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* Week 1 -- August 12 - 18. Read from Chapter 1, "Arrival" (Ankunft) p.3, until Chapter 3 "One Word too Many" p.81
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Traveller
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Aug 11, 2013 03:00PM
Oh, boo. Thanks for the heads-up Kris, at least I can now stop searching. Well, then maybe one can look into getting the paper book, and who knows, the library might have a copy.
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Kim wrote: "In the Woods' translation the sentence reads: "But is not the pastness of a story that much more profound, more complete, more like a fairy tale, the tighter it fits up against the 'before'?"When I think about this it brings to mind 9/11 and the moments right before the 'before'. Though it has been years since that morning when we were standing in the middle of the street at West Broadway and Spring watching planes go through buildings, the story that most New Yorkers tell is what they were doing right before -- every detail is deeply etched in memory and never changing making it seem as if it's a tale that we share among ourselves. I like the way Mann describes stories as being more profound when 'tighter' to the before.
Fionnuala wrote: "I was struck in the early pages by Hans Castorp's innocent belief that his stay in Davos would only be for a short period, then the slow realisation that most of the inmates have to stay much longer..."There is a lot of foreshadowing in the Arrival chapter -- the trip being too long for just a 3 wk stay, Hans plans to go back unchanged and questioning whether his non-stop travelling will prove detrimental to his health.
I so look forward to our official start date Monday August 12....and the rarefied atmosphere of TMM
Traveller wrote: "No, I agree, I don't think it will be in the public domain. I buy from kobo usually, if not kindle, but now I can't make out who the translator of the Kobo copy is. Let me go see at Nook..."Ohh, is there a Luke translation of MM? I thought he did the best translation of D in V.
Lily wrote: "Moira wrote: "...And Hans Castorp's name is a reference to Clever Hans, right?..."Moira -- refresh my memory on who is "Clever Hans." Another fictional character, like in the Dutch story? Or do ..."
Duh, not Clever Hans - I think I got that mixed up with the horse! Hans in Luck, is the fairytale.
Some kinda archaic translations: 1, 2
I got my pitons! I got my boots and ice axe! I got my Woods! I....oh ghod this is going to be like when those poor bastards went up on Everest and got stranded, isn't it
Moira wrote: "I got my pitons! I got my boots and ice axe! I got my Woods! I....oh ghod this is going to be like when those poor bastards went up on Everest and got stranded, isn't it"WOW! rflol! @2am here. Think I'll go look for the Perseid meteor shower.
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That is the version I have of D in V. Edition with other stories as well and very good introduction.
Anyway, Monday in Europe... Good climb to everyone...
Kalliope wrote: "Moira wrote: "Traveller wrote: "No, I agree, I don't think it will be in the public domain. I buy from kobo usually, if not kindle, but now I can't make out who the translator of the Kobo copy is...."Argh. I always wish I had a Nook, not a Kindle. Oh well.
Elena wrote: "I so look forward to our official start date Monday August 12....and the rarefied atmosphere of TMM"I seemed to have jumped the gun - sorry everyone - I always used to get dates mixed up at school...
Moira wrote: "Ohh, is there a Luke translation of MM? I thought he did the best translation of D in V. .."I apologize! Silly Amazon went and included DIV with the offerings they have of Magic Mountain, and I was so intent on seeing who the translator is on the Kindle edition, that I never looked at the title until after I had posted my message. Sorry! *Does face-palm on self, and looks at Amazon balefully*
PS. There are quite a lot of English translations of DIV, actually, but I suspect that for MM it's just those two?
It's only those two that I know of, Trav.
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Same in Europe.
As I was mentioning to a wonderful friend, it's interesting that there are so many translations and editions with essays (and a gob-smacking amount of essays!) on Death In Venice; and yet only these two translations of The Magic Mountain; although there is of course the Harold Bloom critical edition; but that is still nothing compared to DIV.
I just got started today, and am reading on my porch in 95° weather. The description of his journey up the mountain was a welcome coolant. Did anyone notice in the chapter on his life and moral state after the death of his grandfather the sentence about the state of his teeth?"his teeth, which were rather soft and subject to damage, had been repaired with gold inlays.". Again with the teeth! I wonder if this will be a recurring observation on some of the characters as it was in Buddenbrooks"
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Definitely, Diane! The teeth will be a recurring observation, I think -- and aren't dreams of teeth falling out related by some psychologists to fear of (or thoughts of) death?
it is interesting how these leitmotivs from Buddenbrooks recur in a more subtle form in TMM.....I read this one as a sign of inner decay...
Kris wrote: "Definitely, Diane! The teeth will be a recurring observation, I think -- and aren't dreams of teeth falling out related by some psychologists to fear of (or thoughts of) death?"I didn't realize that. I thought it was a dream theme that was provoked by general anxiety (not necessarily about a fear of death).
