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6. THE METAPHYSICAL CLUB ~ July 29th - August 4th ~~ Part Two - Chapter Six ~ (117- 150) ~ Brazil ~No-Spoilers, please
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Message One - on each non spoiler thread - will help you find all of the information that you need for each week's reading.
For Week Six - for example, we are reading and discussing the following:
Week Six - July 29th - August 4th
Chapter Six
Brazil (117 - 150)
Please only discuss Chapter Six through page 150 on this thread. However from now on you can also discuss any of the pages that came before this week's reading - including anything in the Preface or Introduction or anything in Chapter One, Chapter Two, Chapter Three, Chapter Four and/or Chapter Five. However the main focus of this week's discussion is Chapter Six.
This is a non spoiler thread.
But we will have in this folder a whole bunch of spoiler threads dedicated to all of the pragmatists or other philosophers or philosophic movements which I will set up as we read along and on any of the additional spoiler threads - expansive discussions about each of the pragmatists/philosophers/philosophic movements can also take place on any of these respective threads. Spoiler threads are also clearly marked.
If you have any links, or ancillary information about anything dealing with the book itself feel free to add this to our Glossary thread.
If you have lists of books or any related books about the people discussed, or about the events or places discussed or any other ancillary information - please feel free to add all of this to the thread called - Bibliography.
If you would like to plan ahead and wonder what the syllabus is for the reading, please refer to the Table of Contents.
If you would like to write your review of the book and present your final thoughts because maybe you like to read ahead - the spoiler thread where you can do all of that is called Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts. You can also have expansive discussions there.
For all of the above - the links are always provided in message one.
Always go to message one of any thread to find out all of the important information you need.
Bentley will be moderating this book and Kathy will be the backup.
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Here are the rules and guidelines of the HBC:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Please on the non spoiler threads: a) Stick to material in the present week's reading.
Also, in terms of all of the threads for discussion here and on the HBC - please be civil.
We want our discussion to be interesting and fun.
Make sure to cite a book using the proper format.
You don't need to cite the Menand book, but if you bring another book into the conversation; please cite it accordingly as required.
Now we can begin week six....
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Chapter Six: Brazil
Part 2, Chapter 6 - Brazil, Section One
We will see James identify with Agassiz, which changes his course of study. He is excited to go on this expedition and work with Agassiz. He seems to idolize him, and wants to learn as much as possible from Agassiz.
The expedition was not purely research. It was biased in several areas. The agenda for the expedition was determined by Agassiz and the government. Agassiz was the perfect man to send; he was a charmer and could fulfill the government's need to woo the South Americans.
He also wanted to disprove one of his peers, Charles Darwin. We will see this research project swayed from the beginning because of this hypothesis.
Part 2, Chapter 6 - Brazil, Section Two
Agassiz is being pushed out of the field by the new thoughts in science.
He refuses to bend and refuses even to consider any theory but his own. Although many people still
believe in Agassiz, more and more are turning away.
Evolution and "natural selection" are taking the place of monogenism and polygenism. Those still in the old school are being left behind.
Part 2, Chapter 6 - Brazil, Section Three
We realize in this section that Agassiz is losing his battle.
The expedition truly yields nothing useful, at least nothing that can disprove Darwin. However, it does
prove that interbreeding can be done successfully, and intelligence is adaptable to the
new generations.
However, William James has concluded from this experience that the effects of race
and circumstances depend on the person's adaptability.
This is one of the first signs of the new way science will change social
thinking, and that James will be a part of it.
Part 2, Chapter 6 - Brazil, Section Four
William James' views and beliefs have finally begun to take shape.
We can see that he is ready to take the next step and introduce a new thought process to the world. It comes from the convictions he has decided are worth keeping. He does not change them, but will expand upon them to help create the idea of pragmatism.
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The Metaphysical Club
by John Shook
The Metaphysical Club was an informal discussion group of scholarly friends, close from their associations with Harvard University, that started in 1871 and continued until spring 1879.
This Club had two primary phases, distinguished from each other by the most active participants and the topics pursued.
The first phase of the Metaphysical Club lasted from 1871 until mid-1875, while the second phase existed from early 1876 until spring 1879. The dominant theme of first phase was pragmatism, while idealism dominated the second phase.
