Crime, Mysteries & Thrillers discussion

This topic is about
Shutter Island
Archive - Group Reads
>
Shutter Island - September 2013

I have to disagree. And the only reason I disagree is Leonardo Dicaprio. Both his face and hi..."
Hello Beth V! I'm very glad to have you join us! Yes, I did recall that you are not exactly the president of Leonardo DiCaprio's fan club LOL! Unfortunately or fortunately, depending upon anyone's perspective, every time I think about the story now, I picture Leonardo DiCaprio in my mind. Some might say that one of the great advantages and wonderful aspects of reading books is that your own imagination fills in the pictures, rather than having the images determined for you. Who reads the Harry Potter books now and does not picture Daniel Radcliffe as Harry while they are reading?

I..."
Beth, I understand how you feel about re-reading. Despite the fact that I loved this book - it's one of my favorites thus far - I probably wouldn't have taken the time to re-read it had I not been leading this discussion this month. I wanted to make sure that I looked for details that we can explore in the discussion, and if a book is not really fresh in my mind (I had read many books since my first reading of it), I can easily lose a lot of those meaningful details.
There are no stupid statements in this discussion!! I just want to really explore and discuss the novel in depth, and I am hoping that others in this thread will join me. I don't even know if Mr. Lehane himself would tell us the exact correct way of understanding the novel. The fact that it is open to different interpretations, realities, and meanings is, for me, a very big part of what makes it a truly great book, and one that is certainly worthy of discussion!

SPOILER ALERT
@ Laura G - I completely agree with your conclusion as to the dream and what it may have represented. Water pouring from her belly...her children drowning, the shot that killed her fired by Teddy's hand, his tears. It's perfect. It also just occurred to me that it would have been practically impossible for Teddy to "recover" given the location of the hospital and the constant presence and sounds of vast amounts of water.

Excellent point, Heather! The extreme fear that Teddy has had of water since boyhood, coupled with his tragic associations with it (at least one of which we haven't yet discussed), would certainly, at the very least, prevent him from ever truly attempting escape. But could even the strongest swimmer ever actually escape Ashecliffe Hospital for the Criminally Insane? Well, maybe Diana Nyad, but that's some pretty freezing cold water surrounding Shutter Island. The novel takes place in late summer - hurricane season. Imagine what Shutter Island, and the water around it, would be like in January.

Knowing how twisted Teddy's reality is makes me question if Ashecliffe is actually on an island. He's created a whole world there already, why not a body of sea to surround. Maybe he has created a set of boundaries for himself.

Knowing how twisted Teddy's reality is makes me question if Ashecliffe is actually on an island. He's created a whole world there already, why not a body of sea to surround. Maybe he..."
I love observations that make me think about a book in a whole new way! I think your interpretation is a very interesting one, Susan.
The only reason why I believe the island is real, is because of the prologue - the May 3, 1993 journal entry of Dr. Lester Sheehan, which begins, "I haven't laid eyes on the island in several years." Dr Sheehan is writing the journal entry 39 years after the 4 fateful days that are at the heart of the novel. Assuming he was in his 30's or 40's in 1954, that would make him a man in his 70's or 80's. You do get a sense in the prologue that Dr. Sheehan's mind is beginning to go, so..........

Knowing how twisted Teddy's reality is makes me question if Ashecliffe is actually on an island. He's created a whole world there already, why not a body of sea to surround. Maybe he..."
Fascinating idea, Susan! Laura, I think you're right that it probably is actually an island, but now I'm wishing it wasn't! And, Laura, your point about Teddy's chance of escaping the island reminded me that I often pictured Alcatraz as I was reading - so, yes, if it is an actual island I think escaping would be near impossible!

Welcome to the discussion, Erin! Yes, Shutter Island - the novel - is incredibly atmospheric! I feel that the setting of the island also serves to emphasize that the patients at the hospital are the very most "damaged", dangerous, and violent, and must be isolated from the general populace to the most maximum degree.

I had no such problem as I feel actors must be judged on their performance & not on something as trivial as say accent or hairstyle which is often done.Furthermore this problem only occurs when you have already read the book first.As I watched the film fast I faced no such issues.At the end of the day IMO it is one of DiCaprio's best performance if not the very best itself.

This is a bit off-topic, but have you seen the film adaptation of Revolutionary Road, Aditya? It is an excellent film (albeit not a happy one), and both Leonardo and Kate Winslet give outstanding performances, in my humble opinion.