I see my feeling of wanting to skip all the fine detail regarding the looks and clothing of the characters is not a good idea: evidently I should be paying attention to these!... I remember when reading the part about the soft teeth, thinking : TMI! Evidently not.
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Elena wrote: "it is interesting how these leitmotivs from Buddenbrooks recur in a more subtle form in TMM.....I read this one as a sign of inner decay..."If I remember right, there was also something wrong with the boy's teeth in Death in Venice.
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Ulrike wrote: "Elena wrote: "it is interesting how these leitmotivs from Buddenbrooks recur in a more subtle form in TMM.....I read this one as a sign of inner decay..."If I remember right, there was also something wrong with the boy's teeth in Death in Venice. ..."
You're right! Besides his weak lungs,we are told that: Tadzio's teeth were less than attractive: a bit jagged and pale, lacking the gleam of health, and with that brittle, transparent quality sometimes found in anemics.
And if you search teeth in the text, you will see them prominently emerging in most of Mann's character descriptions. The part about Tadzio's teeth actually leads on to a passage that I found exceedingly interesting.
He is very frail, he is sickly, thought Aschenbach. He'll probably not live long. And he made no attempt to account for why he felt satisfied or consoled at the thought.
I found myself puzzling over what that meant : was Aschenbach feeling satisfied that Tadzio would not live longer than he, Aschenbach, or was he glad that Tadzio would not age and lose his beauty?(Sorry, I know this is the MM discussion)
Traveller wrote: "The part about Tadzio's teeth actually leads on to a passage that I found exceedingly interesting.He is very frail, he is sickly, thought Aschenbach. The part about Tadzio's teeth actually leads on to a passage that I found exceedingly interesting.
He is very frail, he is sickly, thought Aschenbach. He'll probably not live long. And he made no attempt to account for why he felt satisfied or consoled at the thought.
...
Hmmm, interesting indeed. I had a quick check on the original text for "He'll probably not live long." which is "Er wird wahrscheinlich nicht alt werden." If we go by the literal translation ("He will probably not grow old.") I would be inclined believe he is glad that he will not lose his beauty or be otherwise spoiled by age and life.
Anyways, back to MM...
I also thought Hans conversation with Joachim on their hike about his passion for smoking was interesting. This was written long before anyone knew how harmful it was, but it seemed to portray Hans as a very shallow young man who only cared for pleasure and ease. And earlier the narrator descibed him as a mediocre person.
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Diane wrote: "I also thought Hans conversation with Joachim on their hike about his passion for smoking was interesting. This was written long before anyone knew how harmful it was, but it seemed to portray Han..."Yes, that was interesting point in the conversation between the two.
Also, the narrator does go through quite an effort to convey just how mediocre Hans is.
There is a passage in "Bei Tienappels" where Hans'preference for leisure time (or smoking his cigar) over work is described. Not far above it there is also a theory how physical health if affected by one's personal life being subjected to time limitations. (Not sure if I translated/understood the concept right here.)
There is also another interesting statement where the narrator proposes that a human being doe not just live an individual life but, consciously or unconsciously, also lives the live of his whole generation.
So, when Mann makes Hans a mediocre, slightly shallow, pleasure-seeking protagonist, does he mean to characterize the whole generation?
Kris wrote: "That translation of mediocre is one that Symington questioned. When I get home I'll look for the passage so we can see what Ulrike and Karen think."Mann is using "mittelmäßig" and "Mittelmäßigkeit" which in my mind is very much "mediocre" and "mediocrity".
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The mention of his soft teeth being subject to damage made me think of his overall character as lacking in strength and fortitude -- work not agreeing with him and preference for leisure. When first meeting Herr Settembrini he exclaims that he really only feels healthy when doing nothing at all making him well suited to his current environment; he's malleable and that is were the damage will set in.
Diane wrote: "Again with the teeth! I wonder if this will be a recurring observation on some of the characters as it was in Buddenbrooks" "I didn't read Buddenbrooks, but man, there was a definite Dentition Theme in Death in Venice (the long pointy teeth of the original guide, Tadzio's teeth don't look good, I think the gondolier's teeth make an appearance, &c &c). -- and OH yeah, the horrifying denture slippage. 'Your sweetheart! Your sweetheart!'
Traveller wrote: "I found myself puzzling over what that meant : was Aschenbach feeling satisfied that Tadzio would not live longer than he, Aschenbach, or was he glad that Tadzio would not age and lose his beauty?(Sorry, I know this is the MM discussion) "I WILL TALK DEATH IN VENICE WITH YOU ANYTIME, I LOVED IT SO. Yeah, that was really puzzling -- is that right before or right after he doesn't tell Tadzio's mummy about the cholera? There was an interesting essay that argued Gustav's silence, his culpability, is the real 'sin,' not his desire. I think he doesn't have the Walpurgisnachtmare (hah) until after he decides he won't say anything.
