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Behind the Beautiful Forevers -- The Discussion
I loved this book. I couldn't put it down, had to keep reminding myself I wasn't reading a novel, it was that well written. What a heartbreaker. It did as well as any book could in letting me walk in another's footsteps for awhile.Nice to see the photos. Wish there were more. Wish the people had been identified.
I haven't had a chance to read this, but it is on my list. Some photos are heartbreaking, and others show the indominatable human spirit. I am going to follow the discussion.
Ruth wrote: "I loved this book. I couldn't put it down, had to keep reminding myself I wasn't reading a novel, ..."Same here.
I will look at the links and think about more to say. I liked this book very much. Who I think has the best life is a tough question!
Its funny that before CR, I had no idea about this book. I read no information on it prior to reading so imagine my shock when I learned it was nonfiction. Looking at the pictures and reading this book reminds of some of my childhood. Sometimes not so brutal but just as heartbreaking. I look forward to the discussion though I won't be posting.
Barbara, your hunch was correct. Boo has written about poverty in America as well and the often futile efforts to scramble out of the lowest socioeconomic rungs. In "After Welfare" (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/...), she writes about the Welfare-to-Workfare initiative signed into law by President Clinton that led many single parents out into the workforce with few childcare options. And in "The Marriage Cure" (http://newamerica.net/node/6403), she writes about the initiative to encourage marriage among poor Americans. She casts doubt on the dangerous assumption that those who earn little put little effort into working or finding a better-paying job. It's a distressing subject, but a necessary one to educate ourselves about. Those interested in Boo's writing can find links to other pieces by her here: http://www.unz.org/Author/BooKatherine
It's been a few months since I read this, but among the many things that struck me was the depiction of the legal system in India as well as the description of how loans for small businesses were decided on. Yet with all the poverty and corruption described and the complete uselessness of the public education system, I was amazed how much the children saw education as the way to make a better life for themselves. It doesn't just seem that educators are more respected there, as many teachers seemed not to do their job at all. It must be something else about their culture that inspires this reverence for knowledge. I wonder what it is, as a clue to how this can be fostered elsewhere.
Julie wrote: "Ruth wrote: "I loved this book. I couldn't put it down, had to keep reminding myself I wasn't reading a novel, ..."Same here.
I will look at the links and think about more to say. I liked this bo..."
I felt exactly the same...it did at times seem as if I was reading a novel though I was painfully aware that these were real people.
I've heard and read some details of the corruption in Indian politics and police before but the details here are so heartbreaking. I think the details that really got to me were the mention of the donations from the charity World Vision and how they were abused by local "social workers". I've heard of the charity though never given to it. Makes one wonder if they have made any changes in their methods of delivery or use of middle men.
The other detail that really hit me was that, at least for the poor, one appears to be guilty until or unless they can pay someone off. Those who have nothing must then have even less.
There was some talk of police bribery in The White Tiger, which I have read, but it was still kind of shocking to read again. It seemed like every time the police were mentioned, there was mention of one wanting money.
What impressed me the most about this book was Katherine Boo's writing style. Going in, I thought I knew the book was non-fiction. But by the third chapter, I was convinced it was fiction. To me, this means Boo has the gift of storytelling, of having a compelling writing style, that she is able to keep the attention of readers of news reports and of novels.
Thanks for the links here. I've spent all morning reading the discussion points and the two articles posted by Yulia. This was a great book - I found it difficult to read, and sometimes, didn't want to read it at all. In the end, I was so glad I did and felt vaguely sad that the poor in the world have it so hard - in India, the US, and everywhere else.
Agreed Gina. Boo has a gift for putting us there, as Portia has said. She is an amazing storyteller. As we keep hearing on the news that the disparity between the haves and have-nots in the world is growing, she shows us how desperate are the lives of the have-nots. As the middle classes of the world are gradually declining, will we develop more empathy for those on the bottom or more fear?
