Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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Is Satan an important part of Christianity?
I would guess that Satan is quite happy that he does not cross one's mind. As the master deceiver, he masks himself in a variety of ways but not as Satan, per se, and therein lies the trap.Why is there an equality of emphasis within the church? Well, I guess it depends on the church. I am sure there are churches where Satan is never mentioned. On the other hand, I am sure there are churches where he is overly emphasized. The bottom line, IMHO, is that we are engaged in a spiritual battle, and, if we fail to recognize the enemy and his weapons, how are we to engage that enemy and achieve victory if we'd rather not hear or think about him?
You're right, Calvin. He is always lurking around looking for a chink in the armor but since God is my armor I am not as concerned as I used to be.I feel that a pastors focus on hell and Satan takes up time from preaching on the power that God holds. I feel like the power of God easily should put Satan in his place in your mind. Maybe I've just been so comforted over the past few weeks that I haven't felt the need to really think about it.
I guess it was poor wording to to say that Satan hasn't crossed my mind, but I do feel I have not taken any significant time recently thinking about hell or Satan like I used to. I haven't felt any need to dwell on those topics for the past few weeks or months. I have absolutely no sense of time.
Good question David.I think if something is mentioned in the bible many times: then it's worth discussing in Church. (and here.)
We all know that Satan is mentioned throughout scripture.
So are angels, demons, miracles, violence, sexual abuse, love/mercy/grace. That is why i'm surprised so many Christians are thematically illiterate. Sure they claim to like Jesus/Heaven/forgiveness...but they really don't get the big picture. Because so much has been ignored.
Properly understanding Satan gives us strength and courage - as well as protection. I laugh everytime I hear Christians attempt to bind Satan and send him to the abyss. Satan is here for a reason - if God wanted him gone...he would be. But he has a job to do, and he does it very well. God's word says Satan's time will eventually be up.
I agree that there's not really a reason to dwell on Satan. Just understand him correctly and move on. But talking Donkeys: that requires some effort! :D
I think I've unintentionally made Satan and the flesh the same in my mind for whatever reason. Would Christianity be the same if Satan was never mentioned and all the evil was our fleshly desires?
That seems quite practical to me, David. It's hard for me to believe in a malevolent being roaming around trying to steal souls, so I depersonalize him to a sort of figure of speech to make the idea of a Devil relevant.(I prefer the term "Devil" in this case since it better describes today's concept of Satan's than any of the various phases of Satan in biblical times).
Yes, Lee, by all means lets keep things current and in the culture. Shall we drop God and just refer to him as "Big Daddy?"
Robert, I enjoy talking about the Bible's era more, but David's question was specifically about today's time. Would you rather discuss beliefs about Satan that were common in a different timeframe?I personally like the old Satan better ... the one who helped God out in His council by playing the assigned role of a tempter and nark. Funny how he's evolved into a sort of personification of everything evil.
Robert, that would be awesome and I think I could definitely get used to it. I saw a comment on Youtube a few days ago that referred to him as "Sky Daddy." Of course, it was being used in an insulting matter but I actually think it sounds cool.There you go, I was forced to say awesome and cool.
Lee, do you have any more information or possibly a book about that? I would like to look at that view since it sounds interesting.
Yeah, I have several in my library David, about how the idea of Satan evolved through scripture. When I get home I'll see what I can find.
I rather liked him in Damn Yankees as Mr. Applegate. I can still see Gwen Verdon (babe who sold her soul to become irresistable) crooning "Whatever Lola Wants Lola Gets" while Satan, Ray Walton, sneers "Isn't that routine getting a little old."
David, I was thinking of Jeffrey Burton Russell's work on Satan and the Devil. Or Alice Turner's The History of Hell though I can't remember if it talks much about Satan.http://www.dubiousdisciple.com/2010/1...
Or here's a strange one:
http://www.dubiousdisciple.com/2011/0...
There are lots of books that discuss the evolution of Satan, but fewer than I thought that stick to just that topic.
Thank you, Lee. I will have to add those to my reading list!
There was once a short story by Eric Siegall that told the tale of a runner who sold his soul to win the Boston Marathon. It was entitled Dr. Fastest.
God thought Satan was important enough to mention him many times. That should tell us something. To erase spiritual warfare to just our own selfish ambitions and pleasures is short-sighted. Basically toss away all Biblical prophecy and God's endgame plan.
But that is an interesting thought David
David thought:
" Would Christianity be the same if Satan was never mentioned and all the evil was our fleshly desires?"