I really wonder if Tadzio dies after the end or not. He's transfigured into Hermes the psychopomp, and it's hard to tell whether Gustav constantly thinking Tadzio doesn't look that healthy is objective observation, or projection. After the HoYay moment of wrestling with the young stand-in for Gustav Tadzio doesn't sound that healthy, either.
Ulrike wrote: "I had a quick check on the original text for "He'll probably not live long." which is "Er wird wahrscheinlich nicht alt werden." If we go by the literal translation ("He will probably not grow old.") I would be inclined believe he is glad that he will not lose his beauty or be otherwise spoiled by age and life. "Ulrike, you are so neat. (Also that's like 'whom the gods love, die young...')
Kris wrote: "aren't dreams of teeth falling out related by some psychologists to fear of (or thoughts of) death? "I thiiink (Interpretation of Dreams?) Freud says dreams of teeth falling out signal a fear of impotence. Heh.
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Now I also seriously wonder if Mann had dental problems, like Joyce's stomach or Proust's eyes....AHA: Cambridge Introduction to Thomas Mann: His teeth and partial dentures caused discomfort and made it difficult for him to eat; in his final years Mann lived on little more than soup and caviar.... and then Google Books cut me off. But that's interesting.
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I thiiink (Interpretation of Dreams?) Freud says dreams of teeth falling out sign..."
Anxiety = impotence = death. Yep. :)
Ulrike wrote: "So, when Mann makes Hans a mediocre, slightly shallow, pleasure-seeking protagonist, does he mean to characterize the whole generation? "I also gotta wonder how much he's intended to contrast with Joachim -- the two of them are contrasted almost immediately, Joachim has been at the sanitarium longer and is initiating (heh, heh) Hans into the customs of the....it's not an Underworld, is it. Uberworld? Upperworld?
Kris wrote: "Would you all like it if we opened a discussion thread on Death in Venice too? I think quite a few of us have read it and would like to talk about it at length. We could still make comparisons with..."That would be great, Kris. Eventually I'd like to get to all of his shorter works.
Kris wrote: "Would you all like it if we opened a discussion thread on Death in Venice too? I think quite a few of us have read it and would like to talk about it at length. We could still make comparisons with..."Oh man, I'd love it. I love that book, and I'm really sorry I missed out on the earlier Buddenbrooks discussion, which sounds like it was great.
Kris wrote: "Anxiety = impotence = death. Yep. :)"Sometimes a denture is just a denture? (If teeth = virility, false teeth = Viagra?)
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Oh man, I'd love it. I love that book, and I'm really sorry I missed out on the earlier Buddenbrooks discussion, which sounds like it was great. "
I'm touching base with Kall, and then if it sounds good to her I'll create a thread tomorrow. :)
"'She calls it a stirletto -- isn't that capital!'" Wow, the slang in this seems, uh, sort of antiquated. Is it like that in the German?JOACHIM: //heartbreaking little passage on how his life is passing him by and he's stagnating up in the mountains 'like an old water hole, a stinking pond'
HANS: //close to passing out Hey dude, do they serve porter here?
-- I have to believe Hans is providing some sort of relief for Joachim's character at this point. Otherwise I am going to drown him in a bucket. I guess if Hans = Parsifal Joachim = Agloval de Galis? Hans is definitely the holy fool.
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JOACHIM: //heartbreaking little passage on how his life is..."
At this stage, Hans is still way too attached to his bourgeois remedies. :)
I keep picturing Hans as sort of pretty but not that bright!
Moira wrote: "Kris wrote: "Anxiety = impotence = death. Yep. :)"Sometimes a denture is just a denture? (If teeth = virility, false teeth = Viagra?)"
I definitely want a "like" button!
I think Mann's playing us a little with the definition of Hans as 'mediocre' -- which he kind of holds off on at least three times -- I don't doubt Ulrike's translation, but I think Mann is sort of teasing about the difference between mediocre and the median. Hans isn't blindingly smart, but he's not stupid either; he has the good life and he likes it (the butter rolls! the pastel shirts with uncreased cuffs!); he's in school basically to train for some well-paying career he's not that interested in (can we say M.B.A.?)....if he were a modern guy, he'd probably be the kind who turns the TV set on as soon as he walks into a room and knows all the punchlines in 'Friends.' Mann hints Hans could be maybe a good artist, but he lacks the drive to forge himself into a genius (unlike someone named, say, THOMAS) and he's not willing to sacrifice his creature comforts to find out if he's really good or not. He likes his booze, he likes his cigars, he doesn't have a great attention span, he's Joe Average (or should we say, Johannes Mittler*. Heh, heh). Right now, he's like the control group, compared to Joachim, and Joachim isn't really that different from him, except Joachim has been stuck in the rarefied air (in several senses) the past six months in a kind of medical monastery. Hans reminds me of nothing so much as that nasty Biblical put-down: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. But that's not really his....fault, exactly.
Maybe he's growing on me, some. Hah!
*probably totally the wrong word
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