Outlander
discussion
Should I read the Outlander series?
Yes, I agree there are many characters that do steal your heart and some who you can't stand to a point of hating them as much as Jamie does. One of them being Jack Randall, I was glad when he did finally die. There are also characters that I do hope to hear about as I go on reading one being Jamie's nephew Ian. I keep wondering how he is doing living as Mohawk Indian now.
Margaret, I am not sure if you have read the full series including the end of Fiery Cross, A Breath of Snow and Ashes, and An Echo In The Bone, but things change dramatically for Young Ian, but in a good way mostly. Very interesting story line that I think you will like. I don't want to say too much and spoil the surprise.
Should you read "Outlander"? MOST DEFINITELY! I just finished reading it myself, and it is a truly magical experience. Diana Gabaldon has a way of transporting you to past eras that is unparalleled. At least I've never experienced it to this degree before, and I do read a lot of books. This is one of my alltime favourites. I loved the characters so much that I'm almost reluctant to pick up the next book in the series, just because I can't handle the thought of bad things happening to them (and you know they must, or it'd be a really boring sequel), and I just want them to be happy together.
As to your questions about whether Jamie rapes and hits Claire, the answers are no and yes. Rape does occur in the book, but Jamie is not behind it. BUT he DOES beat her up at one point. Personally I didn't care for that part of the story at all, and actually had a rather strong reaction to it. Threw the book across the room in disgust, with half a mind to not pick it up again (even though I had thoroughly enjoyed it till then), but luckily my bestie (who was also the one who'd recommended me the book) talked me down from the ledge and persuaded me to pick it up again (well, threatened is more like it, that it would mean the end of our friendship if I didn't ;-). And I'm really glad she did, because it really IS an amazing book. So DO read it, you won't regret it.
Christina wrote: "Should you read "Outlander"? MOST DEFINITELY! I just finished reading it myself, and it is a truly magical experience. Diana Gabaldon has a way of transporting you to past eras that is unparallel..."
Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you regarding Jamie "beating up" Claire. He does spank her with a belt after she risked the their lives and the lives of others. "beat up" implies that he used his fists or caused her great bodily harm. What he did was little different to what parents regularly did to discipline their kids just 50 years ago. I am not defending his actions but do not want them to be misconstrued as something far worse then what they actually were.
Jessica wrote: "Margaret, I am not sure if you have read the full series including the end of Fiery Cross, A Breath of Snow and Ashes, and An Echo In The Bone, but things change dramatically for Young Ian, but in ..."I read a lot, too. And there is nothing else like the Outlander series.
Jessica wrote: "Margaret, I am not sure if you have read the full series including the end of Fiery Cross, A Breath of Snow and Ashes, and An Echo In The Bone, but things change dramatically for Young Ian, but in ..."I am in the middle of the The Fiery Cross... And as with the 4 books before, I am loving the story. Claire is in the middle of trying to create Penicillin; which in fact a Scottish man named Sir Alexander Fleming developed penicillin (just a little tidbit). It was interesting though to find out that it was a Scott that developed penicillin. He also won the noble prize for it.
I have noticed a lot talk about the up coming series that Starz network is going to do on the Outlander. I do hope they do a good job on the the series. From what I read the series will not be out until the fall of 2014, and the next book in the series will be coming out this coming February 2014, I hope so I will be ready for the new book.
gertt wrote: "Christina wrote: "BUT he DOES beat her up at one point. Personally I didn't care for that part of the story at all, and actually had a rather strong reaction to it. Threw the book across the room i..." I hoped you picked up the book and read what happen, cause he does not beat Claire, he gives her a spanking, and it hurt him more than it hurt her ... And sometimes Claire does do some stupid things, like almost getting them both killed by the arsed Randall, which he saved her from.. He also promises her that he would never do it again... And keeps it... Well do tell if you picked it back up to read it and maybe you should start back where she is in Randall's office and Jamie comes to save her. Hopefully you do remember how and by whom he received his scares on his back.. Read on ....
Margaret wrote: "Oh, Yes, Yes, and Yes you should read the the Outlander Series it is one of the best series that I have read and am reading the 5th book in the series at this time. I also cannot wait for the serie..."....what you write reflects what I think and feel about this book. Often I go back to the various parties in this serie and I can not get enough. After a few years, I still find something new.:)
Margaret wrote: "gertt wrote: "Christina wrote: "BUT he DOES beat her up at one point. Personally I didn't care for that part of the story at all, and actually had a rather strong reaction to it. Threw the book acr..."I agree with your opinion ,but I want to add Jamie quickly realized that she did not understand at the time how dangerous live is at the time,he took action to realize her that she sometimes has to listen him .and it hurt him more than it hurt her.
