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* Week 1 -- August 12 - 18. Read from Chapter 1, "Arrival" (Ankunft) p.3, until Chapter 3 "One Word too Many" p.81
Oh I don't know - I immediately wondered about what you said about beer being prescribed to anaemics as it's full of iron - well how come Hans is anaemic if he's been on the porter most of his life? Doesn't tie up.I thought there was nothing wrong with Hans except a certain laziness, love of his own comfort; as someone pointed out, he mentions that he feels perfectly healthy when he's doing nothing. He's a bit soft, a bit easy going, but I don't see him as physically unwell, myself.
I think this too has to do with what Moira has found so troubling in the translation - in German Hans sounds HEARTY. A little old-fashioned hearty, yes, but definitely slightly gushing and enthusiastic.
I feel that we need to see this place as making Hans into something he wasn't before. Whether it's a cure or an illness that will transform him remains to be seen.
The ambiguity of whether to consider Hans healthy or unhealthy was foreshadowed to me by these words of Mann in his "Making of MM", which I read prior to reading the novel (not recommended in its entirety if strongly sensitive to spoilers, but did not bother me.) "I [Mann] had been at the so-called Berghof ten days, sitting out on the balcony in cold,damp weather, when I got a troublesome bronchial cold. Two specialists were in the house, the head physician and his assistant, so I took the obvious course of consulting them. I accompanied my wife to the office, she having been summoned to one of her regular examinations. The head doctor, who of course looked rather like Hofrat Behrens, thumped me about and straightway discovered a so-called moist spot in my lung.
"If I had been Hans Castorp, the discovery might have changed the whole course of my life. The physician assured me that I should be acting wisely to remain there for six months and take the cure. If I had followed his advice, who knows, I might still be there! I wrote The Magic Mountain instead...."
p487 here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/31583019/Th...
Lily wrote: "The ambiguity of whether to consider Hans healthy or unhealthy was foreshadowed to me by these words of Mann in his "Making of MM", which I read prior to reading the novel (not recommended in its e..."I like yours and Karen's explanations, Lily. It will make for a more interesting story if we imagine this place as making Hans into something he wasn't before. as Karen phrased it and as TM seemed to imply in the "Making of MM".
But TM did seem to be dropping hints - Hans feeling flushed, his cigar not tasting right, his appetite being off, all that made me think he was already ill.
On the other hand, I could feel the two doctors eyeing him up in a very mercenary way as a possible future long stay patient and already moulding him for such a state by harping on his anaemia and having him take his temperature and develop the 'rest cure' habit.
As to the translation, I think 'spiffing' was the only place it snagged for me but the word would have been used in England at that time.
Fionnuala wrote: "...But TM did seem to be dropping hints - Hans feeling flushed, his cigar not tasting right, his appetite being off, all that made me think he was already ill...."I quite agree that the situation is ambiguous, even as you suggested, the motives of those who encouraged him to go visit his cousin.
Symbolically, can the same be said of a civilization -- it is hard to gauge whether healthy or unhealthy?
Yes, the combination of cold feet and a hot face is an odd one indeed, but I was wondering if that had some more symbolic meaning rather than purely naturalistic detail. It's always hard to say, especially with Mann, he does like to keep you guessing. Similarly with the cigar, it's true Hans says this normally only happens when he has a cold, but it also might be him losing his taste for other attributes of the young blade about town.He does rather suddenly start to 'philosophize' about the nature of time after meeting Settembrini. Something I wouldn't have expected of him, and Joachim seems somewhat disconcerted by it. Philosophitis, that's what he's caught.
·Karen· wrote: "Philosophitis, that's what he's caught."Hah, yes if he can catch philosophitis that quickly, he has no chance of withstanding TB.
I laughed at his very serious attempt to understand how time is measured and I loved how TM made him unable to remember his exact train of thought afterwards. Hans IS just like most of us, he is a kind of Everyman.
Mod
Hans seems not to be the kind of person who is independent enough to think for himself, (his choice of career was chosen for him, the decision to visit his cousin was his uncle's idea, etc.) so it would be natural for him to imagine himself as "sick" if he received enough comments from others to that effect.
Mod
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Lily, this looks like a good speech to may be come back to later one if it has spoilers. Do you mind posting it in the supplementary readings on TMM, so that for those who do not want to read it now, they can find it easily when we are done with the novel?. Thank you.
Mod
In difference to BB and to DiV, the title of this novel does not include a hint of what will happen.