One of the things that occurred to me is how I'd like to be able to send some of my garbage to Abdul. Do you all think that there is a market for things like plastic bags here? And why were the guards in the airport so determined not to let the poor boys have their garbage and recyclables? I kept waiting for the "hope" to appear that is in the title. It seemed to be very watered-down hope. It was a disheartening book to me because all the corruption at every turn. An amazing book, but very sad.
Sherry wrote: "One of the things that occurred to me is how I'd like to be able to send some of my garbage to Abdul. Do you all think that there is a market for things like plastic bags here? And why were the gua..."Sherry, do you think "Hope" in the title refers to "Hope springs eternal in the human breast." (Can't, off the top of my head, remember the author of that quote.) Or Scarlett O'Hara's "Tomorrow is another day." Or Little Orphan Annie's "Tomorrow" ... You get the point. Is Boo referring to the fact that, no matter how hard life gets, we humans still get up every morning and hope today will be good and tomorrow better?
And can that be why this book is so painful for people like me to read, people who have a house and clean water and who know what's for dinner, because we know that life is not going to be better for the denizens of Annawadi tomorrow or any day soon.
Portia wrote: "Sherry wrote: "One of the things that occurred to me is how I'd like to be able to send some of my garbage to Abdul. Do you all think that there is a market for things like plastic bags here? And w..."I guess that is probably true, Portia. But it's a thin kind of hope, a desperate kind of hope. The kind that so many of the residents lost and ate rat poison or immolated themselves. Even their suicides were poor. I can't think of a worse way to go than immolating yourself, but it is cheap.
Hard to imagine a life where the level of hope is so low but these people seem to have known nothing else from birth. Their lives in the villages they left behind seem little, if any, better. Worse for the women, without even the tenuous hope of Annawadi. Imagining the worsening that would lead to suicide is almost incomprehensible.
I have heard that we humans need to put a face on suffering before we do anything about it. In other words, if we hear that the people of India are suffering, we think, "Oh, the poor people of India." But if, as Katherine Boo has provided for us, we have a face and a name to associate with the suffering -- "Abdul is hungry. Fatima is dying of her burns. Manju has no hope," then there is a greater chance that we will do something (give money, volunteer, etc.) to improve the condition of Abdul or to prevent another woman's dying like Fatima did, or to get Manju into college. If this is true, then Katherine Boo has done a good job.However, if the sympathy stirred by our reading of this book is exploited by wily NGOs, then none of us has any hope.
So true Portia. A good question is how to get around the corruption and help the people. I wondered about that throughout my reading. I wonder if it's possible in India today.
Sherry, I also kept on thinking what all my trash, all America's trash, would be worth to the entrepreneurial recyclers profiled in the book! It really made me appreciate how much we take for granted what we toss and how we can do so much better in tending to our own waste. I hope I've never been very wasteful, but I did become more aware of what I chose to throw away after reading this. By the way, I came across an article in the NY Times that said, "Families with an annual household income below 24,200 rupees, or $405, [meet] the official poverty line."
Yulia wrote: "Sherry, I also kept on thinking what all my trash, all America's trash, would be worth to the entrepreneurial recyclers profiled in the book! It really made me appreciate how much we take for gran..."In the U.S. that's probably about the yearly budget for a teenager's acne cream.
I know I've been far more attentive to recycling over the past few years so that my trash bag is less and less full. Makes me feel a bit better.
Thank you, Barb, for nominating this book. Once more, Constant Reader has led me to a remarkable book that I would never have read on my own.Like everyone else, I did find this book sad, but I was also impressed with how hard these people were willing to work to improve their lives. Many of them did have hope. According to Boo, "almost no one in this slum was considered poor by official Indian benchmarks." Life in the poor agricultural areas they came from was even worse. In Annawadi they might be hungry, but they weren't starving. The Indian economy was expanding and many people were getting ahead - just very few of their own sort.