Gertt, I couldn't have said it better myself! Very insightful and probably the most accurate description of the situation and the motivations of the characters.
gertt wrote: "I think it's important to remember this is the 1700's and spanking as punishment for children and women was accepted. In fact, Jamie took a spanking in Longhaire's place at the Castle because he ha..."No, Jamie fell in love with Claire from the first moment he meet her. He told her that he fell in love with her on the way to the Castle, Claire rode with Jamie on his horse and he was wounded, she dress his wound and set his arm and they was attack and though that all the blood on his shirt was him and she was yelling at him... also when she broke down realizing she really was not in 1945 any longer.
Jamie was in love with Claire when they married each other. Claire cared for Jamie but she still though of getting back home to Frank...
Really it's a moot point whether he loved* her or not at the time of the beating. And I say beating, because he and she BOTH refer to it as such, it was NOT a spanking. People seem to like to sugar coat this, but it was an out right beating with a sword belt of 12 or more strokes on her bare rear-end. That is NOT in anyway a spanking.As Gertt mentions Jamie explains had she been a man she would have had her ears cropped, been flogged or even possibly killed for doing something so incredibly stupid that could have cost many lives. Jamie had to create justice for the men who risked their lives over her foolishness. She failed to listen to the "chain of command" so to speak. Jamie did not punish her for fear anyone else would, he did so because he needed to. For her sake, as well as for the men's.
Clare had to realize that even though she does not see the "reasons" behind the request, or the direct order, not obeying them has severe consequences. As it was, the danger she put everyone in, it all turned out okay (from their end), except that Jamie had to kill someone. So someone did die, just not in their group.
The reasons he beats her are 2 fold. One, so that she realizes from now on her not listening will have severe consequences and also for justice with regards to the men. Had Jamie not followed through I don't believe anyone else would have dared touch her. You don't touch another man's wife in that way, not even back then. But she probably would have been ostracized by the men and when they got home, their wives probably would have ignored her too.
Justice had to be met and in this time period and culture, justice was received.
What I thought was ridiculous was that Jamie gives up his right to beat her in the future. That seems far fetched to me. Especially when he admits he gave her the beating so she would realize there are consequences to her actions, he then gets rid of the future consequence. Stupid if you ask me.
*Jamie tells Clare he loved her from the moment she sat on his lap and cried in the castle at the first day/night they met. He tells her this while they're at Lollybroch.
I guess one can look at it as a beating or as a spanking, it is how you view the difference of the two. I did not have any a problem with what he had to do (beating or spanking) but he had to do it not only for his honor but for her honor also. If he didn't the men who had not acknowledge her and would not respect Jamie at all.
Now, we do need to take consideration of the time she was from 1945 he is from 1742, (not to say back in 45 was so much better for a women, but better than in the 18th century) can you imagine being today's woman and traveling to the 18 century, my goodness they wouldn't know what think of us...let alone how to deal with us.
Actually, there is some humor in the part, I had thought, by Claire's shock of having to get a beating and my Jamie's sorrow for having to do it.
After the beating the men treated her with respect again, before the beating they didn't notice her any more. Also, he did the right thing my promising her that he would not ever beat her again, and that is because he loved her and he knew what it felt to be beaten and didn't want to be the one to cause her that kind of pain again.
Honestly, the beating (it's too violent to be called a spanking, IMO) made me totally hate Jamie. He really seemed to get off on it, which I found kind of disturbing. However, I really liked the book otherwise, so I decided to pretend it didn't happen. That way I could like Jamie again, because what's the point of reading these books if you don't like Jamie and Claire?They even discuss it again years later (in A Breath of Snow and Ashes, I think) and I kept wishing Claire would just tell Jamie to STFU.
Mrsbooks, I have to strongly disagree with you. I have personal experience with being beat an with a spanking by belt. What Jamie did was NOT a beating!!!
The writer refers to it as a beating as well as Jamie and Clare. A spanking is not 12 (at least) lashings with a sword belt. Spankings, although for many, are a "tabooish" sort of punishment from a parent to a child, do not leave the 'spanked' unable to sit properly for days (or find it very painful afterwards to do so).