Kalliope wrote: "..the title of this novel does not include a hint of what will happen. ."I like that there are no hints in the title. I like to watch how a writer circles his themes and to notice how he focuses in on the one he has decided to prioritise.
My copy of Buddenbrooks was the Vintage edition and the subtitle doesn't appear on the cover or title pages. It is referred to in the blurb on the back cover but I don't read blurbs till the end. It wasn't until I caught up with the online group that I discovered the subtitle and by then, alarm bells had begun to ring in any case. But I was glad I'd had the chance to figure it out for myself.
Lily wrote: "Symbolically, can the same be said of a civilization -- it is hard to gauge whether healthy or unhealthy? "Excellent point, Lily. Especially if we are to see Hans as representative of his class and time.
Lily wrote: "Sue -- you hit upon one of the perennial challenges of translation. Let enough time pass, and it can happen even within a language -- consider Beowulf, Chaucer, even Shakespeare. You touch on one of the reasons some prefer Victorian translations of some of the great Russian novels, regardless of more faithfulness to the original in other aspects, especially by P&V."Yeah, that's a really great point. I think "slangy" translations are really in right now, particularly for older Russian novels.
Lily wrote: "'Yes, certainly the German reader recognized himself in the simple-minded but shrewd young hero of the novel.""Oh thanks for the link, that's awesome!
I really think Hans is meant to be a Holy Fool type -- like Parsifal in Wagner's opera, the pure-hearted (but not too bright), or the Fool in the Tarot deck, someone whose innocence or even naievete (sp) points up the corruption and danger in his surroundings.
Kris wrote: "I'm still laughing at philosophitis. I know people in college who caught that, and were never the same....."YES, that is fantastic. The dreaded philosophitis! Settembrini is obviously riddled with it!
....not to be too horribly materialistic and reductionist, but a lot of the symptoms Hans is suffering -- shortness of breath, pounding heartbeat, flushed/splotched complexion, weird reaction to cigarettes/cigars, disturbed sleep, extremities swelling, and so on -- could be attributed to mild altitude sickness, or even just lack of acclimatization (sp). I forget how high up they are (and am too lazy to look) but I remember tourists in Santa Fe, which is about 7K feet high, getting awful headaches, insomnia, nosebleeds, &c., especially if they spent a lot of time out in the sun. The old cliche, too, is that if you drink a lot at a higher altitude without being used to it, you'll get more drunk. -- That actually may be due to dehydration -- mountain air is very dry (which was supposed to be good for the lungers! US sanitariums were in Virginia, North Carolina, Arizona, &c). Also, if the sun is shining through less atmosphere and bouncing back up at you from the snow, it's easier to get sunburned.
I think I remember reading elsewhere about Eugene O'Neill sitting outside for hours on clinic verandas, but I am kind of shocked the MM patients are SLEEPING outside. In the mountains, when the sun drops behind them, nights can be freezing, particularly when it's windy.
Diane wrote: "Hans seems not to be the kind of person who is independent enough to think for himself, (his choice of career was chosen for him, the decision to visit his cousin was his uncle's idea, etc.) so it ..."Good point! I too think Hans not standing out by making a decision by himself could be one of the Hans' characteristics as "representative" of his generation.
If I look at the scene between Hans and Joachim where they discuss Behrens' attitude towards the dying who have not given up on life, yet, it strikes me that Hans's reply is much more based on social convention than his own personal feeling of sympathy for the individuals who have been told they are about to die.
Joachim's attitude - as inappropriate and harsh as it may be - at least seems to be his own.
·Karen· wrote: "I was wondering if that had some more symbolic meaning rather than purely naturalistic detail. It's always hard to say, especially with Mann, he does like to keep you guessing. Similarly with the cigar, it's true Hans says this normally only happens when he has a cold, but it also might be him losing his taste for other attributes of the young blade about town.I really like that about Mann - as you point out, there's a great mix of naturalistic detail which is also symbolic, or even mythological or psychologically weighted -- that happened a lot in Death in Venice, too. It gives his work this real kind of ambiguity and depth, sort of another dimension (God that sounds vague, but maybe you know what I mean).
Philosophitis, that's what he's caught. "
This may seriously be my favourite observation so far.
I found it Moira: 1600 metres, which is around 5,000 feet. Yes, the body may react in all sorts of ways to that kind of altitude, until accustomed. Certainly the beer seemed to affect Hans more potently than he expected.
