Karen Chance Fans discussion
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Theories, Hypotheses and Conspiracies
Hmm, a lot of these theories seem to feature Marlowe... I wonder why... LMFAO!!
Well you forgot the big one: Who is Cassie's HEA? Mircea? Pritkin? Both?
Josie, lol that's entirely coincidental!Zeenat, shoot, yes, I'll edit my post and add it in. Hmmm I wonder if I can work Marlowe in here somehow too LMAO!
LOL Marlowe and Cassie!?!? I think he finds her too amusing, like a child.
Mod
KC can always change her mind, but at one point this was posted publicly.
Well, it's theoretically possible (though highly unlikely) that Rosier doesn't know he has another child, and KC wouldn't want to give away future plots by admitting it. After all, Claire's father had no idea he had a daughter, so there is precedent. And perhaps a goddess wouldn't have the fertility problems that a demon or human might? Or perhaps we're desperately clutching at straws!! :DI consider Rosier as Cassie's father to be extreeeeemly unlikely, but crackpot theories are funny.
ROFL nice thread Lannister. Now I'm liking Rosier, a Goddess and a secret love child after all, Mircea has one. Do we even have one line in a text somewhere to support the Rosier theory?Oo Oo how about the Irin child being a secret product of Rosier's profligacy, aided by his new beauty regime. Can the Irin and incubi mix?
I don't think there is a single line of text to support the idea that Rosier has another child. There is only my torrid imagination!! (And, conversely, there's plenty of text ruling it out). But why let mere facts get in the way of a good crackpot theory??Wow, I love the idea the the Irin child could be Rosier's! I don't see why they couldn't mate, since incubi can exchange energy with anyone. I suppose, technically, the Irin are fallen angels, rather than demons, but pooh! Let's not stress over details!
I've read in one of the Q&A (I don't remember which one, sorry) that was asking if Rosier has other children, and the answer was that yes he has other children than Pritkin, but not as many as do the other incubi have. So we can assume that he is the father of who ever we want! LOL!
My personal preference is the Dory/Asshat theory. He seems attractive, in a slightly homicidal way. Are we including Scar Face in our theory?
I am LOVING these crazy theories! LOL I'd like to add one:
Rosier wants a grandchild from Cassie, or demon/real sex as the term of Pritkin's release.
The first is SUPER unlikely! LOL - I don't see KC making Cassie pregnant in book six - but Hey! crackpot theories! And the second's slightly more plausible. Though really, I'm sure it will be something else, like Artemis' help, or striking a bargain.
This inspired me, so I think I'll head over to the two sentence fic thread...
Kat wrote: "I am LOVING these crazy theories! LOL I'd like to add one:
Rosier wants a grandchild from Cassie, or demon/real sex as the term of Pritkin's release.
The first is SUPER unlikely! LOL - I don't ..."
Hey, the bargain itself could be a promise for a grandchild, like Cassie made with Dark Fey King to give him the Codex.
On another thought, how Cassie could get the paperweight:
She takes it with her, not out of time, just in another place in that year, somewhere hidden, like bury it in a forest. Then, all she has to do is shift to the year she's in, and dig it out.
But isn't that the equivalent of taking it out of time? She might not have removed it from that year, but she's still altered the time line. Whatever decisions Tony made based on possession of that paperweight would be changed.
Unless that's what is supposed to happen all along right? We never know about these things...
This is why time travel to the past isn't possible in real life. Goddamn paradoxes.
Missdevora wrote: "I've read in one of the Q&A (I don't remember which one, sorry) that was asking if Rosier has other children, and the answer was that yes he has other children than Pritkin, but not as many as do t..."Missdevora, you got me curious, so I did some googling and found this. From Q & A 38:
Question 3: Is Rian the “daughter” of Rosier? Does Pritkin think of Rian as his half-sister?The wording here could be open to interpretation. When KC says "fewer children", does she mean he has only has one, i.e. Pritkin? Or does she mean Pritkin is his only human child but he has demon offspring? Enjee commented above that KC said in her old forum that Pritkin had no siblings, but maybe she specifically meant human siblings? How would everyone else read this answer?
No, all incubi can reproduce and Rosier is hardly the only one doing so. Besides, for centuries he put most of his time into gaining himself a human child, so he actually has fewer children than some others of his kind.
Claire wrote: "My personal preference is the Dory/Asshat theory. He seems attractive, in a slightly homicidal way. Are we including Scar Face in our theory?"Oh yes, I'd forgotten about Scarface! Nice one. I'll add him to the list.
I rather like Asshat too. He's only homicidal to the people he doesn't like LOL! And he does what his mummy tells him, so he can't be all bad.