There are also many different ways for a person to be "beat" up. The definition of a beating is a "punishment or assault in which the victim is hit repeatedly." Most of us when we hear the word "beating" think of fists but that isn't necessary for the definition.
Personally the beating was one of my favorite moments in the book. It's interesting though how a time period can really change a persons perspective. Had Jamie been a modern man I probably would have burned the book and been disgusted with the writer to make a hero do that to the heroine. But it works for that culture/time period/their situation.
I classify the Outlander series as a guilty pleasure. While reading I kept chastizing myself because there are so many other higher caliber works worth my time. Guess I'm just not into the romance/fantasy genre.
ღ.Shilan.ღ wrote: "I've only read the first book and I wish I could unread it somehow ... so that's a big fat NO."AGREE !!!
Red wrote: "Honestly, the beating (it's too violent to be called a spanking, IMO) made me totally hate Jamie. He really seemed to get off on it, which I found kind of disturbing. However, I really liked the ..."You have to be kidding me... Hating Jamie after he risk his own life and the life of his men to save her from Jack Randall who would have done a lot worse to her even though he wasn't able to get up for a woman.
And if she would have listened the beating would not of taken place in the first place. Maybe you should reread that part again as to why it happen in the first place. And the beating or spanking only felt Claire with a sore bottom, no bruises on her face or any other part of her body, nor was she bleeding any where on her body.
I don't know why it is such a big issue ... Jamie did not do it for pleasure by any means, he did it for the honor and to save her honor with the men that were involved in saving her life. It was disrespectful for her not to listen to what Jamie had asked her to do and that was to stay put..
I would think that the issue would be more on the nasty Jack Randall throwing her out to be eaten by the wolves and torturing Jamie has he did..
Margaret wrote: "Red wrote: "Honestly, the beating (it's too violent to be called a spanking, IMO) made me totally hate Jamie. He really seemed to get off on it, which I found kind of disturbing. However, I reall..."I think he got plenty of "pleasure" from it, he even admits it! But I don't agree with the way he handled it and you do. We can agree to disagree :)
*spoiler* (Don't remember how to hide it lol) When they first marry, on their wedding night Clare asks him why he married her. He tells her he will tell her one reason now and the other in the future. The reason now is because "he wanted her."
Then when they're in Lollybroch sometime later, after she makes the decision to stay instead of return to Frank he tells her the other reason which was that he was in love with her and was from the time she sat on his lap and cried in his arms (the first day/night they met.)
Which as I said is sort of a moot point anyway. I don't see what difference it makes whether he loved her or not at the time of the "beating."
gertt wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Jamie was in love with Claire when they married each other. Claire cared for Jamie but she still though of getting back home to Frank...
..."
They didn't get married because they..."
gertt wrote: "Well last night I decided to reread the spanking/beating scene...picked the book up about 8....next thing it was 12. The wonderful thing about about this series is the way you get caught up with t..."That sounds about right. If I am reading something else I cannot pick up any of the books because otherwise I would never read anything non-Outlandish.
gertt wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Jamie was in love with Claire when they married each other. Claire cared for Jamie but she still though of getting back home to Frank... ..."
They didn't get married because they..."
Jamie agreed to marry Claire cause he was already in love with her and wanted her. As Mrs. Book states he wanted her and later when she stays with him that he was in loved with her ... Mrs. Book is right!!!!
Please! Please! Someone tell me where in the book that it states that Jamie liked, got off, on giving Claire her beating, spanking, or lets as say lashing... Because, I do not recall reading it at all... If he liked it so much I do not believe who would of promised her that he would never do it again.
gertt wrote: "Well last night I decided to reread the spanking/beating scene...picked the book up about 8....next thing it was 12. The wonderful thing about about this series is the way you get caught up with t..."I agree... and since you were rereading the part of beating (that some many are so up-set over) Did Jamie liked doing it????
Just before the beating...Clare "You barbarian! You sadist! You're doing this for your own pleasure! I'll never forgive you for this!"
Jamie "I dinna know what's a sadist. And if I forgive you this afternoon, I reckon you'll forgive me, too, as soon as ye can sit down again. As for my pleasure.....I said I would have to punish you. I did not say I wasna going to enjoy it."
Once they've had a long talk about the whole thing couple days later:
Jamie "Do you know....I mean, can ye understand, maybe, why I thought it needful to beat you?"
Clare "I understand. And so far as that goes, I forgive you. What I can't forgive....is that you enjoyed it!"