·Karen· wrote: "Joachim had studied law for a while to please his family, but the urge to become a soldier was irresistible. Behrens emphasises his warrior qualities (Myrmidon), but contrasts them with the talent for being sick, which must therefore be a kind of surrender. "Now see, I read that as Joachim not having the talent for being sick and therefore having a stronger will to get healthy. Dr. Krokowski jokingly complains that Joachim constantly badgers him about leaving and not even wanting to give six months of his time then turns to Hans and immediately sums him up to be a better patient and having the talent for being will…which he does. Even in his youth he seemed to readily accept a 'possible' diagnosis of anemia which enabled him to drink beer and doze off.
I think back to the conversation with Setttembrini where Hans speaks of having a weak constitution. So from there we can guess that he's not strong-willed and can therefore be easily swayed by suggestion. He fed into the anemia easily and where the mind goes the body will quickly follow. He's ripe for picking and Krowoski's suggestions to follow Joachim's routines sets everything in motion.
I'm also keeping in mind that the Sanatorium is a place of rest, yes, but it's also a lucrative business and one that benefits from not having empty beds! Hans already has his and I'm sure they'd like to keep him using it for as long as possible!
·Karen· wrote: "Yes, the combination of cold feet and a hot face is an odd one indeed, but I was wondering if that had some more symbolic meaning rather than purely naturalistic detail. It's always hard to say, es..."You guys!! Okay, I am absolutely not going to refute Mann's intention to shroud Hans Castorp's symptoms (and their causes) in layers of ambiguity, but I do want you to keep these few things in mind, because I think they are fascinating.
1. By definition, anemia is a shortage of red blood cells. This "shortage" I take to mean, not so much below a certain quantifiable value, but that there are fewer RBCs than the body needs to transport oxygen. BY DEFINITION, there is less oxygen at higher altitudes than at lower. I think it's pretty safe to say that many people experience initial symptoms of anemia when they suddenly move to high altitudes.
2. Increased heart rate (!!) is a temporary but very, very common condition for people who have suddenly moved to higher altitudes. It is related to the "anemia" thing. Basically, your heart rate needs to increase to compensate for the fact that your body has fewer RBCs than it needs at these higher altitudes. It takes about a day for each 100 feet you climb for your heart rate to return to normal (at which point your bloodstream will have been effused with more RBCs from your bone marrow). So, for example, if you were to move up 3,000 feet, your heart rate may need to work harder for the first 30 days until your body has acclimated. FYI: Davos-Platz is over 5,000 feet above sea level.
3. This one might be a stretch, BUT: increased heart rate correlates strongly with metabolic rate. And increased metabolic rate would very possibly affect the body's core temperature, perhaps not enough to notice, but it would be caught by thermometer readings and monitoring. At the very least, this increased heart rate would contribute to one feeling more "flushed" than usual.
4. Finally, and this is pretty indisputable, but TASTE BUDS are severely, severely affected by altitude. This is documented by nearly anyone who has had any experience in the airline industry, for even though commercial aircraft is pressurized, the body's ability to process taste is still reduced at those higher altitudes.
Wheee!!
Oh, never mind. There's another page of comments I didn't see and you people already addressed this.This is why I do not post.
·Karen· wrote: "I found it Moira: 1600 metres, which is around 5,000 feet. "GAH, that's pretty high.
Even with the reductionist view of altitude sickness it might be worth asking -- is the place itself making Hans sick or not? The very nature of the resort/sanitarium seems to suck people in and make them sick -- not just the greed of the doctors, or the possible wish of visitors to sink into lassitude or whatever, but something about it.
Jason wrote: "Oh, never mind. There's another page of comments I didn't see and you people already addressed this.This is why I do not post."
Aww, but I enjoyed the "!!"
I think the actual medical points are good ones, and possibly even stuff Mann was observing even if he might not have known what was causing it (I wonder when altitude sickness was first diagnosed?), but it does still maybe leave open the question: is the sanitarium making people sick? Do they want to get sick and remain sick to stay there? and if so, why?
One of the first things we hear about the place is the anecdote about that woman who had acclimated to it so well she couldn't bear to leave, even though she was healthy. I think super-industrious Mann probably views such patients as soft and lazy, but I'm also wondering if he's thinking of the Nietzschean view of sickness and health. But there's that interesting point about Hans at the beginning - he's not interested in work, and clearly Mann deplores that, and says as well that work is the most valued thing in society. But because Hans doesn't see it as the end-all (may be misremembering this) that's a part of his nature, young and silly and often foolish as it is, that might be developed into something (at least, that was the sense I got from that bit).