Kat wrote: "I am LOVING these crazy theories! LOL I'd like to add one:
Rosier wants a grandchild from Cassie, or demon/real sex as the term of Pritkin's release.
The first is SUPER unlikely! LOL - I don't ..."
Will add this to the list!
@Lannister I'm 99.9% positive that KC meant Rosier only has other demon offspring. If he had other viable human-ish children, why would he waste his time with someone as contrary as Pritkin?
I wasn't sure if Rosier had any other children at all, whether demon or human. But KC's comment is confusing. So do you think we might meet Pritkin's half brother or sister at some point? That would be kinda cool actually. Maybe he works at that spa at Dante's and sexes up women all day long, i.e. he's the diametric opposite of Pritkin!
I get the feeling that Rosier is unfathomably ancient. There are probably other demons that his liaisons have spawned. The difference being that demon children probably aren't ever "children" in any we know. And I highly doubt that Pritkin would admit to being related to any other demon.
Here is my latest crazy theory:What if Cassie's father STARTED THE GUILD?! Maybe they didn't start out evil, but he was desperate for a solution to Artemis's problem and needed a way to help her that didn't involve going to the Pythian court. Only eventually it evolved over time into the organization we know now that's full of wackjobs. DUN DUN DUN
WOOT! I *love* this theory! I'm adding this to our theories thread immediately because it's just that awesome! :)I could absolutely see this happening. I've always thought there was something odd about those Guild guys, like how they actually manage to travel through time. I could easily see the group becoming some sort of bastardized version of what it was originally, after some power-crazed fanatic got control. For all we know, Cassie's father had to step in again and stop the monster he created!
I hope we get hints of this in Tempt the Stars!!
Claire wrote: "@Lannister I'm 99.9% positive that KC meant Rosier only has other demon offspring. If he had other viable human-ish children, why would he waste his time with someone as contrary as Pritkin?"Lannister wrote: "Missdevora wrote: "I've read in one of the Q&A (I don't remember which one, sorry) that was asking if Rosier has other children, and the answer was that yes he has other children than Pritkin, but ..."
I'd interpret this to mean that Rosier has fewer demon children because of the time and effort he put into havIng a half-human child. And I'd agree with Claire, for her reasons, LOL, as to why Pritkin must be the only human one.
I don't know if we should talk about it here, or on the Mircea thread--but the more I think about it, the more I thinkMircea is gonna be the huge lynchpin at the end. He's gonna be the "answer" to whatever big final showdown that's going to happen. He's the most interesting character, more fleshed out that even the two MCs... what do you think? I have no idea what... I'm still trying to figure out the possibilities.
@Lannister Woohoo! The Conspiracy Queen approves of my ramblings!Seriously, I was just sitting here thinking about how to reconcile the man who is Cassie's father and Artemis's companion with the man in the Guild
Claire, I think it's a great theory and not at all crackpot. Hopefully we'll get something more on it in Tempt the Stars. After all, it's really quite odd that KC introduced a whole organisation of time-travelling mages then never mentioned them again. That in itself is highly suspicious to me. KC often introduces something then goes back to it later, and having Cassie's father deeply involved with this organisation would fit the pattern perfectly.
KC is just so damn sneaky. You never know with her.
Zeenat wrote: "I don't know if we should talk about it here, or on the Mircea thread--but the more I think about it, the more I thinkMircea is gonna be the huge lynchpin at the end. He's gonna be the "answer" t..."
What do you mean precisely that Mircea is 'the answer'? (I understand you aren't quite certain yourself, but I'm trying to grok your thought processes a little).
I believed the backdrop of the books was Ragnarok and thought that it was the driving force behind events. So we have the bad guys on one side (Asshat's father Aeslinn and his branch of the fae/the Green Fey(?)/Tony/Rasputin/the Black Circle). About the fey involvement, although Asshat's mother tells Dory why she thinks Aeslinn is fighting (e.g. he finally had the numbers etc.), I wondered if maybe there were omens or something in Faerie that told them Ragnarok was happening now too. If Jonas could figure out it was happening, then maybe the Fae could too. These guys don't want the old gods destroyed.
So that's the bad guys. On the other side, we have (hopefully) all the vampire senates, the Silver Circle, Caedmon's fey and maybe the demon realm under Rosier. KC has woven all sorts of connections between the good guys (i.e. Dory/Claire/Caedmon; Dory/Asshat & his mother; Dory & the Irin; Cassie/Pritkin/Rosier; Cassie & the Dark Fey King(?); Cassie/Mircea/The Consul (and, by extension, the entire vamp world).
So where does Mircea fit? He can't be one of the direct players in Ragnarok (he's not the child of a god.) Do you think he would lead the good guys in the war? Cos the Consul isn't going to like that! She's positioning herself to run the show.