"Enjoyed it! Sassenach, you don't know just how much I enjoyed it. You were so...God, you looked lovely. I was so angry, and you fought me so fierce. I hated to hurt you, but I wanted to do it at the same time....Jesus, Yes. Yes, I did enjoy it. Though come to that, you might give me some credit for exercising restraint."
Clare "Restraing, was it? I was under the impression that what you were exercising was your good left arm. You almost crippled me, you arrogant Scottish bastard!"
Jamie "Did I want to cripple ye, Sassenach, you'd know it. I meant afterward. I slept on the floor, if ye recall."
Clare "Oh, so that was restraint, was it?"
Jamie "Well, I dina think it right to roger you in that state, however fierce I wanted to. And I did want to. Terrible strain on my natural instincts."
Clare "Roger me?"
Jamie "I would hardly call it 'love-making' under the circumstances, would you?"
Margaret wrote: "Please! Please! Someone tell me where in the book that it states that Jamie liked, got off, on giving Claire her beating, spanking, or lets as say lashing... Because, I do not recall reading it at ..."
I'm wondering if the maker of this thread has read the book or decided against it?Enirak65 wrote: "Hello,
I've read that the Outlander series is amazing and one of the best romance books out there, but I've also read that the hero hits and rapes the heroine, which makes me reluctant to read it....."
This is a great series, the best I've ever read. Can't wait for the TV series to begin. I've read all of them twice in 3 years, loved 'em that much! Do yourself a favor and join the club of hooked fans!
How excited are you about them revealing Claire? I think she's perfection!!!!!
Mrsbooks wrote: "I'm wondering if the maker of this thread has read the book or decided against it?Enirak65 wrote: "Hello,
I've read that the Outlander series is amazing and one of the best romance books out ther..."
I know that she has not read the book yet but plans to soon. I got free copies of Outlander and sent one to her.
Jessica wrote: "I am not sure who you have been talking to but firstly the hero doesn't hit and rape the heroine. the hero does get raped but by a bad guy and the heroine helps him through it. The hero (lets just ..."Dude, what book did you read? He rapes her. She says no, several times, he doesn't care. Oh, but don't worry, because eventually she enjoys it, making a mockery of the question of female consent. Oh, and yes, he DOES abuse her. He beats her and readily admits to enjoying it.
I hated the heroine, Claire. She spends all of her time messing up and needing to be rescued. The women in this book are cowed and boring.
One of my all time favorite series. My all time favorite leading man. Fantastic writing. Details galore. Epic. Heartfelt. But... if the idea of rape bothers you, don't read this series. Several characters end up raped at some point. Remember, this takes place in 1700's and spans many many years. The rape, or any of the brutality, is not central to the plot, but important... and honest... and done well. All of the trials and tribulations are handled with care because you LOVE the characters so much. And no, there is no one that you hate and then love - you just like who you are supposed to like and hate who you are supposed to hate. She's not playing mind games with this book.
It's a fantastic series, but a commitment. She is not shy about words. These are 800-1200 page novels. There is a reason they are wildly popular and why they are bestsellers and why we fans are crazy about the upcoming STARZ show - because it's just that good.
It's so thrilling how popular the series is before the actual premier of the first episode on Starz. I love this series. I never got to read the last two books because of school and I'm doing a reread of Outlander before the premier but I think everyone should get into this series. it's the best. No arguments.
Mandyo wrote: "Jessica wrote: "I am not sure who you have been talking to but firstly the hero doesn't hit and rape the heroine. the hero does get raped but by a bad guy and the heroine helps him through it. The ..."Here is the scene in question.
(view spoiler)
Nowhere in the book does Claire feel like she's been raped by Jamie. Did Claire ask Jamie to stop because it hurt? Yes she did, if you read it, it sounds like she felt so good it was hurting (not an uncommon thing). Claire did not "eventually" enjoy it, she enjoyed it through the whole thing, including the pain. She gave as good as she got and the writer made Claire "like" her and Jamie's rough sex fest ALL the way through.
I will give you though, that it doesn't matter if she enjoyed it all the way through, if she asked him to stop he should have. Having said that if Claire had really wanted him to stop, her reaction would have been very different EVEN if she was enjoying it. Claires lack of reaction in every way possible (including afterwards) shows it wasn't rape to her.
Not everyone would feel the same in every situation and that could easily have been rape.