I think there's an element of three different things going on: 1) that there's a certain amount of altitude sickness affecting people, physiologically speaking; 2) that certain "types" of people, including Hans, play the patient really well and can easily find themselves "caught up" in the leisurely daily routine of the sanatorium (as evidenced by those anecdotes of those who left the sanatorium only to return to it as their "home); and 3) that there's also somewhat of a supernatural thing going on, where—as Moira said—the sanatorium is "making" people sick.I don't think any one of these things explains the situation, but I do think there's probably a combination of all three of those things going on, and that this story will mostly be about the philosophizing that goes on around it, which is the point of the organ-grinder.
Also, there's a huge amount of this book that focuses on "time" and its increments and how it's measured and how it's perceived (which are two different things), and I find all of that pretty fascinating. I'm a bit ahead in my reading, so maybe it hasn't come into play much for discussion in this thread, but I did want to mention it.There's also the possibility that it's already been discussed, in which case just ignore the old man talking in the corner here.
Moira mentions Hans's lack of interest in work and how Mann deplores this attitude. Is it just me reading that passage about the value of work as Mann being ironic? "How could Hans Castorp not have held work in high esteem? That would have been unnatural. As things stood, work had to be regarded as unconditionally the most estimable thing in the world - ultimately there was nothing one could esteem more, it was the principle by which one stood or fell, the absolute of the age, the answer, so to speak, to its own question." (Woods)
I am a complete TM (and goodreads) novice and I know nothing about his personal views, so I am ready to be proven wrong. But I read that part not as Mann's personal views on work ethics but rather as a description of the prevalent attitudes of the now lost age, which Mann actually ridicules by calling work "the most estimable thing in the world" etc.
There does seem to be an intractable superstition that people somehow cause their illness, in traditional societies by committing a sin, in Mann's magical world by just being soft, or in our context that it is caused mainly by stress...we know enough science but still blame the victim to some extent...Mann paints this exotic scene, but uses familiar fallacies that are still pervasive,....magical thinking....
Jason, I found all that info about altitude problems fascinating. It just makes me wonder how I survived our holiday in South Tyrol last year.
Yeah, I'm planning a trip to Denver (probably within the next year) and I wonder how much it'll affect me, as well. I bet most people don't even notice the change, or if they do they acclimate quickly enough (in terms of noticeable symptoms). Your body can probably adjust pretty quietly...unless you're hypersensitive like Hans Castorp.Also, he had some bloody sputum early on in the book, which can't be explained by any of those altitude effects, so there's definitely something going on. I just thought, like you said, that it was interesting.
Mikki wrote: "Now see, I read that as Joachim not having the talent for being sick and therefore having a stronger will to get healthy."Sorry, I condensed that down a bit too far: absolutely, yes, Joachim is no good at being sick, he's impatient to get away, has a strong will, yes.
What I was groping to say was that Behrens sees these manly soldierly qualities of his as lined up against him having a talent for being ill, so my deduction from that was that the image of illness is a kind of surrender, a giving in.
Actually, that's a bit banal. I suppose a lot of people see sickness that way.
·Karen· wrote: "so my deduction from that was that the image of illness is a kind of surrender, a giving in.No, I think you're right. There can be a sense of surrender and when that happens there then takes on a mentality of being the best at being ill. It's like a badge of honor in a way and a hierarchy among the patients soon sets in. I think back to an earlier scene where Joachim and Hans were sharing the dining room with a woman who'd been a lifelong patient, Joachim seemed to take offence at being called a novice with only five months to his credit.
Jason wrote: "Yeah, I'm planning a trip to Denver (probably within the next year) and I wonder how much it'll affect me, as well. I bet most people don't even notice the change, or if they do they acclimate quickly."I used to ski a lot at Telluride and I don't remember there being a long adjustment period though the first time there, the wine did go to my head rather quickly!
Mikki wrote: "Jason wrote: "Yeah, I'm planning a trip to Denver (probably within the next year) and I wonder how much it'll affect me, as well. I bet most people don't even notice the change, or if they do they ..."I did have a problem adjusting when I was in Colorado. Perhaps it hits different people in different ways depending on metabolism. My feet swelled and my breathing was labored so my system didn't like it. This was when I was walking around a bit at Mesa Verde and it was in May. I was only there a couple of days so my body had no time to adjust.
Sue wrote: "I did have a problem adjusting when I was in Colorado. Perhaps it hits different people in different ways depending on metabolism. My feet swelled and my breathing was labored so my system didn't like it."You needed a "rest cure." :P
Jason wrote: "Sue wrote: "I did have a problem adjusting when I was in Colorado. Perhaps it hits different people in different ways depending on metabolism. My feet swelled and my breathing was labored so my sys..."LOL I might never have been cured! Then I never would have been able to join in reading TMM!