Pragmatism - First Phase:
The "pragmatist" first phase of the Metaphysical Club was organized by Charles Peirce (Harvard graduate and occasional lecturer), Chauncey Wright (Harvard graduate and occasional lecturer), and William James (Harvard graduate and instructor of physiology and psychology).
These three philosophers were then formulating recognizably pragmatist views. Other active members of the "Pragmatist" Metaphysical Club were two more Harvard graduates and local lawyers, Nicholas St. John Green and Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., who were also advocating pragmatic views of human conduct and law.
Idealist - Second Phase:
The "idealist" second phase of the Metaphysical Club was organized and led by idealists who showed no interest in pragmatism: Thomas Davidson (independent scholar), George Holmes Howison (professor of philosophy at nearby Massachusetts Institute of Technology), and James Elliot Cabot (Harvard graduate and Emerson scholar). There was some continuity between the two phases.
Although Peirce had departed in April 1875 for a year in Europe, and Wright died in September 1875, most of the original members from the first phase were available for a renewed second phase.
By January 1876 the "Idealist" Metaphysical Club (for James still was referring to a metaphysical club in a letter of 10 February 1876) was meeting regularly for discussions first on Hume, then proceeding through Kant and Hegel in succeeding years.
Besides Davidson, Howison, and Cabot, the most active members appear to be William James, Charles Carroll Everett (Harvard graduate and Dean of its Divinity School), George Herbert Palmer (Harvard graduate and professor of philosophy), and Francis Ellingwood Abbott (Harvard graduate and independent scholar).
Other occasional participants include Francis Bowen (Harvard graduate and professor of philosophy), Nicholas St. John Green, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., and G. Stanley Hall (Harvard graduate and psychologist).
The Metaphysical Club was a nine-year episode within a much broader pattern of informal philosophical discussion that occurred in the Boston area from the 1850s to the 1880s.
Chauncey Wright, renowned in town for his social demeanor and remarkable intelligence, had been a central participant in various philosophy clubs and study groups dating as early as his own college years at Harvard in the early 1850s.
Wright, Peirce, James, and Green were the most active members of the Metaphysical Club from its inception in 1871.
By mid-1875 the original Metaphysical Club was no longer functioning; James was the strongest connection between the first and second phases, helping Thomas Davidson to collect the members of the "Idealist" Metaphysical Club.
Link to the Hegel Club:
James also was a link to the next philosophical club, the "Hegel Club", which began in fall 1880 in connection with George Herbert Palmer's seminar on Hegel. By winter 1881 the Hegel Club had expanded to include several from the Metaphysical Club, including James, Cabot, Everett, Howison, Palmer, Abbott, Hall, and the newcomer William Torrey Harris who had taken up residence in Concord.
This Hegel Club was in many ways a continuation of the St. Louis Hegelian Society from the late 1850s and 1860s, as Harris, Howison, Davidson, and their Hegelian students had moved east.
The Concord Summer School of Philosophy (1879-1888), under the leadership of Amos Bronson Alcott and energized by the Hegelians, soon brought other young American scholars into the orbit of the Cambridge clubs, such as John Dewey.
The "Pragmatist" Metaphysical Club met on irregular occasions, probably fortnightly during the Club's most active period of fall 1871 to winter 1872, and they usually met in the home of Charles Pierce or William James in Cambridge.
This Club met for four years until mid-1875, when their diverse career demands, extended travels to Europe, and early deaths began to disperse them. The heart of the club was the close bonds between five very unusual thinkers on the American intellectual scene.
Chauncey Wright and Charles Sanders Peirce shared the same scientific interests and outlook, having adopted a positivistic and evolutionary stance, and their common love for philosophical discussion sparked the club's beginnings. Wright's old friend and lawyer Nicholas St. John Green was glad to be included, as was Peirce's good friend William James who had also gone down the road towards empiricism and evolutionism. William James brought along his best friend, the lawyer Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., who like Green was mounting a resistance to the legal formalism dominating that era. Green brought fellow lawyer Joseph Bangs Warner, and the group also invited two philosophers who had graduated with them from Harvard, Francis Ellingwood Abbott and John Fiske, who were both interested in evolution and metaphysics.
Other occasional members were Henry Ware Putnam, Francis Greenwood Peabody, and William Pepperell Montague.
