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Peer reviews? As in self published writers reviewing other self published writers?The one thing I have learned in the past ten years by observation and reading, readers who are not writers pay very little attention to reviews from writers, unless the writer is already established as someone they trust.
As a reader, I can tell you I pay very little attention to the rating and review systems on Amazon, Goodreads, B&N, etc. I just can't trust them to give me a fair review, especially when it comes from a self published writer reviewing another self published writer. This is not to say that the self published writer giving the review is biased, just that I am selective, due to my past experiences.
I still prefer recommendations from friends, family and associates I trust to know my taste in reading. I also look for reviews in my local News Paper, (The Washington Post), and blogs that I follow where someone mentions they tried a new book. Especially if the blogger or their follower is not a writer...
Word of mouth is still the biggest sales tool writers have. Also, since 56% of all books sold in the US last year were sold in book stores, having your physical book in stores instead of sitting in a box in your garage, increases your sale potential a lot.
Nick wrote: "Peer reviews? As in self published writers reviewing other self published writers?The one thing I have learned in the past ten years by observation and reading, readers who are not writers pay v..."
Thanks Nick. Would your feeling about the review change if it came from a peer review board established to weed through Indie books and help readers discover Indie gems versus one writer reviewing another writer?
Well established review sites already exist; NY TIMES, Washington Post, L.A. Times, and may other publications that are well known and respected. There are also a ton of blogs that review self published writers, by readers who do not write. Though with all the drama self published writers create by responding to reviews, there are fewer and fewer who want to get involved. Still, we don't need another review board, IMHO...What self published writers do need is to stop rushing to publish before they are ready. Readers want work that equals or surpasses what commercial publishers put out. That means good book covers and not just some copy and past over-the-counter stuff. It means professional editing and this is the biggest complaint by readers, the editing was so bad they could not finish the book. That is never a good thing for a writer, no matter who publishes them.
The way I feel about publishing, is if the writer does not take themself seriously, then why should the reader...
Now, before anyone says mean ole Nick just hates self published writers, not true. What ole Nick hates is poorly written work that does not live up to the publishing standards I expect.
Right now on my Kindle Fire, I have 25 novels by self published writers. That is 25 out of about 2000 I have sampled over the past five years. Those 25 hooked me with their cover design that was not slap and paste. The writing was smooth and well edited. Their stories were fresh and hit a sweet spot with this reader. They stay in my Kindle library, the others got dumped...
As to Indie publishers, the term is being hi-jacked by self published writers and readers really do not know who to trust anymore...
This is a bit negative, Nick. I can understand anyone feeling negative, but surely caution and scepticism is wise with any new form? I'm sure you know that the first novels to appear in the 18th century were received with a great degree of suspicion.I agree with you that any book in the public domain needs to be properly proof-read and edited, at the very least.
However, with regard to reviewing, in my experience (which is brief)eminent publications such as NY TIMES, Washington Post, L.A. Times (or the local equivalents in the UK, where I live) are unlikely to review eBooks by indie writers, due in large part to the sheer volume of works available.
So it seems to me that some form of peer review, as described by the OP, may be the only way for some books to become visible on sites such as Amazon, and thus to sell any copies all.
I'm very skeptical of reviews from any publications (newspapers) anymore. For years I have read the Wall Street Journal and on occasion purchased a book based on a review. In every single case the book was a waste of money. These aren't reviews, rather they are paid advertisement disguised as opinion. The final straw that sealed my opinion of these so called reviews was an experience my father in-law had based on reviews from these "eminent" publications. Based on a review he purchased Custer he spent $30 and then wasted several hours reading this trash.
I looked at this book on Amazon and Goodreads, few regular readers rated or reviewed this book favorably. Those with a real knowledge or passion for the subject were outraged. Overall the only favorable and glowing reviews came from the "eminent" publications and hired reviews (publishers have staff that spends their days writing glowing reviews of books they are promoting).
The majority of the so called professional reviews and best seller lists are marketing tools designed to sell books versus actually measuring and reflecting the quality of books. Not that there are any shortages of articles or examples in the book industry but this recent article shows how the music lists are also a sham. How to Reach Number 1
How to Reach Number 1
For reviews I suggest sticking with friends, book bloggers you trust, and check out what Goodreads has to say. It has been said with good reason that, "Goodreads is where author's egos go to die." I've found the reviews here to be of far better value than anywhere else.