Would we tempt ourselves and sustain evil throughout history without Satan and Demons? I say not specifically. Israel would most likely be ignored as a player of Prophecy - I think Satan sustains that as his main perk.
Of course if you do remove the spiritual players - you end up with theology and biblical views like Lee has. very man centered.
If we only did things to further our needs we would still steal, kill, and have sex all the time. Animals do these things and I don't think Satan tempts them. I think Satan's temptations would be more of doing things for the sole purpose of hurting others or just doing things for no real purpose. We've all lied about things for no reason at all.
I think Satan keeps evil going in a certain direction. Basic selfishness is not really the problem.
I also think Satan may be a big part of sustaining world religions. Would we really desire to be religious on our own? I'd rather think about sex & greed (and Ice Cream)than worshiping false deities.
And fantasy football. I worship Adrian Peterson.
I'm kinda into fallen angels myself - especially the statuesque variety.
Rod, I think that in a time before we thought we knew everything people wanted some sort of guidance. I think it comforted people to believe there was some higher power out there. Now, of course, we just worship ourselves. I feel like deep down we all know there is something more and we either embrace it through some religion or replace it with something else like self worship.
Definitely David. All I see is people worshiping themselves. I just wish they would stop doing it in Jesus' Church. :D
Me too, Rod. That's one reason I'm not in church currently.
Then get in a Church David. Make a difference of ONE. There are no perfect churches - I go to a church that is very Wesleyan influenced denominationally, and I really don't like Wesley or any of his attempts at theology.
Church makes me hateful, so I don't go.
You have bigger problems than church David.
Exactly, and I don't want to add to them by hanging out with insincere snakes when I could be home reading my Bible.
Sorry to be late to the conversation.Rod, I think I am pretty much with you on this one. Too many direct references to the evil "one" to relegate to just a principle or equate with the "flesh."
Lee, in spite of the above, your divine council reference has much truth (IMHO) and is often overlooked. Are you familiar with Heiser's work: http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBib...
David, while I don't advocate translating it as such due to the potential perception of disrespect, "Sky Daddy," has a number of connotative advantages over "Heavenly Father" when it comes to translating the Greek "patri ourani." These include the direct translation of the Greek word ourani which means sky (old English=heaven) and the intimacy Jesus would have used with "aba."
Also I would question if Church "makes" you hateful, or simply brings to the surface something already there. I know that is a common experience I find in myself.
Late also. Hope this is helpful.Regarding satan, what I've discovered is that much of our job here on planet earth, as sons of God, consists in undoing his work (like John says in I John 3:8).
God gave authority to humankind; humans handed their authority to satan (events described in Genesis 1 & 3). Satan is the god of this world (Paul calls him that in II Corin 4:4, Jesus in John 14:30) because we humans make him that. We humans do all sorts of evil things, but we empower the evil one whenever we do, so he entices us to do them. The evil one sows selfishness that causes relational breakups, and we obey. He sows lust that produces sex slavery and abuse, and we obey. He sows diseases that kill, and we accept them. He sows political power trips that produce economic disasters, deep poverty, wars, and oppression. He sows ruin, and God's earth is ruined, and so are we.
We who follow Christ are tasked with bringing God's rule to this world. We're invaders, overthrowing the dominion of the devil and replacing it with the kingdom of God ("Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth..." Also see Colossians 1:13) Satan is our adversary; much of what we have to learn, in order to be effective in our service to Christ, is how to recognize and overthrow satan's authority, so we can pillage his house and free his captives.
Wherever we do that, life breaks out. People get healed, relationships get solved, destructive habits get broken, phobias get unwound, lies get exposed and dismissed, righteous people get rewarded, wicked people get punished.
See how little this has to do with eternal damnation? This is about the ongoing task of the Church Militant.
Can we succeed in this without even acknowledging the devil's presence? Sometimes; but I've encountered lots of circumstances where it seems nothing really works until you explicitly tell satan to get the heck out of the way.
"We who follow Christ are tasked with bringing God's rule to this world. We're invaders, overthrowing the dominion of the devil and replacing it with the kingdom of God"Well said, and Amen!!!
(With the minor exception of the unintelligible Greek word.;-)
Christopher wrote: "(With the minor exception of the unintelligible Greek word.;-) "{snort}
Crud. I've been working at avoiding that mistake...
I confess--I still do it occasionally. :-(Old habits die hard.