Activities of the "Pragmatist" Metaphysical Club were recorded only by Peirce, William James, and William's brother Henry James, who all describe intense and productive debates on many philosophical problems.
Both Peirce and James recalled that the name of the club was the "Metaphysical" Club. Peirce suggests that the name indicated their determination to discuss deep scientific and metaphysical issues despite that era's prevailing positivism and agnosticism. A successful "Metaphysical Club" in London was also not unknown to them. Peirce later stated that the club witnessed the birth of the philosophy of pragmatism in 1871, which he elaborated (without using the term 'pragmatism' itself) in published articles in the late 1870s. His own role as the "father of pragmatism" should not obscure, in Peirce's view, the importance of Nicholas Green. Green should be recognized as pragmatism's "grandfather" because, in Peirce's words, Green had "often urged the importance of applying Alexander Bain's definition of belief as 'that upon which a man is prepared to act,' from which 'pragmatism is scarce more than a corollary'." Chauncey Wright also deserves considerable credit, for as both Peirce and James recall, it was Wright who demanded a phenomenalist and fallibilist empiricism as a vital alternative to rationalistic speculation.
The several lawyers in this club took great interest in evolution, empiricism, and Bain's pragmatic definition of belief.
They were also acquainted with James Stephen's A General View of the Criminal Law in England, which also pragmatically declared that people believe because they must act. At the time of the Metaphysical Club, Green and Holmes were primarily concerned with special problems in determining criminal states of mind and general problems of defining the nature of law in a culturally evolutionary way.
Both Green and Holmes made important advances in the theory of negligence which relied on a pragmatic approach to belief and established a "reasonable person" standard. Holmes went on to explore pragmatic definitions of law that look forward to future judicial consequences rather than to past legislative decisions.
(Source: http://www.pragmatism.org/research/me...)
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While reading the book - try to take some notes about the ideas presented along the following lines:
1. Science
2. Religion
3. Philosophy
4. Psychology
5. Sociology
6. Evolution
7. Pragmatism
There are very good reasons why this book is not only called The Metaphysical Club but also after the colon: A Story of Ideas in America and the purpose of our discussion of this book is "to discuss those ideas".
Don't just read my posts - but jump right in - the more you post and the more you contribute - the more you will get out of the conversation and the read.
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Remember we are discussing major ideas and events right off the bat:
Ideas:
Metaphysics
Pragmatism
Polygenism
The Metaphysical Club
Natural History
Monogenism
Theory of Recapitulation
Darwinism
Evolution
Natural Selection
Survival of the Fittest
Theory of Common Descent
Theism
Naturalism
Pluralism
Theory of Natural Selection
Events:
The American Civil War
Ice Age
People:
Louis Agassiz
William James - did not serve in Civil War
French Paleontologist, George Cuvier
Prussian Naturalist, Alexander von Humboldt
Elizabeth Cabot Cary
Samuel George Morton
George Gliddon
Josiah Nott
Abraham Lincoln
Samuel Gridley Howe
Charles William Eliot
Jeffries Wyman
Nathaniel Thayer
Samuel Ward
Tom Ward
Dom Pedro II
General Sherman
Charles Darwin (Darwinians)
Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (Lamarckians)
Herbert Spencer (Spencerians)
Alfred Russel Wallace
Thomas Malthus
Robert Chambers
Joseph Hooker
Asa Gray
Samuel Morton
Thomas Huxley
Sigmund Freud
Francis Bowen
John A. Lowell
Elizabeth Cary Agassiz
Ulysses S. Grant
Alonzo Potter (Episcopal Bishop of Pennsylvania)
Sarah Potter
Benjamin Peirce
Walter Hunnewell
Sr. Tavares Bastos
James Russell Lowell
Samuel Gridley Howe
Senhor Sinimbu
Charles Lyell
Alfred Wallace
George Ticknor and Anna Ticknor
Henry Adams
Goethe
Charles Eliot Norton
William Dean Howells
Charles Francis Adams
Alexander von Humboldt
Armand de Quatrefages
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr (referred to in this chapter as Wendell Holmes) - did serve in Civil War
Penrose Hallowell
Theodore Parker
Wendell Phillips
Wilky James (Garth Wilkinson James) - brother of William James - served in Civil War
Bob James (Robertson James) - brother of William James - also served in Civil War
Henry James Sr. (father of William, Wilky, Bob, Henry Jr, Alice)
August Saint-Gaudens
Robert Gould Shaw
Groups
The Thayer Expedition
Fifty-Fourth Massachusetts
Seventh New York Regiment
Second Massachusetts
Government:
The Constitution
Bill of Rights
Emancipation Proclamation
Places
Harvard
Lawrence Scientific School
Brazil
Rio De Janeiro
Malay Archipelago (distribution of butterflies)
Richmond, Virginia
Museum of Comparative Zoology in Cambridge
Amazon
Manaos
Xingu River
Fort Wagner
Boston Common
Things
Glaciers
Vocabulary
Manumission
Mestizos
Mulattoes
Mamelucos
Cafuzos (Peoples of Negro and Native Indian Parents) - Alexandrina
Cabocos
Montaria
Toldo
Varioloid (form of smallpox which James contracted)
Racial Amalgamation
Samoyede
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Chapter abstracts are short descriptions of events that occur in each chapter.