Marc, I think that now I would use a mixture of word of mouth, newspaper reviews (The Guardian) and online reviews.For fantasy and other genre fiction, I find online review sites (including fan sites) and blogs very useful. Speaking in this instance as a reader rather than a writer.
Jessica wrote: "This is a bit negative, Nick. I can understand anyone feeling negative, but surely caution and scepticism is wise with any new form? I'm sure you know that the first novels to appear in the 18th ce..."More and more publications are reviewing ebooks seperately. The NY Times even rants them like they do print books...
I find the frustration of reviews interesting. I read quite a bit, and just like the books, the reviews are a product of talent. I read the reviews, but I only pay attention to the well written reviews, the ones that discuss POV, writing style, complex plot evaluation, efficiency of the writing. I use reviews a lot, and have learned to review the reviews. JMO.
I tend to slide right past indie boards, indie blogs, indie organizations and indie individuals reviewing or rating books. I might make an exception if a board consisted of experienced copyeditors rating whether or not a work was ready to be published. There is just so very much out there and so many new arrivals bombarding us daily ...I could also care less what the newspaper and other publication critics have to say, including New York Times, Kirkus Reviews, Publisher's Weekly, etc.
My reading selection is from books in genres I like with descriptions that sound like I would enjoy. Book covers can say to me "this is genre" whatever and draw me to look at a description - but I have never held a bad cover against an author. Word of mouth by real friends and by friends/authorsI find on gr to have my same tastes in books can cause me to read something. Sporadically a ranting or raving review will make me look into a book (sometimes the 1-star detailed review hits on some element reviewer hates but that I enjoy in a story). Where available in ebook form, I do first read a sample.
I think when you talk about peer reviews or peer review boards that most of us think "ah...another way of gaming the system" -- like all the you-tag-mine and I'll-tag-yours drives and you-review-mine/I'll-review-yours nonsense on amazon that so gamed the system and has made us leery of amazon.
The book description and the details in reviews hold more weight than anything else after that all important word of friend's mouth. If you can get a goodreads group to choose the book as a BOTM, Buddy Read, PenPal Read, etc. -- then those discussions are very much if use to my judging if it's a book I want to read (and tend to give more detail than reviews -- caution with groups, every one of them have their own rules on author participation and promotion).
And I'm onto the self/indie published authors that file papers to be a publisher ( frequently so their book doesn't say "createspace" as the publisher). As a reader, publisher does not = author; publisher = a multi-employee company staffed with professionals like copyeditors and marketing personnel that free up the author to write while they handle the rest.
Don't overlook the importance of the book description or what the free sample or flipping thru first few pages indicates to potential reader.
And don't mistake potential reader or goodreads member for your marketing target. Just because there are more than 500M books on goodreads does not mean all of us are interested in all of them.. Frankly, I stopped reviewing and deleted all my reviews and ratings because I got tired of being hunted by authors relentlessly promoting. Some goodreads members are here to just catalog their books and never browse or have any interest in the social side of goodreads. Others are very active in rating, reviewing, group book discussions, etc. but don't aren't on goodreads because they want thousands of authors screaming at them for attention all the time.
I do give indies a read/chance but by no longer reviewing and by being one of those readers where egregious copyediting mistakes throw me out of the story flow -- despite buying books, I'm not the best audience for indie books. I have found a handful of gems and favorite authors among the indie stuff which is why I still try at least a sampling; but, frankly, 98% of what I try definitely were not ready to be published, less than 1% are the "gems" I find, and the rest I just did not like.
