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Do you know what a genre really is?
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Hear hear! To know a genre, you have to read lots of work in it. Absorb the (mainly) unwritten rules and conventions. These aren't a shackle, any more than the fact that the human vocal range is about 3.5 octaves shackled Verdi or Puccini. They are merely a set of guidlelines within which the story may unfold.I would agree that SF should have a core of hard science and plausible extrapolation.
To me, fantasy implies magic - i.e. the control of powers by unexplained means - casting spells, hurling fireballs and the like.
Horror involves an elementof the supernatural (which means it would be difficult to have SF/horror, because although horrific, everything in an SF work should be capable of being explained as natural by the science involved.
Any good boook in any genre should have action, thrills, romance and humour. I suppose it's the degree to which each is present that leads a book to be classed as belonging to a genre it was not intended to be a member of.
I really hate to say it, but... Jason X
And I disagree. A book is a book is a book, genre is simply a label. It's only significance is to act as a filter to enable potential readers sort through the quagmire of countless choices before them.And therein lies the problem. Using (some of) my own work as an example, they are Science fiction. I take a popular myth and try and construct a plausible hypothesis to explain it in real scientific terms.
However, these stories are written in the format of classic Murder Mysteries (with a romantic string). If I refer to them as Science Fiction, lovers of Murder Mysteries will not consider them, although they may well enjoy them. The reverse applies to readers of Science Fiction. If I call them both, everyone steers clear.
Yes, this is only a marketing issue, but it is a real one and as I said at the start, genre is only a marketing tool - nothing more.
Orson Scott Card's book How To Write Science Fiction and Fantasy gives a first rate, and astonishingly broad definition of the genre, and if everyone read it, they'd save themselves a lot of time trying to extrapolate...Kevin, by your definition, Asimov's The Gods Themselves might not qualify as Science Fiction because it deals with a scientifically impossible equation (which works in a parallel world) and scientifically unlike sex where three Soft Ones get together to make a Hard One.
How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy
Ah, labels. I must admit a fascination with people and their need to label every single thing. You are forced to define yourself by the options on a simple form. You can't choose the generic label-human being-you must be black or white or brown or red or Asian or not of Hispanic descent. And they wonder why racism won't go away.The same with books: your work must be defined somehow, for marketing purposes if nothing else, but still you are forced to pigeonhole your work according to someone else's list of variables. Who makes up these labels?
Now, I'm not saying it's wrong necessarily to label things. Still, I can't help but wonder if everything in life lately isn't suffering from extreme labelism-the urgent desire to improve upon general labels by creating even more subcategories of labels.
My thinking on this in regards to my own work is to write, free of any thoughts of labels. My goal is to create my own niche and let those who would, worry about what labels fit or don't.
If you think about it, what good story, no matter what label is slapped upon it, doesn't have conflict, a bit of humor, a touch of romance, some fantasizing, perhaps even an unsolved murder or two. Come to think of it, what single human life doesn't incorporate some or all of these elements?
You may call my work cross genre. I'm happy with that label--for now:)
Mari
I don't mind labels, but I can't get worked up to defend the need to have them. It doesn't matter to me if something is classed as sf, but in reality is a crime thriller set in space. If it's any good I'll read it and if it isn't I won't, no matter what genre it says on the back cover. As I writer I'll get a bit more worked up by the publishers' desire to pinhole, but then again it's one of the things about writing that you need to understand the market, so it's best to just do it and quit whining.Having said that I think the simplest genre definition that sucks up the most books in the quickest way is one that can be applied to any genre and asks what's left if you take something out. Take out the science from an sf novel and ask what's left. If the answer is still a coherent story then it's not sf. If there's nothing that works then it's sf as the science is fundamental to the story. Same elsewhere, take out the scary bits and if there's nothing that works it's horror etc. Take out the comedy from a funny book... etc etc
Genres draw readers and make books easier to sell. They also impose limitations on the writer, especially if s/he is writing for a publisher with very strict rules for what belongs within their version of the genre and what doesn't.My mountain adventure story "The Sun Singer" lost readers because the publisher labeled it "fantasy." This meant that readers who disliked fantasy would't look at it, and those who loved traditional fantasy didn't find in it what they expected.