They highlight major plot events and detail the important relationships and characteristics of characters and objects.
The Chapter Abstracts that I will add can be used to review what you have read, and to prepare you for what you will read.
These highlights can be a reading guide or you can use them in your discussion to discuss any of these points. I add them so these bullet points can serve as a "refresher" or a stimulus for further discussion.
Here are a few:
New Abstracts:
* William James and Louis Agassiz met during a lecture series.
* William James signed up for an Agassiz expedition.
* Darwin's "Origin of Species" was published.
* Many believes that evolution was a tool used by God.
* Agassiz was completely against evolution.
* James constantly changed his opinion of Agassiz.
* Agassiz found that interbred races in Brazil were all considered equal.
* James believed that science and society were independent of each other.
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New Questions:
These are questions that you should be able to answer by the end of the chapter - integrating information from previous chapters with this one:
a). How did Dr. Samuel Cartwright help to integrate polygenism in the South?
b) Define Charles Darwin's idea of natural selection in conjunction with the theory of evolution
c) What did Agassiz want to prove about the fish that James caught while traveling in Brazil?
d) What did James think about the relationship between science and society?
e) What did the ups and downs of James' opinion of Agassiz say more about himself than about Agassiz?
f) What are your opinions of both men thus far: Louis Agassiz and William James?
g) Was William James suffering from guilt because he did not serve in the Civil War?
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a) "A great nation is not saved by war, it is saved by acts without external picturesqueness; by speaking, writing, voting reasonably; by smiting corruption swiftly; by good temper between parties; by the people knowing true men when they see them, and preferring them as leaders to rabid partisans or empty quacks. This is the behavior that monuments should honor.
(Part 2, Chapter 6 - Brazil, Section Four)
From William James, "Robert Gould Shaw" (1897), Essays in Religion and Morality, The Works of William James, 72-3
by
William Jamesb) "The war was just a part of the struggle for existence, a means by which the species moved ahead."
Part 2, Chapter 6, Section 4, pg. 143
c) "Its fitness was generally appreciated before its rightness was generally established"
Part 2, Chapter 6, Section 4, pg. 140
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At this point we can also discuss any aspect that came before in the Preface, Chapters One through Chapter Five since these pages were previously discussed in the non spoiler threads that came before.
THIS WAS AN EXTREMELY DENSE CHAPTER - BEST TO JUST PLOW THROUGH AND DISCUSS THOSE THINGS YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND AND/OR WANT TO DEBATE OR REVIEW YOUR UNDERSTANDING WITH THE GROUP.
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Robert Gould Shaw (October 10, 1837 – July 18, 1863) was an American military officer in the Union Army during the American Civil War. As Colonel, he commanded the all-black 54th Massachusetts Infantry Regiment, which entered the war in 1863. He was killed in the Second Battle of Fort Wagner, near Charleston, South Carolina.
He is the principal subject of the 1989 film Glory.
Rank: COLONEL - OCTOBER 10, 1837 – JULY 18, 1863
(Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G... and http://www.civilwar.org/education/his...
Aside from the fact that this book about how the ideas and changes that were occurring during this time period impacted so many things, at times it makes me extremely angry because of personal opinions influencing supposedly objective scientific fact.This expedition to Brazil was a battle ground for Agassiz in his attempt to disprove the theories of Darwin which were a threat to his own belief of polygenism.