Thanks for the feedback Debbie. I was not aware of how authors were using GR to bombard readers. I can see how that would be annoying! It was nice to hear that a good title, cover and description are still the way that readers find properly categorized books. That's how I have always found books too. Though recently I got burned because the book was not categorized.It's a funny story. I was at a book fair/ multi-author reading. The ticket price included a book by one of the bestselling authors that the fair organizer had brought in from all over the country. I browsed the selection table, excited to discover an author new to me, and stumbled across a great title and cover. Just the type is story I go for. I read the description and was completely sold. I didn't bother to peruse the first few pages. No need. This book was perfect! Then I got home and discovered it was erotica! I don't read erotica. Nothing in the cover, title or even the description hinted that the material inside was pornographic. I'm no prude, so I gave it a read, but didn't like the gratuitous sex interrupting the flow of the story. Then, I just shook my head and thought: it is a good thing that books are inexpensive because most of the time, you don't know whether you're going to like it until after you've already consumed it!
To Rabidreader and Debbie O'Neal - it's very interesting to hear what readers - who are, after all, the people that authors wish to reach! - think of the current situation.Having been published by a traditional publishing house in the early Noughties, I am aware of the stark contrast as an indie (or hybrid?) author trying to find readers for my book.
It is difficult to find a source of serious or responsible reviews. As a consumer or reader, I always used to rely on UK Broadsheet newspapers like 'The Guardian', or magazines such as SFX and Starburst for SF&F novels.
Now the sheer volume of material available is so overwhelming that I am not surprised that readers are put off. In indie publishing, there is a state of almost total anarchy (in almost a political sense). It is very hard to find what, if any, books one wants to read, and I do rely on recommendations and references from friends.
But I wonder - from looking at indie best-sellers - whether the market for indie eBooks is in fact a new or perhaps newly-formed readership? Not purely defined by age, but certainly cognisant with computers, computer games and the internet. Looking for a good read and being themselves voracious readers weaned on (good) books such as the Harry Potter series. And avid for more!
I'm in my 50s and have always been conservative about what I read (not politically or socially conservative - just fussy). Now I'm rather overwhelmed by the thought that not only are there a mass of traditionally published books out there that I would like to read but also (help) probably quite a few indie books as well!
Sorry for the long post. As a coda, I should add that I think authors should try not to spam 'civilians' if they can avoid it. Because most authors are readers too, after all!
Nick wrote: "Peer reviews? As in self published writers reviewing other self published writers?The one thing I have learned in the past ten years by observation and reading, readers who are not writers pay v..."
Nick,
Where did you get the 56%? If you are referring to brick and mortar stores (and I assume you are since you reference a physical copy of a book), that percentage is inaccurate.
*source for correct info would be 2012 or 2013 U.S. Book Consumer Demographics & Buying Behaviors
Rabid reader, you are reading professional reviews, then, not consumer reviews. I'm not sure that many legit readers post reviews that discuss the POV or background integration or other writing techniques. Your comment is helpful because it shows how a reader uses a review. It also may influence how I review books I read going forward. I usually just review the quality of the plot (drama, suspense, humor) and whether the story kept me engrossed or made me think or left me changed in some way. But that review just tells whether the book was a good idea, not whether it was well executed. The execution is usually the problem with many books, even some of the traditionally published ones that gave me buyer's remorse.
Erin wrote: "Nick wrote: "Peer reviews? As in self published writers reviewing other self published writers?The one thing I have learned in the past ten years by observation and reading, readers who are not ..."
Here in the US I will go with Publishers Weekly who get their stats from the ABA reports...
Thanks for the feedback, the back and forth is interesting. Shavon ... what constitutes a professional review? One of the reviews that really struck a chord was a reviewer of the "A Discovery of Witches" by Harkness. The review went into plot and POV, then they talked about "lean" writing, which was very interesting. I say this because I really liked the books, and they are long, but I thought they flowed very well and read fast. But when i compared Harkness' style to much of the stuff out there, I found it efficient and fairly concise. I recently gave up on Inferno for that reason, too much Art/Architecture history, not enough actual story. I thought the Harkness review was well done, but I thought it was a well read/informed reader. I read a similar review (after actually reading the book reviewed), the post actually made me see the book differently ... until I read the review, it hadn't really dawned on me the the story lacked a good plot and was more of a series of events strung together (note: the book reviewed is part of a NYT bestseller list and is currently being developed into a series of movies). I've started writing reviews taking into account similar topics. I will also say that I've been using reviews for education ... as I've just finished a trilogy of books myself (authored). I wanted to know what readers looked for in popular books.
http://shavonjones.com/2013/07/how-mu...