I tended to think the finale of the series would be the final godly battle, but this time a large number of forces would be involved. The first two god fights have only involved a few individuals and most people would be quite unaware of their occurence. But I thought the third one was going to involve all the parties I outlined above.
I know most of what I've typed above is obvious to you, Zeenat, but I'm trying to lay it out to try to figure out where you're going with this. So do share what ideas you have.
If you come up with a decent theory, feel free to even start a thread dedicated to it. We can call it "Mircea & The Grand Unified Theory of Everything". :)
Yes, I like that name Lannie. Although it does implying upsetting things about the feasibility of fleshing it out
I think the backdrop for Cassie's storyline is ragnarok. The backdrop for Dory's is vampire senateish related stuff. The backdrop for Lia's stories is disruption in were politics.But the backdrop for the whole world is the War. All those pieces play a part, but I think in order to win the war... It's gonna have Mircea doing something, playing something... Something...
I just don't know what yet. I think the vampires are gonna have to own up to something, give up something, I don't know, but Mircea, at the urging of Cassie and Dory, is probably going to be the one to get it to happen.
Zeenat wrote: "I think the backdrop for Cassie's storyline is ragnarok. The backdrop for Dory's is vampire senateish related stuff. The backdrop for Lia's stories is disruption in were politics.But the backdrop..."
So, do you think Ragnarok and the war are separate? Is it just coincidence that war is breaking out all over the place at the same time Ragnarok is happening?
I doubtless felt different at the start, but for a while now I haven't seen Cassie and Dory's plotlines as separate. I think they're just two different POVs of the same story. I think it's possible that there is some evil genius behind it all (like Ming-de?) and they are the mastermind pushing the pieces around and the individuals don't realise how they're being played. This could happen and it is just coincidence that Ragnarok is going on too. But I don't know how Mircea will fit in, unless he ends up having to deal with this person (which would make total sense if it were in fact Ming-de). But it does feel like there's an awful lot going on for one person to be behind it all, so I don't know if that flies.
I do wonder, when you say the Senate might have to own up to something, if maybe the Consul has some secret weapon or talisman or something like that in her stronghold (the one Cassie raided). Maybe the vamps inadvertently started Ragnarok.
Hey, maybe changing the timeline by saving Radu somehow or other started off something, and Mircea has to save the world by going back in time and sacrificing his brother! That would be a great twist. Also, I'd cry cos I love Radu! :D
Maybe Mircea will be sacrificed?? :-X
Zeenat wrote: "Maybe Mircea will be sacrificed?? :-X"*glares* you hush your mouth
What if Mircea brings Cassie and Dory together? They each have knowledge to help win the war. Also, what if Cassie needs Claire to smooth things over with the Dark Fey King, in order to enter Faerie? Or maybe they'll simply ask Claire to hunt Tony down with her contacts!!
Yeahhh, what she said...blasphemy, you heretic!
I don't want Mircea to die either! I think that's absolutely possible, and may be the most important thing Mircea can do. I think with them meeting and once it gets all smoothed out, Dory and Cassie can certainly bring the world to their knees.
I'm copying this from the "Happy Birthday" thread:Arushi said: "Jax has kickstarted another year full of awesome images :D and by wondering if they were both in the same cake, i hereby start another year of speculation and crackpot theories ;) "
THINK ABOUT IT. What if their supposed dislike for one another is concealed attraction. Mircea doesn't want to keep Cassie away from Pritkin to protect her...he doesn't want Cassie stealing his man!
Zeenat wrote: "Maybe Mircea will be sacrificed?? :-X"This would be horrifically awesome! :D
No!! Ack Zeenat, don't encourage her!! This is a GRRM fan we're talking about here.
Claire wrote: "THINK ABOUT IT. What if their supposed dislike for one another is concealed attraction. Mircea doesn't want to keep Cassie away from Pritkin to protect her...he doesn't want Cassie stealing his man! "LOL!! I think someone wrote fanfic about this actually. I seem to remember reading something one time, though I can't remember if it was any good or not.
Now, Pritkin is an incubus and it's on record as saying they have no preference for one sex over the other, so he could easily be attracted to Mircea. And I bet he finds Mircea's power to be a big turn-on too. And they did kinda kiss in that scene in Curse the Dawn where Pritkin was in Cassie's body as they returned to Dante's. IT ALL MAKES SENSE!
Excuse me Mage Pritkin, but I think Lord Marlowe wants a word with you ....
Oh, man, you guys crack me up...hmmm...
I think a triad would be a perfect solution to this problem. Those are popular in UF/PNR right now, right?
Yeah, so who's your favourite triad?I'm torn between me, Marlowe & Mircea, or Marlowe & LC or Marlowe & Asshat. Maybe I need a penta-something.