The political lesson of polygenism was not that Caucasians had a right to oppress the members of other races. It was that the races had never been intended to interact at all. p. 226/1223 iReader eBook Ed.
It seems to be a battle between anthropology and biology. While you may be able to discern characters based on bone structure . . . you cannot interpret how an organism thinks or behaves. Agassiz seemed to be trying to justify this discrimination based on the similarities in bone structure and Biblical references.
Darwin's fundamental insight as a biologist was that among groups of sexually reproducing organisms, the variations are much more important than the similarities. p. 242/1223 iReader eBook Ed.
So one perhaps should deduce that survival of the species is better served by intermingling of "races" rather than segregation of them. As we have seen with the extinction of some species in the animal kingdom today . . . If biodiversity is not available . . . a species will eventually die off. So the ideal of "racial purity" is a self defeating plan in the goal of survival of the species.
These are some of my thoughts . . . more are coming.
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Agassiz's achilles heel was Darwin because that undermined everything he professed as HIS scientific and gospel truth and what he had been esteemed for - now he saw the possibility of being debunked and he could not stand that. He certainly felt like the rug was being pulled from underneath him. And I do not think that Agassiz was a bad man - but very misguided like most of the academics and scientists at that time.
I agree also that Agassiz is doing all of the above and on hair structure (smile).
What is this iRead eBook Ed you are quoting is that like a Cliff Notes (lol) or are those the pages of your eReader edition - I do not have a clue - just give the chapter and section if you are just quoting from an eReader - that would be close enough - I can't figure out the source????
Well everything is debatable about the survival of the species - will it be the species that is able to adapt quicker and mutate or the ones that have the ability to regenerate themselves in some way into a smarter and more sustainable being.
I am not sure that we have been challenged recently but you are right in that some segments of the animal kingdom have already been challenged in ages long ago.
How are we as a species going to adapt to adverse climactic change with super high temperatures or extreme weather conditions - that probably is out of our hands just like atmospheric and planet conditions caused the dinosaurs to become extinct.
If we look at dogs for example - some folks like purebreds but depending upon how they are bred they do have their weaknesses - some breeds more than others - when you have a mixed breed - more often than not - you have a stronger and more resilient dog - not that we could attribute that to humans.
Yes, keep the thoughts coming because these chapters are extremely dense and I want folks to jump in and to talk at length about what interested them in the chapter, set them off, aroused their juices, or set them on the path of metaphysical thought (smile) - Any of the above reasons is fine with me to get you guys posting.
What is this iRead eBook Ed you are quoting is that like a Cliff Notes (lol) or are those the pages of your eReader edition - I do not have a clue - just give the chapter and section if you are just quoting from an eReader - that would be close enough - I can't figure out the source????Hi Bentley . . . that is the actual page number from my eBook edition of the book I purchased from the iBookstore. Fortunately or unfortunately . . . eBook editions may have different pagination depending on which kind of device you are using for reading . . . and that is often different from the numbering used in the print edition. It's an actual quote from the book when I put it in italics and has nothing to do with Cliff Notes . . .
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Well I watched the video about Menand and had to agree with his own comparison that this book at times suggests it was written by someone with ADD because it jumps around so much between all the characters discussed in it. To me that makes it difficult to formulate a response . . . it's like sensory overload . . . My thoughts about the conclusion of this chapter would be in response to the following quote from Menand about W. James's understanding of the Civil War . . .
But if it is seen as the sum of many individual actions, the war was an event bristling with moral significance; for everything human beings do by intelligence rather than instinct, any course of conduct they choose when they might have chosen differently, is a moral action. chap. 6 part 4.
At this stage of my life I prefer to see it less of a moral action than a learning experience . . .
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So are you saying that the Civil War was not a moral action for those individuals who started it, fought in it and died for it. I think I agree with James or am leaning that way that the war was the sum of many individual actions. Was it bristling with moral significance - that seems a surprising attitude coming from James who did not fight in it; of course his brothers did - but why did they fight? They did not fight for any real moral reason; but to keep up the good name of the family - that this family did such things. At least that was Menand's point of view. I am not sure about the statement that everything human beings do - they do by intelligence versus by instinct - that is where I would disagree - any truly intelligent person would have avoided the conflict altogether as some well placed individuals who served Lincoln actually did with their sons. I do think that the choices one makes does show character or not and could be equated with morality.