So desperate are publishers for the comfortable prison of the genre, that they are now calling literary fiction a genre. If one loves gallows humor, calling literary fiction a genre is an amusing paradox for it is the very absence of genre.
I read very few genre books because I dislike rules and labels and limitations definitions always bring to what they define. I'm more comfortable with a book that can be anything. But then, I always sail against the wind.
Rowena wrote: "Orson Scott Card's book How To Write Science Fiction and Fantasy gives a first rate, and astonishingly broad definition of the genre, and if everyone read it, they'd save themselves a ..."If the science is even a theory it's acceptible to me. However, if the story has nothing in any relation to any kind of science - sociological, psychological, physical, mathematical - then I won't consider it science fiction.
The most recent incarnation of Doctor Who was Harry Potter fiction 90% of the time, lacking any and all scientific elements, while relying on the magic wand "sonic screwdriver".
I love Doctor Who but most of the RTD Doctor was simply fantasy.
Every single book is part of a genre. The fact that people mislabel the genre of the book is what causes the problems. Genre simply means a descriptive term for the situations covered within the book title.
As writers, we instinctively dislike our work being labeled, but don't blame the publishers. You walk into a shop with 20,000 titles on the shelves and you want to find something to read...The labels are necessary, however much we dislike them.
See I just don't buy that. Writers should own their labels. Writers should own our labels, know what we're talking about, be upfront with our readers.
And there you go, Kevin, making more rules when there are too many already. Writers write. We're stuck with the labels because it's not the writers' mindsets who need to change, but the consumers, the readers, who've been conditioned to these labels. To my way of thinking, creating your own niche is the only way to rise above the labels in use today. And that's what I'm aiming for, to create my own niche. Then the only label that matters will be all mine. Until then, all I can do is persevere.Mari
You do realize that a niche is a label, right? :)
Kevin, if you want people to buy your work, you need to give them direction, and direction that they can relate to and will understand.
I just think that if an author knows the genre of their work, and explicitly describe it to their reader in the introduction, it will further strengthen the relationship between the author and the reader.In the end, the Publisher and the Retailer have 0 say in what the Author puts in the introduction.
So if I wanted to say:
This is Science Detective Fiction Novel, you will see forensic science used by the main character.
as the first sentence of the introduction, the reader will instantly know the concept of your writing and your book. This will make it far easier for picky readers to appeal to your writing ^_^
Or my writing to attract picky readers - but then I don't do introductions, I'm a lazy sod.
Kevin said: You do realize that a niche is a label, right? :)Absolutely, yet it's not a label created by someone else, but rather one of my own making--built by my work.
Which would you rather have?
Mari
I love introductions because a good introduction is like a firm but welcoming handshake to your reader or to the author :D
So don't rely on the labels created by the publisher. Know your own label, own your own label and people will respect you as an author and your work far more!
Knowing your own label IS essential. However, I think the problem with own labels is that you have to become really well-known before you can market yourself by your own label. That's what genres are for in the meantime- to help you and your readers get on your respective feet.
If you don't have a definable genre, people label you as a 'progressive' writer, or some such name, for lack of a better word. Upshot: nobody wants to go within a mile of what you've written.
Malcolm said:
"I read very few genre books because I dislike rules and labels and limitations definitions always bring to what they define."
Then you're missing out on a lot- genres are put on the work AFTER it's written, not before.
The problem is the best books transcend genre. Describing them is hard, elevator pitches and synopses impossible.
Therefore, the 'non-genre' of literary fiction :).
Pretty much. My latest novel has werewolves, ghosts, lunar colonies, and romance, but I can't describe it. My published novels are fantasy, but with the same problem.
Maybe this DOES call for a case of rebranding a la Kevin. Paranormal sci-fi? Urban para-sci-fi? No, wait, I've got it! Pi-fi! P for paranormal, 'pi' for the greek letter used in maths (so it's still sciency) and fi to relate it more to science fiction...I guess it just depends on what element of the story drives it on. The one that you can't take out because it'll collapse. Like Ian (Post 7) said.