I was appalled at the level of corruption and how thoroughly it permeated all facets of society. This could be an irritant for members of the middle classes, but for the slum dwellers it often presented hopeless obstacles. One solution was to become part of the system. Asha took this road, and a lot of the time I had to admire her. Did anyone else have this response to her?
BTW, Barb, I would have to say that Asha's daughter Manju had the best life - although I would never want it.
This sounds like the real life account to "A Fine Balance" (which incidentally is my favorite book). it also reminded me of the documentary Born into Brothels.The lives of the residents of Annawadi is almost unimaginable, but sadly India is not the only country where this occurs. My family is originally from Bangladesh, and this is everyday life for millions of people. The unfortunate tragedy of the collapse of the clothing factory is a tragic example of such. The juxtaposition of the slums and the high rise buildings and luxury hotels mad me feel very bitter, as if the higher powers of India are blatantly letting the slum dwellers know that they don't care and have no intentions of making the situation better. It is inexcusable, in my opinion, that a country where so many of our brilliant thinkers and innovators come from, that the issue of extreme poverty, unclean water, health care is still rampant. Another chord that stayed with me is that corruption was something that was just accepted, the poor knew that they just had to deal with it. A country will never succeed or make gains if they treat half their population with disdain.
On a positive note, Manju, I read, has completed her Bachelor's degree and is now working towards her Master's. :-)
Thank you for your comments, Kohinoor. I also really liked A Fine Balance, as well as Mistry's Family Matters, which we recently read on Constant Reader. The latter story also dealt with the Hindu nationalist party Shiv Sena, which Asha belonged to in this book.I think education can be one answer, and I was very touched by the boy who registered for school every year and then took the final tests, even though he had to work instead of actually attend school. Manju may have just had a rote education, memorizing the plots of famous books, but she did seem to genuinely care about children and definitely attracted them to her classes. Yet, we read that she could never teach in the public schools unless she paid a very large bribe! Those who paid the bribe often did little or no teaching.
After I read this, I wanted to contribute to some organization that was actually helping these people, but it sounds like local people are siphoning off the money allocated by the NGOs to help the poor people in India.
As you pointed out, India is not the only place where these kinds of things are happening. It made me sick to read about the horrible factory collapse in Bangladesh, which killed so many innocents. Historically, the development of capitalism also involved great suffering in the West. By now we should have progressed beyond this point, but before that can happen there must be better government and regulations which are actually enforced.
Interestingly enough, Boo says that the more educated people in India don't really participate that much in the political process. They leave it to the party bosses and the poor. We are told in the U.S. that India is the largest democracy, which is really kind of a joke. The poor people vote, but receive little benefit. Programs are set up to help them, but corrupt leaders take way too much of the money.
We aren't finished with this book, are we? Surely other Constant Readers must have reactions to thisThought-provoking book?
Reading it has affected how I see the world. This morning's paper had an article about children in India poisoned by insecticide in a school lunch. Instead of just thinking, what a tragedy, I found myself considering who paid off whom so they could get by with selling tainted food to the school.
I thought this book was amazing too. I have read a number of books set in India and think this was the one that has most affected me. Was a bit worried about the effect on donations because of the rampant bribery. Got to thinking then about the UKs withdrawal of aid to India. So much of the news is negative - violence against women, the school lunch deaths etc. Should we be sending our recycling abroad with the health risks involved in dealing with it. Too many questions without answers. Thank you for recommending it.
I would think the energy costs of transporting our waste would exceed the benefits of recycling it. The answer is to recycle more where we are (after we've greatly downsized what we believe we need) and provide jobs in the process--though this would affect manufacturing and retail profits.
Ruth,I thought of this book when I read about the lunch poisoning too. The principal and her husband have disappeared. The principal bought food for the school lunches from her husband's grocery store, although it is not clear how often she did this per CNN. Lots of room for corruption there.
Sherry wrote: "I kept waiting for the "hope" to appear that is in the title. It seemed to be very watered-down hope. ..."Yeah, I didn't see much hope either. Some of the characters had glimmers of it, but to us it still looks bleak.