Crap, I'm turning into Anita Blake! :O
Lannister wrote: "Claire wrote: "THINK ABOUT IT. What if their supposed dislike for one another is concealed attraction. Mircea doesn't want to keep Cassie away from Pritkin to protect her...he doesn't want Cassie s..."Best theory ever.
Maybe when Pritkin went back in time with Cassie, he got inadvertently involved in the geis with them. Though it's been broken between Cassie and Mircea, it still exists between Mircea and Pritkin... :P
OMFG!!!! ^^This is the Best Theory Ever! Pritkin did have a poke about at Cassie's geis to see if he could break it, so it makes complete sense that he might become ensnared too!
I'm laughing so hard. I keep thinking of all those descriptions of Cassie's feelings when she got near Mircea, like how she felt desperate to touch him, and being near him made her feel warm inside. Now picture Pritkin feeling like that every time he goes near Mircea. No wonder he always looks like he's about to have an aneurysm!! And the chemistry ... that's what makes his hair stand on end!
I may have just fallen off my chair laughing! :D :D :D
Mod
Honestly, once you go GRRM you can't go back! :)If someone doesn't die in a series, it doesn't feel completely authentic to me any more. KC did kill off Mac in book two, and his death was heroic and tragic, so she has it in her to kill good guys though he wasn't a main character by any means.
I would cry buckets if Mircea died, but it would also be amazing. You can't beat the emotional punch to the stomach when a favourite character is ripped out of a series. Both Cassie and Dory would be utterly devastated too and you'd really empathise with them in their pain. It would be heart-breaking but so memorable.
Though, please don't take the Ethan Sullivan route ....
Oh, and don't kill Marlowe! :P
I'll try to detail the theories as I have more time, but a few off the top of my head ... (updated to add additional theories)
Who is Cassie's HEA?
Will it be Pritkin, the people's choice? Or will it be the Lord of Hotness himself, Mircea Basarab? Or perhaps an outsider like the bootilicious Tomas, last spotted in South America? Or will we see her settle for two guys? Or none?
The Consul Conspiracy Theory:
Mircea will replace Snakey as the head of the North American Senate. May or may not involve wars, coups, assassinations or general subterfuge.
Fighting Fathers:
Æsubrand's father Aeslinn will fight Cassie's father as part of Ragnarok. This is the 'child of Odin' dying at the hands of Fenrir prophecy about Ragnarok. Presupposes Cassie's father is Fenrir, which might be absolute rot.
Mircea & Marlowe:
Secretly in love with each other. Yes, it's completely crackpot, but so what! This entire theory comes out of one line of text where Marlowe looked stricken that Mircea almost died in Fury's Kiss. Yup, that was all we needed!
Dory & Marlowe:
Based on the 'searing look' that Marlowe gave Dory at the end of Fury's Kiss. This one has pretty much been debunked by KC, but hey it was fun while it lasted.
Dory & Æsubrand:
Come on, we've all read some PNR and when a couple fight like that, they ALWAYS get together in the end. And KC has hinted a couple of times that Dory & LC have a bumpy road ahead.
Cassie's father really is .... ?
Jonas? Rosier? Mircea in a freak time-travelling accident? An ancient spirit? A god or demigod? A reincarnation? Or plain old Roger Palmer? Contenders range from the plausible to the utterly crackpot (with my choices at the crackpot end OF COURSE!)
Cassie's father founded The Guild
Did Cassie's father found The Guild - that group of time-travelling mage fanatics? He's certainly a member, as proven by the scene with Cassie and Agnes at the start of Curse the Dawn, but did he found the organisation too, perhaps as a way to help Artemis? (Credit to Claire for coming up with this theory)
Marlowe & The Consul:
Secret lovers. Have been for centuries. Just don't ask about trouser snakes.
Ming-de - evil temptress:
Ming-de is the true villain and she's behind every evil deed. It's probably a ploy to win back Mircea. Cos we know they were an item, right?
Dory and Scarface
The Exalted Zheng-ze seems rather taken with Dory, and treated her with the respect due to a first level master (something Dorina would no doubt appreciate). Will we see something develop here?
Rosier
There are several theories about Rosier. We know he enjoys power and wants to cement his leadership of the Demon Council, and maybe a demon/demi-goddess grandchild with some human/fey blood in the mix might just be thing! Cassie's likely going to have to negotiate with Rosier for Pritkin's release, so what could she offer him that he might want .... ?
If I've missed anything let me know.
Feel free to share and discuss your own theories, crackpot or otherwise. Seriously, no theory is too 'out there' for this group! We love the wacky plots and paranoid conspiracies.
To kickstart discussions, why not rate the plausibility of the above theories on a scale of 1 to 10.