Hi Parinita! In answer to your question, the book has a lot more detail than the film, as is often the case with books that are made into movies. I guess it really comes down to just how much it will bother you that you already know the big "shockerooni" at the end of the story. We have been discussing details that are very specific to the book, so it may be a bit more difficult for you to participate, but I certainly welcome you to try. Or, you could read the book and catch up with us when you finish.

No I haven't seen it,I stay away from romances.I mainly prefer crime movies or thrillers.I think DiCaprio's performance in Shutter Island holds up very well to both Blood Diamond & The Departed (as far as I remember he got an Oscar nomination for both the movies). Undoubtedly IMO his best film is Inception.You watched any of those?

If you liked the movie you will like the book however as the movie follows the book pretty closely except a couple of plot points, the novelty as others mentioned would be lost.I loved the movie & then read the book & thought it was still perfect.So only read it if you had enjoyed the film.

Aditya, I personally wouldn't describe Revolutionary Road as a romance, but rather than hijack this Shutter Island thread to talk about it, if you are at all interested, you could look up the description of the book, written by Richard Yates, on Goodreads (though I must say that there is actually a lot more complexity to the story than the Goodreads description leads one to believe). No worries if it is not your cup of tea. Of the three films that you mentioned, I have only seen Inception, which I very much enjoyed! I speak about it a bit in post #20 of this thread.

Wonderful! We'll be very happy to have you join us!


Good point, Laura! I've had a busy week at work, so didn't have the book in front of me and had forgotten about the prologue. When stories get this twisted I'm always eager to find as many interpretations as possible.

Good point, Laura! I've had a busy week at w..."
I completely understand. I'm not sure if I would have remembered about the contents of the prologue if the book hadn't been so fresh in my mind (and if I hadn't had a copy nearby). It is fascinating to think that if Dennis Lehane had not included that prologue, the entire main setting of the book could have been called in to question for the reader.
An aspect of the whole - what is real - conundrum.

One of the things that kept constantly pestering me while I read it was who do you trust. Teddy grappled with this while getting to know his new partner and upon meeting various characters in the book. But I have to say that as a reader I felt the same issues. First the story is being told by a doctor whose memory is failing. Teddy had alcohol problems. He is meeting people who seem to be trying to cover up things. And finally we find out that Teddy is a patient. Is any of this story real or is it someone's dream? And who's dream is it?

On the subject of what is real and what is not...................
There is a scene in the novel that had me asking this very question, even after I finished the book (there may have been more than one scene, but this was one of the biggest question marks for me). It is the scene, in chapter 17, that takes place in the cave. Teddy meets a woman that he thinks may be Rachel Solando. I am of the mind that "Teddy" is hallucinating - that this woman is a product of his delusional mind.
What does everyone else think?


One of the things that kept constantly pestering m..."
SPOILER ALERT
Hi Donna! That is a great observation about feeling that tension and unease in never really knowing who you can trust in the novel. The first time that I read Shutter Island, I remember really beginning to not trust US Marshal Chuck Aule, probably right around the point in the novel when Teddy has his talk with George Noyce, specifically page 209 in the hard cover book. I wasn't sure what Chuck's motivations might be , but I was suspicious of him. I think we are absolutely meant to feel this way, as well as feeling very mistrustful of the doctors and the marshals. Well, not really knowing who we can trust, even after we finish the novel, which is one of the aspects that makes Shutter Island rather ingenious for me. It occurred to me that Teddy is really a variation on the idea of the unreliable narrator (or would that be Dr. Lester Sheehan?), which is a technique that I must say I love in mysteries and thrillers. It also struck me that we in MCT could never really have a "books that you loved with unreliable narrators" thread, because just in simply revealing that a book has an unreliable narrator, you would be giving away a major surprise of the book.
By the way, I just renewed the library copy of the book that I have been referencing for this discussion.

SPOILER ALERT
Hi Susan! I honestly still am not at all certain about that scene in the book. The first time that I read Shutter Island, I just assumed that the woman in the cave was real. But now that I've read the novel twice, I'm questioning that. The woman in the cave suggests to Teddy that the doctors have been drugging him, and that "it takes an average of three to four days for neuroleptic narcotics to reach workable levels in the bloodstream" (pg. 239). But then on pg. 284, when the whole role-play is being revealed to "Teddy" by Dr. Cawley, Dr. Cawley tells "Teddy" that he is going through withdrawal. If you believe that the role-play by Dr. Cawley and Dr. Sheehan is real, as is the way that I have chosen to interpret the novel, then it is possible that the woman could be a symptom of his withdrawal, an intensification of his paranoid schizophrenia. I suppose it is possible that she could have been part of the role-play, although I think it would have been very difficult for Dr. Cawley and Dr. Sheehan to predict that Teddy was going to think that a long narrow rock, covered in "thick black ropes of seaweed" was Chuck's body, and that Teddy was going to climb down the cliff, nor do I think they would have wanted to encourage him to do something so dangerous.