I really liked the Hell, Fire and Brimstone church better than this "relationship with Jesus" twaddle. If I were granted an audience with Einstein for 30 minutes, I'd just sit and listen and absorb all I could. But the modern churchgoer believes if he's granted 30 minutes with Jesus, he doesn't sit and listen, in fact it's a one sided relationship. Jesus is supposed to listen to them gripe "if you had my life you'd sin too: my childhood was rotten, my relationships are a train wreck, and my career is in shambles, work some miracles for me." These phony Christians really do need a pitchfork in the butt and the liberal Chistian church deserves all the torment Satan can throw at them.
Hmmm, Robert my Bible doesn't seem to mention pitchforks, nor can I find reference to eternal torment being the act of the accuser. Any torment he manages to issue in this life seems to be directed against God's faithful servants. Are you casting liberals in that camp?Please rebuke me with verses from any translation you prefer. I confess I may have missed a reference that I am unfamiliar with.
It's Ok Christopher, if you want pitchfork in the Bible, I'm sure you won't hesitate to add it. Liberals manage to cast themselves without my help, but I'm sure Satan is licking his chops. Add chops while your at it.
I only want what the authors put in the Bible, nothing more, nothing less.
Robert seems to think that CHristopher is a theological liberal. I haven't seen any indication of that, myself.Robert, do you also see me as a theological liberal? Just curious...
Phil - theological liberal and liberal Christian are entirely different terminologies to me. Yes, I see Christopher as a theological liberal. No, Phil I don't see you as a liberal Christian. I really don't know enough about you gentlemen to comment further, but, of course, I will anyway.
So what's the difference between a theological liberal and a liberal Christian, in your view?
Robert, I will consider theological liberal as a promotion from antichrist. :-) Could you please define what you mean by the term? Most folks I know consider me TOO conservative because I accept the inerrancy of the N.T autographs.
Robert, I'm not sure, but for some reason I'm thinking you are Southern Baptist. Am I mistaken? Are you familiar with Adrian Rodgers?
Christopher wrote: "Robert, I'm not sure, but for some reason I'm thinking you are Southern Baptist. Am I mistaken?"I'm pretty sure I detected traces of Calvinism in one of our discussions, Chris. That pretty much rules out Southern Baptist. I'm thinking either Presbyterian or Evangelical Free, or something along those lines.
Phil, I'm being a little dense this evening. I'm not sure if you are refering to me, yourself or Robert. I actually have Calvinist leanings and used to be a TULIPer. Many Southern Baptists are as well, but usually manage to avoid the L and sometimes I in TULIP. Almost all Presbyterians (and all good ones;-)certainly are. My brother in the flesh (and spirit) is Reformed Baptist--they have all the petals.
Christopher wrote: "Phil, I'm being a little dense this evening. I'm not sure if you are refering to me, yourself or Robert. I actually have Calvinist leanings and used to be a TULIPer. Many Southern Baptists are as well..."I was talking about Robert, but I also did not realize there were Southern Baptists that grew TULIPS. I stand corrected.
Christopher - wasn't it just a week ago you wanted to censure me and now you want a blanket pardon? Sorry, you're still in the penalty box, pal. I'll address the theological liberalism bit tomorrow - THAT is going to take up a bit of space.
I can't imagine why my religious leanings would interest you, but here goes. El Paso, being quite Hispanic is heavily Catholic. Good Protestant churchs are few. Many of my friends are Army retired brass and we go to a Baptist church just off post that caters to the military and their families. It's loosely affiliated with Southern Baptist, but with "rounded" edges. Mostly we just try to provide a loving, Christian environment for war weary, broken youngsters still far from home even in the U.S,
Phil - your TULIP comment was priceless.
Robert, if by censure you mean encourage polite behavior you are correct. Having been in the penalty box most my life, I am quite content to remain until my king sees fit to release me.
Your religious leanings interest me because I am still seeking common ground with you, or at least to understand where you are coming from, so as to avoid unnecessarily offending you.
I am trying to follow the instruction of my king's ambassador: "If it be possible, as much as lies in you, live peaceably with all men.
And Phil, I too appreciated the TULIP comment. :-)
Try to understand... I spent the decade of the 1980s in Mobile, AL. There are thousands of Southern Baptists there, but they all grow azaleas.
I would like to focus more on the Satan issue than hell since we already have a bunch of topics on that.
I am close to finishing the Bible for the second time this year and I feel the more I read the less I think of hell and Satan. Actually, it occurred to me while reading another book today that mentioned Satan that I don't think he's even crossed my mind in a while. Why do churches insist on focusing equally on hell and heaven and God and Satan? I feel that takes away from showing the power of God. What do you guys think?