Or you could publish it without a genre? Elizabeth Knox had the same problem, I believe, and I think this solution worked for her.
On a side note, as part of the main conversation, does anybody know what constitues urban fantasy? I do have an idea that it has to be in the city and involve some element of Faerieland... But does that exclude werewolves, ghosts, etc?
Wait, lol. Do the last two of your posts mean you describe your books as the best books? ha ha.
Marc wrote: "Pretty much. My latest novel has werewolves, ghosts, lunar colonies, and romance, but I can't describe it. My published novels are fantasy, but with the same problem."it depends on how it's presented.
I have "wolf people" in my books, but they are scientifically explained, and not the anne rice or world of darkness crap of "spiritual exchanges etc..."
Rather, in both my superhero world and my sci fi world, "wolf people" are merely people who have either evolutionarily developed or were genetically manipulated to have 40%-60% of their "normal bone skeletal structure" comprised of cartilage and tightened sinew and muscle. All of which bends or relaxes upon "transformation". Unlike supernatural "were wolves" my "wolf people" do not gain in size. That would be a physiological impossibility. Rather they shrink (which is in accordance with everything written pre 1980 back to the greeks). Their body hair is agitated due to a chemical flush through their skin. Hair on the head is lost when the skin tightens and opens up. It "regrows" when stimulated (rubbed on the head) after the chemical flush that brings them back to human appearance.
Obviously there's a little bit of a leap of faith with it, but I try to explain more of the biology than even the best warp core engine explanation for star trek ;D
If it's a fantasy oriented "werewolf" then it would just be science fantasy, or if it's like mine I just keep it as regular science fiction.
Sometimes I call my superhero stories : Superhero Sci-Fi or High Adventure (depending on whether or not I have science in that story).
I was more interested in the people who became werewolves than in the werewolves. They're great killing machines but as characters they lack depth.
Lol, Kevin, that's pretty cool. Just make sure you don't flunk biology like Stephenie Meyer did. She went into the chromosome thing and it got really weird, and now there are a ton of posts on the net dedicated to bringing her down for this and other reasons. James Patterson did well with his Maximum Ride series, though. Anyway.
Marc, I think Kevin's got the right idea. What type of readers are you trying to attract?
His werewolves are werewolves the way J.R. Ward's Black Dagger Brotherhood are vampires. And I do have an explanation of the science behind warp drive, by the way.However, I don't write scifi. I write novels about people who happen to be werewolves. My explanation for the lupe curse is spiritual rather than scientific, which is half the trouble for the hero, who keeps expecting a scientific explanation and ultimately resorts to Shakespeare. In any event, I write to please me first, not to attract any type of reader unless they're like me. My main rule is not to do (or in this case, read) something I've seen before. I can promise my readers at least that much.
Stephanie wrote: "Lol, Kevin, that's pretty cool. Just make sure you don't flunk biology like Stephenie Meyer did. She went into the chromosome thing and it got really weird, and now there are a ton of posts on the ..."wow yeah I don't think chromosomes work in that way.
I tried to base my models more on the genetic coding than anything, I still leave some blanks and you need to make a small leap of faith but that's true with all science fiction before it loses the fiction.
One of my science things for my sci-fi universe though does wind up into a major conflict with hawking physicists, but considering that I've been vindicated multiple times by real science in the last 5 years, I've got no regrets challenging the Hawking Theories of Thermodynamics }]D
Marc:
Then you're really in the Fantasy side of things. Contemporary Fantasy is one of many genre titles I've seen that covers what you're talking about. Also seen Fantasy Horror. etc...
Shakespeare was very "scientific" throughout portions of his work in so far that he compared his creatures directly to real life constants. It "looks like prose" but did you know you can actually calculate how fast Puck can run?
I call it Poetic Science. He also used a lot of historic values in his prose, so maybe Historic Poety is another useful term.
;D
Check out Asimov's Guide to Shakespeare! It's on my bookshelf if you want to click the link and order it from wherever that book order links.