I don't relate to every character I read. Sometimes I think "what they heck, how could they possibly feel that way!" But its fiction and we're all different. At the end of the day everyone has their own personal views, thoughts, opinions, and yes, kinks too.
I don't know why people are making this big deal about the kind of sex that Claire and Jamie have. He's not a rapist.If anyone should be called a rapist it's Jack Randall and not even so much because Jamie made a deal with him to give up the bootay *spoiler alert* The entire book/series is not about Jamie and Claire having sex or Jamie spanking Claire or him being possessive or whatever. It's more than that. Get over it. Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ!
Yes - read it...I loved it!
Jewell wrote: "It's so thrilling how popular the series is before the actual premier of the first episode on Starz. I love this series. I never got to read the last two books because of school and I'm doing a rer..."That's too bad Jewell, because the last two were my favorites of the series (with the exception of book one, of course!). Hopefully you can find the time. They are so worth it.
gertt wrote: "Michelle wrote: "One of my all time favorite series. My all time favorite leading man. Fantastic writing. Details galore. Epic. Heartfelt. But... if the idea of rape bothers you, don't read this ..."
One big thing I can't relate with Claire, is how fast she got over Jamie beating/spanking her. But you know, when you really think about it, its a huge sign of strength of character that she was able to do exactly that.
If I put myself in her shoes, I can understand the times, the culture and I get why she didn't specifically fight that since its impossible. She adapted quickly. More quickly than I ever could.
If it had have been me, my pride would have stood in my way. I would have went on and on and on and on, I'd have whined, hollered, fought, etc, continually afterwards. And it would have got me NOWHERE lol. Well, nowhere beyond requiring the reputation of being a spoiled harpy bitch.
It takes a lot of strength to let your pride go.
Please...please...please stop calling the book a 'romance' novel!! The reason the book was labeled as romance, against Diana Gabaldon's intentions, was because the publisher thought they would sell a lot more books! The book may be better described as historical fiction. It contains not only history, but science fiction (time travel), battles, violence, death, intrigue, adventure, erotic scenes between husband and wife who fall in love.
I agree with everyone says this is NOT a romance series. Way too many areas are covered for this to simply be a romance.
I read the first book and it seemed like romance adventure more than historical fiction to me. While I did not care for it, I have decided to give book 2 a try and the previews for the starz series looks intriguing.
I read the seven books and always thoroughly recommend the readers to read the Outlander saga, because it's a very good story about the experiences of a woman who is mysteriously transported to Scotland in the eighteenth century and also fell in love. It's a saga that spans many genres, from science fiction, the historical genre and a little romance. Maybe many see it as a romantic book, but I think it's much more than a love story. I think it's like life itself with many sides and Claire is an example of women who are strong but vulnerable at the same time, she's not only survive, she live, they love and facing trials life gives us. Read the Outlander saga is old as life itself with good characters well described.
gertt wrote: "Natàilia wrote: "I read the seven books and always thoroughly recommend the readers to read the Outlander saga, because it's a very good story about the experiences of a woman who is mysteriously t..."Thank you very much :)
Read it! Especially the first book it's the best :)
Gordon wrote: "No one has mentioned listening to these novels -- the reader is absolutely awesome. Her voice for each character is perfect. Her Scottish accent and English accent helped make you feel you where ..."I had a hard time getting through Outlander until I listened to it. The narration is fantastic! It changed the book for me completely.
Yes, It is a wonderful love story spanning two completely different lifetimes and the historical events are depicted in a spectacular way.Have never seen them in audiobooks. i was able to obtain most from the local library digitally.
MaryJane wrote: "Yes, It is a wonderful love story spanning two completely different lifetimes and the historical events are depicted in a spectacular way.Have never seen them in audiobooks. i was able to obtain mo..."I listened to the audiobooks, narrated by Davina Porter, who has done a magnificent job of reading them. I also have them in paper, and some of them on my kindle, so if I need a quick fix, I can easily access them. But I always borrowed the books from my library.
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Diana Gabaldon is an excellent writer, she is very descriptive about the time, the places, the way people lived during the 18th century. Her leading characters are Jamie and Claire, who you would love and also love the love they have for each other.
I have travel through Scotland, a little of England, to Jamaica, Paris, and now I'm in America along with Jamie and Claire. Along with the traveling you also learn historian facts of the 18th century.
You will cry, laugh, get angry, feel the hurt, and love for both Jamie and Claire. It a love between them that we can only hope to ever find,she stands by him and he stands by her which is a little difficult being that Claire comes from the 20th century.