It's certainly a very different version of hope than what I would consider but then the people of Annawadi really live a very different existence, seemingly unhelped by anyone beyond their own.
For the most part (the suicides being the exceptions), I don't think these people pitied themselves, do you?
Ann wrote: "For the most part (the suicides being the exceptions), I don't think these people pitied themselves, do you?"Actually there seemed to be a very low level of self pity. I wonder if that's part of the very low expectations most have combined with that ever resilient hope that seems to linger for reasons that seem unfathomable.
I'm recalling now how one of the garbage gatherers--was it Abdul--was hoping his brother would do better than him in the future. Each had some hope for someone else at times.
Sue,I think you are right. Low expectations had to play an important part. I think it also shows how adaptable human beings are.
Which character did you like the most? What did the rest of you think of Asha?
Did Boo give any explanation of why the police were so cruel and greedy?
These are things I am still thinking about.
Sorry, I haven't been here much. This has been a busy week, but I've been reading the notes and this is a great discussion.Ann, the character I liked most was Abdul. There was a comment somewhere early on by his father that Abdul didn't have the aptitude for school. The reaction (I think attributed to Abdul) was that he never had a chance to be there long enough to find out. He kept his head down and simply worked, not even for his own gain, but to keep his family tenuously afloat. I kept wondering what would happen to a person like that if he had even the least bit of an opportunity. He didn't seem to ever be tempted to do something illegal and he's almost the definition of work ethic.
Regarding my first question as to who had the best life in the book, I know it is meant to refer to the people of Annawadi, but it's hard to pick anyone, isn't it? Manju does seem to be the only choice. But, my impulse is to say that it would have to be someone outside Annawadi, like the judges.
I'm still thinking about your other two questions, Ann.
Like you, Barbara, Abdul is the person I liked the most and for the same reasons. He seemed to be concerned for his family as well as himself and worked so hard. He turned himself in though he knew he hadn't done anything wrong, he tried to find a philosophy of life to make his life better.I have mixed feelings for Asha. On one level i have to admire her ability to push herself ahead and use the system. BUT it's so sad how she then used and abused her neighbors as she moved slightly up the ladder.
As for the police, they seemed to act out of a long-established practice of graft, a system that both police and victims expected. They also appear to be underpaid from a few comments in the book and this cruelty and graft adds to their recompense for their work. They are another part of a largely uncaring system.
I'm joining in late because I just got back from a short vacation and keep off internet while away.If not for being picked for discussion, I doubt I'd have finished reading this book.I kept looking for signs for hope throughout. The author is talented but I found it so incredibly depressing. I felt physically ill after reading about Meena's death.
The description of Abdul's (do I have the right name- I returned book to library) thought process about water and ice gave a little glimmer, yet later on even he indicated a disillusionment on those hopes. The only positive I found was the family not being found guilty of One-Leg's death.
Oh, and I also was disillusioned about charities and their “work” in India. It makes you wonder how anything can be done if you can’t even trust money given to charity will be used for the intended purpose.
My husband told me to stop waking him up to talk about this book and that I should just write what I had to say. So here goes.For me, the women in Abdul's world were in some ways heroic regardless of the seemingly despicable way in which they used people for their gain. That's all they know how to do. How can a person take care of their family and hope for a better life than the one they have? In times of desperation, you may have to step on other people to survive. I'm not condoning it, but the women seem to be in survival mode and if they can do it to stay above the rest then whatever they did to get there was worth it. The major drawback in this attitude is that they do not try to help others below them. Once they get to a place where they have something extra, the greed for more drives them rather than the idea that maybe they should help the people they stepped on along the way.
I would say that Abdul has the best life. I say this because he is ultimately the only honest person around and whatever he is dishonest about (the stories of the master for instance) is trivial. He knows what he needs to do to feed his family and he does it. Not only that, he tries to do it honestly. At the end of the day, there is some hope that eventually someone will realize that he would never cause harm to anyone. He can actually hope for this because he tends to believe that there is good in everyone until they prove otherwise.
