not so many characters should, to be realistic, except in certain predictable settings. Clancy also gets in a rut in a book or two using the word pussy over and over in a sexist derogatory manner.I did not find the swearing too odd in Jack's book, except once, when Carla Jo used the c word with the assistant swim coach, that just felt out of character to me. bitch would have been more expected. Women (even very rough women) very rarely use that word. It is almost exclusively a word of derision used by males.
Let's all agree that pussy and cunt have been overused and we can all move on to less sexist, more descriptive and intelligent language, 'kay?
Amelia wrote: "I don't mind swearing when it is appropriate to the character/scene. I have found Tom Clancy's later books too full of the f word, honestly. Not every person speaks that way and not so many charact..."Remember what Carla Jo was and where she came from. But yeah, believe it or not I debated with myself in that scene. However, she was pissed and rightfully so.
I remember where the character came from, I just disagree that she is likely to use that word, which is almost exclusively a word of derision used by males referring to females. :)
Amelia wrote: "I remember where the character came from, I just disagree that she is likely to use that word, which is almost exclusively a word of derision used by males referring to females. :)"I must say, I'm really impressed you remember such detail from my book. I guess you did like it. I have a warm fuzzy feeling.
Plenty of women around who use the C word, you just probably don't meet them. Different social circles and such.
Samuel wrote: "Recently, while looking at some negative reviews, a common theme was "bad language". Now, authors use this to add more impact occasionally to dialogue and create a bit more authenticity (especially..."
If writing a spy/military action novel set in the real world, then avoiding swearing entirely would be unrealistic. I work on a military base and hear swearing all the time around me, mostly done out of habit rather than out of rudeness. If the setting is logical and appropriate for some swearing, then use it. I would not be interested in reading a politically-correct spy thriller.
If writing a spy/military action novel set in the real world, then avoiding swearing entirely would be unrealistic. I work on a military base and hear swearing all the time around me, mostly done out of habit rather than out of rudeness. If the setting is logical and appropriate for some swearing, then use it. I would not be interested in reading a politically-correct spy thriller.
When I was in the Navy we used F*$K as a noun, pro-noun, verb and adjective. I could speak entire sentences with F#*K and a conjunction.
In military settings such language is no surprise at all, of course. In many other situations, it is not so common. I don't think anyone seriously expects writers to avoid swear words and certainly no one here has suggested that. However, their judicial use in appropriate believable settings is a hallmark of good writing.
Ian wrote: "I realize it's frowned upon on Goodreads to talk about your own writing too much, but this is something I've wrestled with. As a person and a reader I don't like the excessive use of foul languag..."
Why not talk about your writing? It's the only experience I have to share. Being relatively new, prepping the release of my second book, I've taken some pretty good advice from readers and Authors. Amelia up there being one of them. Bring it Mr. Ian.
Oh, my protagonist finally lets loose with some blue words at the end of the second book. It's certainly not gratuitous.
Mod
As a person and a reader I don't like the excessive use of foul languag..."
Frowned upon to talk about your writing process? Not in this group. Feel free do to so.
Mod
Ian wrote: "I realize it's frowned upon on Goodreads to talk about your own writing too much, but this is something I've wrestled with. As a person and a reader I don't like the excessive use of foul languag..."
Language needs to appropriate to the story, a bunch of soldiers saying "Golly gee" and "Gosh Darn" or "Fudge" would provoke me to toss a book in the trash in a heartbeat.
Salty language is appropriate as long as it is relevant to the story.
Profanity for the sole purpose of being profane is not.
Many people complained about the use of profanity in Andy Weir's The Martian. I found he's use of it fit the situation. to swear just to swear doesn't help the story at all. it's all about personal tastes imo.
I personaly don't mind the use of profanity in a book, as long as it is within character and context, like a group of soldiers in a combat zone talking together. On the other hand, NOT using profanity when it would make the conversation more realistic (as Gideon pointed out) only will make the story sound silly. If some readers play the offended virgins on seeing profanities in a military thriller or a crime thriller, then they should keep to YA or religious works. Don't expect soldiers under fire to talk like priests.
Michel, I agree. I served in the military for 10 years. People swear. If you want your reader to feel like you're really there, it's a good idea to include some of that language.
Mod
Spy thriller writer Mark Henshaw blogged about this topic. His argument raises some very interesting points, six of them in fact. Point 4 is a stand out.
Points two and three however are most debatable however and I disagree with them.
http://www.markhenshaw.com/random-tho...
Very interesting thread. It actually brings up a conversation I had with my editor. I spent five years in the 82nd Airborne and went to both Iraq and Afghanistan. Soldiers swear a lot, it's a huge part of the culture, and I believe that it must be conveyed in the book.
