Behind the Beautiful Forevers -- The Discussion

[Ann D]

Very interesting observations, Dorothy. It seems like they have their own "recycling" system, and that is why people in Annawadi could make a living from it. This has been many years ago, but I had a friend who visited an Indian coworker in India. She had a wonderful time, but she said that people just threw things out the window when they were finished with them instead of putting them in the garbage.

We recently visited the Tenement Museum in New York. I'm a history buff, so I liked it a lot. People did have it bad in those tenements, and there was a lot of malnourishment and health problems. They had roofs over their heads, but in a New York climate,a family couldn't have survived without them. Conditions did gradually get better, and the intervention of middle and upper class reformers had a lot to do with that. Laws were passed to protect people.

There were terrible inequities in the development of capitalism in the United States, but we have always been a rich country and people have had the opportunity to move on if they wanted a better life.

In India, the poverty seems to have been overwhelming for a long, long time. I imagine most of the more well-to-do people close their eyes to it almost as a self-defense mechanism. I think things are getting better.

It was interesting to me that Boo found that religion and caste were not big things among the young slum dwellers. Of course, almost everyone in that environment was of lower caste. When I worked with Indian programmers in the U.S. in the 1990'a caste was still a big problem when choosing a wife. Most of these people were from southern India, and the parents were still arranging the marriages. I have read that things have changed a lot in the city. These guys told me that you can usually identify the caste by the surname. I suspect caste still affects a lot of opportunities.

[Portia]

As a result of reading this book, I had a discussion with my spouse about Dickens' London and New York in the 19th and early 20th centuries as compared to the India of today. What we concluded was that both England and the US are destinations. People have been emigrating to "The Misty Isles" for centuries and we, (especially those of us whose ancestors came through Ellis Island or whose forebearers made the Second Crossing from the East Coast to the Midwest and beyond (Where I Was From), have been told for generations about why we are here.

To put it baldly, no one wants to go to India and everyone wants to go to England or come to America. Well, perhaps not everyone, but those who do come here are filled with the American dream of working hard for a better life for yourself and your family.Even if it is three horse lengths from the hangman or the tax collector!!!

[Barbara]

Wow, I have learned a lot from these discussions! Thank you so much for your in person observations, Dorothy. I kept hoping that we had some Constant Readers from India who would join in here but this was almost as good, or maybe good in a different way.

I've thought about the race for development in countries like India and China too and the environmental impact that results. I listened to an audiobook called Lost on Planet China in which the author commented a lot on air pollution there. But, others told him that it was easy for us to worry about pollution when we had already made the gains that they are striving for. Of course, in my head, I kept thinking that the pollution will kill them before they have the chance to enjoy the progress.

Ann, my brother-in-law has been telling me for years to visit that tenement museum in NYCity. It's going to be a priority for me the next time I go.

[Dorothy]

Portia wrote: "As a result of reading this book, I had a discussion with my spouse about Dickens' London and New York in the 19th and early 20th centuries as compared to the India of today. What we concluded was..."

Indeed, hardly anyone wants to migrate to India, but the migration in India seems more like 18th century migrants to Blake's "dark satanic mills" in England--migration from poorer places within the same country. I'm sure Abdul's family would prefer to come here if they could locate it on a map and had the means to come. They can't just sneak over the border and don't have the skills for the tech visas, what are they called, J-1 or something like that. They do the best they can, trying to better themselves within India..

Does anyone have any comments on Boo's take on global capitalism and world trade? I'm not an economist by any means, but it seems to me she oversimplifies. Any economists out there??

[Sue]

Thank you so much for all those insights. I'm thinking back to Mistry's novels and sme of the scenes in the apartment buildings, etc now are much more revealing. The notion of common space---I wonder if that requires a certain development in the structure of a society.

[Barbara]

I thought this review of the new book, An Uncertain Glory: India and Its Contradictions, was relevant to our discussion. Boo's book is mentioned.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/boo...

[Ann D]

Thanks, Barb, for posting that interesting article. It is sad to read that India is falling further behind its South Asian neighbors in things like literacy and basic health.

I don't presume to know what the answers are, but it is good that some writers, at least, are drawing attention to the serious problems.

[Sue]

I thank you too Barb. The problems seem so huge.

[Sherry, Doyenne]

Barb, thanks for posting that. As Sue says, it seems like such a huge problem. But the first step is knowing about it. I loved the image of the reporter on the back of the poor man, and then the cameraman pulled back and showed the whole picture. I hope this book does a little of that.

[Barbara]

As I read the Boo's book, I kept wondering if this situation was typical of South Asian nations that were slowly moving into better economic times. But, the review makes it clear that India is particularly challenged.

[Ann D]

I wonder if India's huge size and many languages make it harder to implement true reforms. From both this article and Boo's book, it also sounds like the middle and upper classes need to get more involved in political reform.

Most poor countries have corruption, but the extent that it affects basic education in India is mind boggling.

[Sue]

It also sounds as if there are many effects lingering from the cast system in spite of its having been outlawed. Beliefs can take many generations to work out of a society.

[Mary Ellen]

This was a topic on NPR "On Point" this morning. Unfortunately, I was driving, and didn't get all the points that were made, but the speakers certainly tagged the caste system as one reason that the better-off do not do more about the rampant corruption in the country.

[Ann D]

I caught part of the discussion while driving too, Mary Ellen. An Indian man who had lived in the United States for many years thought that American politicians were much more concerned about the common good than Indian politicians. Someone also mentioned that most countries (like China and Bangledesh) that had modernized more recently, started with low skill jobs like clothes manufacture. In contrast, India started with high skilled computer outsourcing and call centers. The people who had attended good schools could take advantage of these opportunities, but not the lower classes for whom educational opportunities remain abysmal in most places.

I didn't hear the part about caste, but it has been so embedded in Indian culture for so long that it is not surprising that it has a strong effect on politics and corruption.