When thinking about any war - one would hope it was a learning experience but sadly wars do not always seem to provide any lasting statement on the subject. But the individuals fighting these wars - usually they are involved for a variety of reasons and some believe I think that they are involved for moral reasons, or patriotic ones, or love of country versus being involved to learn anything from the war itself although they certainly do as in the case of Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
Great quote and I do hope that others join in to discuss their views of it.
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Note: In this chapter they are discussing The American Civil War
By definition war can be moral. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical. From this definition was the south right in its defense of slavery and the north wrong in its condemnation of slavery. I think so. So if this is true then the north had the moral obligation to condemn and abolish slavery at any cost. I think the war could have been avoided if there had been men of level heads in the south. Their rash action to secede and then form a government of states in Montgomery was really unnecessary until they knew for sure what Lincoln's actions would be. Slavery was the key issue in their secessionist movement but it was not the only reason by far. The issue of cotton and its sale and the profits the north were making was another reason for the acrimony between the two regions. I stray here and will get back to subject. The moral issue was clear cut and the south was in the wrong.
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Glory was really a very good movie and for the most part historically correct. Love the music and cinematography. Lots of great acting in this movie.
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I missed this one - will have to go see if I can find it to watch. What did you think of Robert Gould Shaw as portrayed in the movie - I am assuming Matthew Broderick played that role - I cannot picture him in that role because I keep thinking of him in Ferris Bueller's Day Off (smile)
Glory is without a doubt one of the most inspirational war movies you'll ever watch. And definitely one of the best movies made about the Civil War. As great as the ensemble acting (Broderick, Washington, Freeman, and Braugher in particular) and story-telling is, perhaps its most outstanding feature is its music score by James Horner.I have a friend of mine (a fellow HS history teacher) who used the Charging Fort Wagner part of the score as part of his wedding music. Even if you never see the movie (which all history buffs should do), you owe it to yourself to listen to the score (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IiUKo...)
I'm assuming you're being facetious about Denzel Washington winning the first of his two Academy Awards for the film (it might have been his breakthrough film role?)
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Thank you for the links. I like to watch documentaries - but do watch some of the more popular stuff too - and usually by the time I get to watch a movie at night - it is late and by then I favor something light and comedic - I have to travel a lot for business overseas so I miss these movies when they come out.
How was Broderick in his role of Robert Gould Shaw - interested because I still cannot picture him in that role - will have to watch this movie now that both you and Clayton have raved about it.
You seem to know a lot about movies - why did this film not win best picture - what film won it that year? It does sound like this film was one to see in the movie theaters with the best cinematography and best sound awards.
How accurate did you feel was Robert Gould Shaw's portrayal?
Thank you for the additional input on the movie.
I think Glory was (and is) an underrated film. When it came out in 1989, most of its stars and director were fairly unknown or better-known (as in Broderick's case) for offbeat comedic roles like Bueller or War Games. That year was a decent year for films with some war or other history movies (Born on the 4th of July, Henry V, My Left Foot) or films about relations between blacks and whites or coming-of-age relation between fathers and sons (Driving Miss Daisy, Dead Poets Society, Field of Dreams, Do the Right Thing) getting a bunch of nominations.Broderick's portrayal of Gould Shaw as the commander of the 54th Massachusetts is excellent. As the son of abolitionists, Shaw was heroic in his words and actions and Broderick captures that dynamic admirably in the film. For another great representation of Gould Shaw, one should view Augustus Saint-Gaudens 19th century bronze which stands opposite the Massachusetts State House - http://www.celebrateboston.com/sites/...
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Thank you for the link - I should have posted the image here on this thread.
Yes, a lot of those films you listed were good ones. It sounds like a year where there was a bumper crop.
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The Robert Gould Shaw Memorial - Augustus Saint - Gaudens bronze
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I bought this movie on DVD when it was first released . . . it's one of my favorites . . .
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Bentley . . . I bought this book before you ever selected it for discussion . . . it sounded interesting to me . . . always the armchair philosopher ;-)
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No, actually I was looking for other books about the Supreme Court and read the description of this one since it had info about OWH2 and wanted to read more about him. I don't have many books collecting dust . . . I was collecting books to read for retirement . . . and since I've joined HBC I've added about 250 more books to the TBR stack.