That's exactly how I would summarize this book, and it's why I didn't review it. I wasn't sure about anything.

I would have to read the book again to decide whether I agree.


Beth, I felt the exact same way as you. Then when I picked up my next book, I deliberately chose something of a lighter matter. But I really did like the novel because of how cleverly the reader was manipulated.
Sorry I am a little bit behind in the reading and discussion. I have been busy with school. From what I have read and study in other books water seems to have a calming and puritfing affect on people, but in Shutter Island it seems to have the opposite effect. I notice that Teddy mentions that he suffers from migraines, I get them as well. From reading everyone's comments I am excited to seed where the story goes.

Laura,
My impression was fear of water is a phobia which provided a hint into the character's mind, ie, psychological issues. It's one of the first tips that the character has his own unsolved issues. Great foreshadowing.


Did anyone pick up on the whole lot of water thing? Starts off with a hurricane, island surrounded by water, Teddy's children are drowned, his fear of water.....that's alot of water...and even the "dont drink the water" since it may be drugged thing?

I loved this book for lots of reasons, yet it made me feel in the end kind of stupid. I picked up on a lot of things, water included, but I couldn't decide on anything. I really should reread.

Welcome to the discussion, R.V.! I really have to credit Donna for introducing (in post #38) the possibility that our introduction to 8 year old Teddy on the boat, with his phobia of water, could have been a device of Mr. Lehane's to foreshadow Teddy's psychological "issues". At the end of that section of chapter one, Mr. Lehane writes, "It's the sea," his father said, a hand lightly rubbing Teddy's back as they leaned against the stern. "Some men take to it. Some men it takes."
And he'd looked at Teddy in such a way that Teddy knew which of those men he'd probably grow up to be."
The fact that the sea ultimately took his father from him, made all the more poignant by the fact that his father was hired onto the boat at the last minute when a crew member was injured, may have only served to exacerbate Teddy's phobia.

Hi Beth V! If I were to simplify this to an extreme degree, the way I interpreted the novel is that Dr. Jeremiah Naehring and the Warden represent "the bad guys", the ones who would be in favor of shock therapies and lobotomizing a patient, and Dr. Cawley and Dr. Sheehan represent "the good guys", the ones who would do everything in their power to avoid such measures.

Hi Agnes (BeaderBubbe)! I'm so glad that you loved the novel! Yes, water is something that recurs again and again throughout Shutter Island, and in many different forms. One reviewer that I saw online theorized that water symbolized reality for Teddy, and that fire, the opposite of water if you will, was representative in the novel of Teddy's insanity.

Hi Janessa! You mentioned Teddy's migraines in your post, and that reminded me of a discussion that Teddy and Trey Washington (one of the orderlies at the hospital) have that ties back to our discussion of water and its meaning in Shutter Island. On page 257 of the hardcover book Mr. Washington has just told Teddy that he thinks that a full moon makes people "crazy", and Teddy asks him why.
"Well (says Mr. Washington), you think about it - the moon affects the tide, right?"
"Sure."
"Has some sort of magnetic effect or something on water."
"I'll buy that."
"Human brain," Trey said, "is over fifty percent water."
"No kidding?"
"No kidding. You figure 'ol Mr. Moon can jerk the ocean around, think what it can do to the head."

We have been discussing water and the many ways that it is symbolic and meaningful in Shutter Island. I would like to introduce into the mix another topic for discussion.
Dennis Lehane published Shutter Island, which takes place in proximity to his beloved Boston, in 2003. And yet he chose to set most of his work of fiction 49 years in the past, in the year 1954.
Let us discuss the many reasons, some of them obvious, and some of them perhaps not as much so, for why Mr. Lehane would choose to have most of Shutter Island take place in 1954.

Darn, I have to reread the book.

Let us discuss the many reasons, some of them obvious, and some of them perhaps not as much so, for why Mr. Lehane would choose to have most of Shutter Island take place in 1954..."
There has been a major shift in the psych field over the past several decades. Many facilities and practices from that era were deemed inhumane.
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, which exposed a lot of the controversy of pysch wards, was written in 1962 (only 8 years after Shutter Island takes place).
I was wonder if the time that Shutter Island takes place in is also the same time criminology came about and institutions for the criminal insane were established?