Also, he had some bloody sputum early on in the book, which can't be explained by any of those altitude effects, so there's definitely something going on. I just thought, like you said, that it was interesting. Hunh, if that's the blood on the handkerchief, I thought that was from his nosebleed, not coughing up blood. That's more serious and not a part of typical mild altitude sickness.
It also took me a while to twig, but some of what Mann is describing re Hans and lassitude reminds me of a little of the Pale King, and boredom -- the patients don't have TV, but they might as well ("Hans Castorp, you're watching As the World Turns....").
Kris wrote: "I've been hunting high and low, but can't find an ebook version of the Woods translation of TMM to save my life."I'm reading my kobo e-book because the Woods translation book version has such tiny print. My eyes can't take it without giving me a headache.
Kobo doesn't have the Woods translation so now I have 2 versions to compare.
Did anyone notice the mention of yellow teeth again? Shades of Buddenbrooks...
I see you've already mentioned Mann's attention to teeth in the novel. I am a slow reader!! Oops.
Moira wrote: "Hunh, if that's the blood on the handkerchief, I thought that was from his nosebleed, not coughing up blood. That's more serious and not a part of typical mild altitude sickness. "I don't think it was mentioned as to where the blood came from, only that it was on the handkerchief. That's where the story kinda took a small turn for me...
Laima wrote: "I see you've already mentioned Mann's attention to teeth in the novel. I am a slow reader!! Oops."Yes, Laima, so far I've noted Krokowski's yellow teeth, Frau Stohr's rabbit choppers and Grandfathers's lack of any at all (except dentures). Have you found more?
Mikki wrote: "I don't think it was mentioned as to where the blood came from, only that it was on the handkerchief."In Woods it's "....he drew air in through his mouth. When he used his handkerchief, he found red traces of blood, but he did not have the energy to think much about it." If Hans is breathing through his mouth, and "using his handkerchief," that says to me his nose is stopped up, he's wiping his nose with the handkerchief and that's where he sees the blood. It doesn't specify "he coughed into the handkerchief" vs "he wiped his nose with the handkerchief" but I'm inclined towards the latter.
Coughing up blood is a pretty serious symptom of advanced tuberculosis (Keats: "I cannot be deceived in that colour; - that drop of blood is my death warrant; - I must die"). Hans isn't even coughing (yet). If he had coughed blood into the handkerchief, it would be way too early in the story/progress of TB if he actually has it, plus he would freak out.
Yes, I got that and that's what made me start looking at things differently. When you mentioned nosebleed in message #187, I thought I had missed something! Well, health-wise things are changing quickly for Hans that can no longer be attributed to the altitude.I like the Keat's quote!
Mikki wrote: "Well, health-wise things are changing quickly for Hans that can no longer be attributed to the altitude."No, you said 'he had some bloody sputum early on in the book, which can't be explained by any of those altitude effects' -- if he's getting nosebleeds and wiping his nose and seeing blood, that's from the altitude, presumably, not just a symptom of tuberculosis. Coughing up bloody sputum is different.
Hmmmm, no...wasn't me. I'm reading the Wood's version too and don't remember any earlier mention of blood though if anyone else recalls it happening in the story then clue me in because it does change things.
Oh, actually I see now that it was Jason.
Mikki wrote: "Hmmmm, no...wasn't me. I'm reading the Wood's version too and don't remember any earlier mention of blood though if anyone else recalls it happening in the story then clue me in because it does ch..."I don't get a sense Mann writes a mystery story where one careful foreshadowing leads to another hint. Maybe he intended to, but his writing is too dense, happened over too long a period of time, and is too involved in intellectual and political query to carry that off, IMHO. At least over a nose bleed or bloody sputum.
Mod
The blood in the handkerchief incident does not belong to this thread.
It is to everyone's interest to keep the discussions to the sections to which they belong.. Otherwise either spoilers are introduced or things cannot be found later on.
Sorry for this reminder..
:)
Sorry Kalliope,I misunderstood and thought we were to read completely through chapter three!
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Magic Mountain (other topics)The Death of Ivan Ilych (other topics)
The Great Illusion (other topics)
The World of Yesterday (other topics)
I've been wondering from the start if there hasn't been a plot against Hans on the part of his Hamburg doctor and his grand-uncle. They suspected he was ill but didn't think he could handle the news so posted him off to Davos to 'visit' Joachim. His symptoms are constantly referred to. We are left in no doubt that Hans is ill, I think.