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Yes, I always wanted to read this book and when it was selected by the group for discussion - I thought great - a bit more on philosophy but I have to say that it has had more scientific discussions and mathematics so far versus philosophy but I am sure that we are going to get to that part starting with Chapter Nine.
How are you liking the book so far - is it what you expected?
It's been interesting so far . . . but I'm still waiting for all the threads to come together. I hadn't heard about some of the individuals discussed . . . so it's interesting to hear about thoughts that were floating around during that time. I'm listening to the audiobook OTHER POWERS which has info about the suffragette Victoria Woodhull which is providing me with another view of the era.I've managed to get 64/75 books read for my goal for this year . . . I might try for 100 books next year . . . I figure I have enough reading material to last for 4 - 5 yrs. if I don't add any more . . . ;-)
by Barbara Goldsmith no photo
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message 38:
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Missouri Fair clown draws criticism for Obama mask
State Fair ripped over Obama stunt - A performance in Missouri is described by critics as "disrespectful", "inappropriate", "sickening" and "disturbing". We are better than this.
MARIA SUDEKUM 13 hours ago
Barack Obama
KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) — A clown wearing a President Barack Obama mask appeared at a Missouri State Fair rodeo this weekend and the announcer asked the enthusiastic spectators if they wanted to see "Obama run down by a bull."
The antics led the state's second highest-ranking official, Lt. Gov. Peter Kinder, to denounce the performance in a tweet Sunday. He said it was "disrespectful" to the president.
"We are better than this," the Republican tweeted.
State Fair officials said the show in Sedalia was "inappropriate" and "does not reflect the opinions or standards" of the fair. "We strive to be a family friendly event and regret that Saturday's rodeo badly missed that mark," they said in a statement Sunday.
It wasn't clear if any action will be taken against the performers.
Perry Beam, who was among the spectators, said "everybody screamed" and "just went wild" as the announcer talked about having the bull run down the clown with the Obama mask.
"It was at that point I began to feel a sense of fear. It was that level of enthusiasm," Beam, a 48-year-old musician from Higginsville, said Sunday, referring to the reaction from the crowd that filled the fair's grandstand.
He said another clown ran up to the one wearing the Obama mask, pretended to tickle him and played with the lips on the mask. About 15 minutes into the performance, the masked clown had to leave after a bull got too close, Beam said.
Beam was at the rodeo with his wife and a student they were hosting from Taiwan. He said they were having a good time until the end of the rodeo.
"It was the usual until the very end at bull riding," he said. "As they were bringing the bulls into the chute and prepping them ... they bring out what looks like a dummy. The announcer says 'Here's our Obama dummy, or our dummy of Obama.
"They mentioned the president's name, I don't know, 100 times. It was sickening," Beam said. "It was feeling like some kind of Klan rally you'd see on TV."
Officials with the Missouri Rodeo Cowboy Association, the organization that coordinated the rodeo, did not return phone calls seeking comment Sunday.
After Beam and his family returned home, he posted a photo of the clown in the Obama mask on his Facebook page. The photo and the posting were then promoted online by a blog, Showmeprogress.com, which elicited a huge response Sunday on Twitter.
Scott Holste, spokesman for Missouri's Democratic Gov. Jay Nixon, said Sunday in an email that Nixon "agrees that the performance was disrespectful and offensive, and does not reflect the values of Missourians or the State Fair."
Beam, who grew up attending the State Fair and attends the fair just about every year, said he has never seen anything like the Obama mask display, which he felt was inappropriate for a state-sanctioned event that receives state funding.
"This isn't the Republican Missouri State Fair," Beam said. "It was cruel. It was disturbing. I'm still sick to my stomach over it. ... I'm standing here with a mixed-race family. My wife's from Taiwan, and so was the student (his family was hosting). I've never seen anything so blatantly racist in my life.
"If an old country boy picks up on something like that, imagine what a person of color would think."
Well I guess when all the "races" (a word I find offensive . . . there is only 1 - the HUMAN race) are finally intermingled with genetic material invisible to the human eye . . . then we will cease this behavior . . .
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This was interesting to some group members who saw the movie and they were able to make the connection to the book and vice versa.