Here's another way to think about the question for our Shutter Island readers:
Would the story of Shutter Island have worked had it been set in 2003, when the book was originally published? If not, why? And why would Mr. Lehane feel that that particular time in US history and International history, as it pertained to the United States, would be significant for the story that he wanted to tell?
I am wondering if Mr. Lehane is comparing the years 2003 and 1954. In 2003 it was only two after 9/11 and now a days with so many mass shootings. Then if you look at 1954, a decade before World War II had just ended, the Korean War was happening at this time and we would soon be heading in to Vietnam and the turmoil of the 60s. Yet at the same time the 50s were suppose to be when we were living the American dream, white picket fences, a dog, and 2.5 kids. But the key word to look at is dream not reality! I image that a morjority of people then and now are unable to live that type of life style. Maybe Mr. Lehane is trying to say that not much as change with in our society.

Maybe you're right, though, about Lehane comparing 1954 with the present (2003). I don't remember thinking that when I read it, so I think I might disagree.

First the fun tid bits: On the Waterfront won the best picture at the Academy Awards. Marlon Brando won the best actor in the same movie. Hemingway's Old Man at Sea received the Nobel prize in Literature. South Pacific closed Jan. 16 at the Majestic Theatre after 1928 performances.
On Feb. 28, the US began a series of nuclear tests on Bikini Island. In April, the televised Army-McCarthy hearing began. Nov. 12, Ellis Island (the immigration station in New York Harbour) was closed.
Weather wise: Aug. 30-Sept. 1 Hurricane Carol hit New England and Long Island. HC was the first named major storm. This was followed by Hurricane Edna and the ever famous Hurricane Hazel. HH struck the US and Canada in Oct. causing major damage and taking lives. My grandparents and parents told me stories about that storm.
And now for what's really interesting...In the mid 1950's the number of people institutionalized for mental illness peaked in Europe and America. According to PBS American Experience, in 1954 there were 150,000 institutionalized. In 1955, this jumped to 560,000. (I had to go back and double check the article. So if anyone knows better, please let me know.)
Needless to say, in the 1950's there was a public outcry about this. Possibly influenced by the treatment of soldiers. In 1954, chlorpromazine (also know as Thorazine in the US) was discovered as the first effective anti-psychotic drug which made it possible to care for the chronically mental ill outside of institutions. From then, a big push resulted to bring the institutionalized numbers down. The government even rewarded hospitals with money for reducing their numbers.



In terms of the time period, the fact that Teddy is a veteran of World War 2, and was exposed to some of the worst atrocities of that time, is critical to the story. Not just in the fact that this experience might have contributed to his instability, but also that his military training and experience, coupled with his US Marshal training, could make his potential for being violent and extremely dangerous, if unhinged, believable. Teddy starts drinking heavily when he returns from the war. He is also most likely suffering from PTSS. This might help to explain partly why he isn't capable of getting Dolores the help she needs, or refuses to see or believe that she needs help (and his children need help in the form of protection, too).
Also, I believe that the Cold War was in full swing at this time. Political tensions and distrust were very high, and the threat of nuclear war was ever present, which just contributes to the general feeling of paranoia in the novel, especially in Dolores and Teddy. What was mentioned about the upswing in the institutionalization of the chronically mentally ill in the mid-1950's just adds to the mystery of what is the real story in Shutter Island.
message 100:
by
Laura/Mystery in Minutes
(last edited Sep 25, 2013 08:08AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars

A lack of mobile phone technology was absolutely necessary to this particular story, to render the island cut-off and isolated from the mainland in the storm. Because Teddy, Chuck, and the Doctors, Nurses, Orderlies, Wardens, and anyone else that worked at the hospital didn't have cell phones (as they pretty much all would today, or in 2003), it was realistic and believable to Teddy, and to the reader, that in the storm Teddy would not be able to telephone Dr. Sheehan, or the Marshals in Boston, or call for transport off of the island, etc.
Even if smartphones weren't completely commonplace 10 years ago, as they are today, would this story have worked had there been computers in every Doctor's office and Nurse's station (at the very least), as there would have been in 2003?
It's been long enough since I read this that I forget too much to discuss what Lehane had going on with water. I think I remember that I did get it, but I wasn't sure I got it right.