I originally thought Manju represented hope but when she signed the paperwork for Asha, I thought she would more or less become like her. Everyone is able to grab what he or she can for however long they can because they know that nothing is guaranteed. Their accomplices may turn on them at any given time so they hoard their good fortune hoping it will sustain them in times when they are in need.
I think it was Sherry who wrote about the cheapness of even the suicides. I thought about that too but then realized that was the only way. They lived as they died only dying gave them freedom.
Whew! I think that's it.
I have two books that touch on this subject.Kids for Cash: Two Judges, A $2.8 Million Kickback Scheme, and Juvenile Injustice describes how children in Luzerne County, PA were "sold" into the local juvenile detention center. Also mentioned is how teachers (or their families) are required to pay large amounts in order to get jobs and how the county lost so many good young educators because they were not able (or refused) to come up with the bribe money. This happened in the past ten years HERE, in the US.
Another, by Christopher Hitchens, talks about NGOs. The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice
Depressing, isn't it?
Shawn,Excellent note. I liked this, especially the last sentence: "For me, the women in Abdul's world were in some ways heroic regardless of the seemingly despicable way in which they used people for their gain. That's all they know how to do. How can a person take care of their family and hope for a better life than the one they have?"
We should be careful about judging Asha, Manju, and Fatima (the one-legged woman) too harshly. At the end of the book, Boo says: "It is easy, from a safe distance, to overlook the fact that in under-cities governed by corruption, where exhausted people vie on scant terrain for very little, it is blisteringly hard to be good. The astonishment is that some people are good, and that many people try to be—all those invisible individuals"
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Janet,I can understand your feelings about reading depressing books. I feel that way about fiction because I hold the author responsible for treating her characters so badly. :-).
I feel differently about non-fiction. That is reporting reality, and I am grateful to this author for helping me understand more about the human condition.
Hopefully, this book will inspire someone to take it beyond just describing the reality. Unfortunately, my guess is that this book won't have much impact in India because it was written by an American.
Ann wrote: "Shawn,Excellent note. I liked this, especially the last sentence: "For me, the women in Abdul's world were in some ways heroic regardless of the seemingly despicable way in which they used peopl..."
Thanks for reprinting that last line as a reminder Ann. Hard to judge goodness in another culture against our own.
It has been a month or so since I read this book, and I think that some of the details are washed out in my brain as a natural human avoidance mechanism of things that are difficult that we cannot readily fix. And also, my simple-by-American standards, but truly rich, luxurious life of frequently spending days kayaking beautiful rivers and picking the lush Oregon berries of summer has put me in a pleasant daze. I agree with the comments that draw parallels and warnings about the disintegration of the middle class and the rise of the wealthy and corporate in the U.S. and other like nations. And politics in the last few years has shown us pretty clearly how little the wealthy and corporate really care about people.
I made a few (thus far unsuccessful) attempts at contacting the author to ask if she knew of a way to send some assistance to this or a similar slum that would not be hijacked by corruption. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would feel better if we could at least do a little something.
One impression I came away with from this book is that regardless of circumstances, people the world over are somewhat the same with their virtues, potential vices, sometimes irritation and pettiness with others, joys at simple good turn of fortunes, etc. And, that a downtrodden group can still have subgroups and peoples that are looked on as inferior or superior by them as well.
One thing I remember feeling as I read the book (like when no one helped the dying man in the road) was something I know a teensy bit about from my own semi-poverty years through grad school -- it is that beyond the constant struggle to provide the basics for oneself, the kind of poverty that can be the most painful inside is to simply not have the wherewithal to be generous to others, to give. I think of that a lot when people are awarded honors for giving 1 million here or there, because though it's nice that they give, the fact that they are in a position to want of nothing for themselves and have extra to give is a luxurious position THEY should be thankful for, to be able afford the enjoyment of giving and helping others (having extra and giving it to something/someone you select is as much a gift to the giver as the receiver).