The conversation I had, with my editor, actually dealt with violence but I believe the two concepts go hand in hand. As a Combat Vet I'm coming from a world that is not polite and sometimes reslism isn't palatable to a reader, but it is accurate. The challenge for me is to balance the two and still make it palatable for the average reader.
Samuel wrote: "
Spy thriller writer Mark Henshaw blogged about this topic. His argument raises some very interesting points, six of them in fa..."
I have to disagree strongly with Mike Henshaw, especially about Point Three of his list. Henshaw's father may have been a polite Marine (a rarity indeed and probably confined to his home), but Henshaw obviously never was in a combat zone with soldiers (if he did, then he had to be deaf!). His contention that profanities are not common in real life is frankly either naive or wishfull thinking. I certainly would find ridiculous a military thriller in which soldiers always avoid profanities. Adding them in a military thriller is simply a way to make it realistic, and not, as Henshaw suggests, the product of author's laziness. If he is trying to push his own beliefs on others, then military/spy thrillers are not the place for it.
Spy thriller writer Mark Henshaw blogged about this topic. His argument raises some very interesting points, six of them in fa..."
I have to disagree strongly with Mike Henshaw, especially about Point Three of his list. Henshaw's father may have been a polite Marine (a rarity indeed and probably confined to his home), but Henshaw obviously never was in a combat zone with soldiers (if he did, then he had to be deaf!). His contention that profanities are not common in real life is frankly either naive or wishfull thinking. I certainly would find ridiculous a military thriller in which soldiers always avoid profanities. Adding them in a military thriller is simply a way to make it realistic, and not, as Henshaw suggests, the product of author's laziness. If he is trying to push his own beliefs on others, then military/spy thrillers are not the place for it.
Mod
Spy thriller writer Mark Henshaw blogged about this topic. His argument raises some very interesting points, s..."
Indeed. Points 2 and 3 are quite contentious and the parts of his argument which, like you, I disagree with. From what I gathered from the tone, he's writing as if all spy/military thrillers which happen to have swearing saturate their dialogue with it. Something which is impossible to determine. But mainly, it's his argument that literary agents would reject manuscripts just because of swearing which I found most debatable. If that was the case, there would be no Mitch Rapp, Scott Harvath or Pike Logan. Almost the entire post 9/11 military/spy thriller genre wouldn't have been published if that was the case.
My personal opinion is that the world of post 9-11 thrillers is totally different than the more gentlemanly thrillers that paved the way.I think that if you are to be an honest story teller you have to capture the violence and savagery that soldiers see on the ground.
A perfect example is the furor surrounding the enhanced torture techniques. No one had any problems with these tactics after the towers fell, but with the new administration heading up a witch hunt, the men and women of the CIA are being presented as savages.
Mod
I think that if you are to be an honest story teller you ha..."
Indeed. the late Vince Flynn one had the analogy of a "sausage factory" feature in his book "Protect and Defend". Everyone wants the result, but some wish to be selectively oblivious to certain parts, namely how the result was acquired.
It could also be used to describe the stigma with swearing. Readers want a good story. But they would prefer not to have the parts which they aren't comfortable with, despite said parts reflecting reality, namely the language which is commonplace in the environments which the books are set in.
I believe you have to make a choice between authenticity and profitability
Joshua wrote: "I believe you have to make a choice between authenticity and profitability"
Then, I will take authenticity over profitability any time.
Then, I will take authenticity over profitability any time.
I struggle with his too, as I have a ton of F-bombs in my book. That said, from an authenticity perspective in the real world that I have worked in, I probably only add in only 1/5th of the F-bombs spoken in a similar day to day exchange.
I have to disagree with the quote in his first point. Use of profanity is not a sign of a weak mind. This also goes with a point stated by Ian above about profanity being more common among lower class or less educated individuals. I have a master's degree, am a licensed CPA, and work in a global company. I curse a lot - but only in appropriate venues. There have been studies done where people were able to tolerate more pain while repeating swear words vs. non-swear words.
I also disagree with the comments about the prevalence of swearing in the "real" world. Take a look sometime at the Amazon rankings for the swear word coloring books. There are two of these in the top 50 for all Amazon books.
That being said, no, every other word does not need to be a swear, but I would have a hard time believing that no one in a military/spy thriller says a single curse.
Like others have said, it depends on the genre and the characters. The Praetorian shooters are a very, very salty bunch, and since Jeff Stone is the narrator as well as the team leader, the narration gets just as salty.Jed Horn and his compatriots are fighting as much of a spiritual war as they are a physical one, so there's really none of what could be called swearing, aside from maybe an occasional "crap." It doesn't fit the way they think and act, even though their calling often leads them into very dangerous and violent situations.
The Orion Team.
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1) What is the main reason for the complaint about "bad language"? is it because authors have saturated the genre and dialogue with it? Or is it something else?
2) What is the best way to utilise it when writing a book in the genre? Use it sparingly, or not at all?
Love to hear you thoughts as always.