And if they have not seen the movie (I was one of those folks) then of course they will be able to find the time to view it.
We do have ancillary material all of the time in discussions that is brought in to show associations with the past and current events. Sometimes we do not learn from history and we then see those events playing out in current times.
What I was showing with message 38 had nothing to do with anything political; we are discussing as a major portion of the book the attitudes and beliefs that folks had in the US about race, about African Americans and Indian races even in South America. What we are showing is that some of these beliefs and yes I guess "racism" are still with us today and we were showing the connection. This has quite a bit of relevance and we will introduce various articles, explanations, etc. which will help the reader and the discussion show the relevance not only to the ideas of America yesterday but also why we should learn from our history and maybe sometimes we aren't. Both were relevant and associated with the themes of the book.
Clayton, of course, you can also post on any element in this chapter that you would like to talk about. And there are quotes posted, an outline of the chapter, abstracts, and questions - please feel free to discuss any specific aspect of the chapter being discussed here. We have done a lot of work for the group and I hope that you take advantage of it.
You are not making anybody mad but I don't think it is called for considering everything is laid out for discussion and you only have to post. Ancillary material which ties in to the major themes of the chapter is allowed and welcomed. And if there are some things that you choose not to post about - then don't - but everything that is on the thread is relevant to the themes of the book and the ideas being presented about faulty thinking about the races, etc. Hopefully folks will learn from this; but like anything else some will not.
Also, if you would like clarification it is best to use the PM function and I will discuss this off line.
Clayton wrote: "I thought this was to be a discussion about the Metaphysical Club the book and not about racism in American today. I for one would like to get back to the book. I may be blind or stupid but I do no..."Hi Clayton,
Sorry I got carried away and veered off topic . . .
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If folks have not viewed this movie - try to get ahold of it.
This is an interesting side article on Shaw:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/...
Some wonderful history here to sift through - his papers are at Harvard - here is the link:
http://oasis.lib.harvard.edu/oasis/de...
Enjoy!
Glad you liked the movie . . . now I'll have to go dig up my copy and watch it again . . .
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Massachusetts 54th Regiment
Bentley wrote: "How many folks have seen the movie Glory where Robert Gould Shaw was the principal subject?"On my list of things to do this month.
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a) "A great nation is not saved by war, it is saved by acts without external picturesqueness; by speaking, writing, voting reasonably; by smiting corruption swiftly; by good temper between parties; by the people knowing true men when they see them, and preferring them as leaders to rabid partisans or empty quacks. This is the behavior that monuments should honor.(Part 2, Chapter 6 - Brazil, Section Four)
I thought this was a wonderful quote. And the picturesqueness of the momument (shown in post 28) is outstanding but still not what is important.
I lived in Louisiana for 29 years. In South Louisiana there has been a lot of genetic drift between the Europeans and Africans. It has been said that if you lined all the people in that area by any characteristic you normally associate with Africans or Europeans it would be impossible to draw a line that "clearly" marked the different groups. Yet families in this "indeterminate" group will get upset if you group them differently from their self-described group.
I thought it odd Agassiz used dogs of the pure type in one of his arguments. Since dogs of the pure type are a very highly selected and inbred sub-population yet still will breed freely with any other type of dog. They are a prime example of change under selective pressure.
Mod
Very interesting anecdotes. Thank you.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Other Powers: The Age of Suffrage, Spiritualism, and the Scandalous Victoria Woodhull (other topics)Essays in Religion and Morality (other topics)
The Metaphysical Club : A Story of Ideas in America (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Barbara Goldsmith (other topics)William James (other topics)
Louis Menand (other topics)
For the week of July 29th - August 4th, we are reading Chapter Six of The Metaphysical Club.
Our motto at The History Book Club is that it is never too late to begin a book. We are with you the entire way.
The sixth week's reading assignment is:
Week Six - July 29th - August 4th- Chapter Six
Brazil (117 - 150)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on June 26th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon and Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. Please also patronage your local book stores.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion. Assisting Moderator Kathy will be the back up.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Glossary - SPOILER THREAD
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Bibliography - SPOILER THREAD
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please. And please do not place long list of books on the discussion threads. Please add to the bibliography thread where we love to peruse all entries. Make sure you properly cite your additions to make it easier for all.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Table of Contents and Syllabus:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...