Thank you for posting the video and pictures. It helps to remember they are actual people and not fictional characters.
I share the feeling of hopelessness about the corruption. And I know that anyone in the corruption chain also has some justification for their actions in that if they are not part of the corruption they might become victim of it instead. The one thing I saw no point to at all was the beating of prisoners.
Lyn wrote: "It has been a month or so since I read this book, and I think that some of the details are washed out in my brain as a natural human avoidance mechanism of things that are difficult that we cannot ..."Lyn, you've put it the best of all of us.
Ann, I wondered why the people of Annawadi didn't organize to protest against the police, airport, courts and government. on page 237, I read, "But the slumdwellers rarely got mad together - not even about the airport authority. Instead, powerless individuals blamed other powerless individuals for what they lacked. Sometimes they tried to destroy one another. Sometimes, like Fatima, they destroyed themselves in the process." Why didn't they revolt?
Great question, Gina. Maybe it was because the people they blamed were conveniently living right there in Annawadi and the slum dwellers didn't have the energy or the bravery/foolhardiness to protest against those in power. They were all squatters. The government could have made their lives worse. You mentioned Fatima, whose life was heartbreaking, although it did not justify what she tried to do to her neighbors. As a handicapped person, she got no respect at all. Her Hindu parents married her off to a Muslim, which I think must be very rare. She tried to pretty herself up with lip stick and substitute sex for love, but her neighbors thought it was totally ridiculous for a one-legged woman to try to find love.
Does a society have to be richer to have compassion for handicapped people? Or did Fatima bring their mockery upon herself?
I wondered about Abdul's mother as well. She was certainly a survivor and, I think, a pretty good mother. But as an outsider, it was very difficult for me to understand why she had 10 children. I know this was because her strict brand of Islam prohibited birth control, but - again from an outsider point of view - it seems crazy.
Gina wrote: "Ann, I wondered why the people of Annawadi didn't organize to protest against the police, airport, courts and government. on page 237, I read, "But the slumdwellers rarely got mad together - not ..."I don't think that's really that unusual. It's not really just a local issue. Even though caste has been legally changed in India from what I understand, there is residual which we see in the book. There is also the separateness of varied religious beliefs. It didn't seem that some of the people in Annawadi felt they could rebel against authority. They could only live the best possible life and hope not to run afoul of it. They knew they were squatters, knew that at some time thee terrible places they lived would be taken away.
with all of this going on, as well as the daily struggle to survive, I'm not surprised there was no uniting against authority. These are a beaten down people. Another factor I just thought of is inadequate nutrition and healthcare. Weak people don't mount strong protests.
I also think that in order to protest you have to have some kind of belief that your actions can change anything.
Constant Reader
Books mentioned in this topic
An Uncertain Glory: India and its Contradictions (other topics)Where I Was From (other topics)
Indian Summer: The Secret History of the End of an Empire (other topics)
From the Ruins of Empire: The Revolt Against the West and the Remaking of Asia (other topics)
This Town: Two Parties and a Funeral — plus plenty of valet parking! — in America's Gilded Capital (other topics)
More...
http://www.behindthebeautifulforevers...
http://www.behindthebeautifulforevers...
Since I knew this book was nonfiction, I kept wanting photos of the people concerned. This still left me wanting more, but it's a start.
Just after I read this book, I listened to a New York Times podcast about two financial gurus from Sri Lanka and India in the United States who have been prosecuted for insider trading. Listening to the details of their upbringing and education, the comparisons to experiences of the people who lived in Annawadi kept ringing in my head. But, I think we are all going to be tempted to think that this is only happening elsewhere. As Boo points out in her author notes, the gap between those who have and those who have not internationally is widening every day and, personally, I viewed this book as a warning of a trend everywhere, even in so called "developed" countries. Do you think I am wrong?
Also, Boo's website has some great discussion questions and I may be borrowing a few for our talk here. My favorite was: "Who do you think has the best life in the book, and why?"