For those who are curious- Shakespeare inadvertantly states that Puck can indeed travel at 37,500mph ^_^
Go Puck!Anyway. Yeah, contemporary fantasy sounds about right. Could you explain those lunar colonies, though? Cause I thought they were an important part of your story, though you've hardly mentioned them at all. Now I'm confused.
Like I asked before, as a side issue, does anyone know what urban fantasy needs to be considered urban fantasy?
i don't like the term urban for anything, it's the most generalized term of recent history. But I do know it appeals to the young white kids - yes, the demographics are young white urbanite kids (or so i read).It was a same article that talked about twilight and its appeal.
so I imagine anything that has a "homey" house on every corner with a picket fence feel to it.
Well, it's just that I've read stuff like Charles de Lint's The Blue Girl, and that's called urban fantasy. And then there's stuff like Holly Black's Tithe.It seems to involve cities, teenagers, 'teenage behaviour' and fairies. But that's all I've got.
Could you explain those lunar colonies, though? The werewolves live in the lunar colony, because it's the one place in the system where they don't change. Until the day they find two bodies on the Moon, on their colony, clearly the victims of a werewolf attack. The hero of the story is Earth's foremost werewolf hunter, assigned to the case, unaware that the people he's trying to help are the ones who fear and hate him the most.
The Moon is also haunted, and the hero is also a connection to the ghosts, in a different way. The story is about how these two types of beings, each in their own type of hell, interact and eventually save each other with this one man as the connection.
Generally, ghosts, vampires, and werewolves are considered paranormal rather than fantasy. 'Urban fantasy' would involve classical fantasy motifs like magic and monsters and faerie, updated to take place in and use contemporary city environments. Thus Harry Dresden has to be careful where he goes, as his magic causes machinery to break down. Odd people come and go more easily, since nobody notices them in larger crowds. Authorities and innocent bystanders harder to avoid. And a certain noir tone of voice, 'cause everyone's gotta be a tough guy, ya know. The Dresden books, Tanya Huff's Smoke series, or her Keeper series, or her Blood series, would all be urban fantasy. Those are the good ones. There's lots more, but its so bad, even on the first page, that I don't read any further.
fantasy and paranormal all seem to depend on how you present it. So if it's more of a paranormal/psi-factor feel to it then yeah. Fantasy would be like being wrapped up in the romance of it all. Paranormal tends to be a more paranoid look.Example: Conan is really called High Adventure (and it was appropriately coined that way by Howard) because there's no romance to Howard's writings. He's nasty about everyone except Conan. Some people have tried to say Howard was racist against the Khitai but if you pay attention, Howard's really nasty about Conan's own people too (which would technically be Romanian - not to mention the Red/Blonde Haired Northern Tribes). There's a reason why Conan doesn't like Cimmeria and moved away. The only people that are in high regard in Conan's Hyboria were the dark skinned priests of Isis/Ibis - the counters to the Setite snake cult.
If it were Fantasy, Howard would have had kind words for everyone and their religions, giving them all adolations and cozy warm feelings.
Instead what he gives us are rapings, butcherings, mercenaries, sacrificial altars, and Conan's comment about all theological philosophers as being "touched in the head".
So, it's all about presentation.
Terry Goodkind spends most of his extremely long books torturing various people, especially the hero, but his books are not the least romantic or terribly interesting, but they are, unfortunately, fantasy. High fantasy is romantic, mainly because it's trying to mimic the epic poetry that was the previous form. Most other fantasy makes no attempt at poetry. Paranormal may be more paranoid, but that's because they're trying to fit the strange things in amongst the so-called normal society of today, or maybe tomorrow. These strange things have to hide the fact that they're strange. In St. Martin's Moon, the lupes (my word for werewolves) are hiding, not only from their curse, but also because they are still rare enough to be considered a nuisance rather than a minority. If they became commonplace they'd have facilities that contained their aggression, and the books would be fantasy.
The word fantasy simply means anything of the fantastic imagination - requiring some romantic view on various aspects within the literature.Yes, TG does put forth a lot of romanticising in his writing.
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How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy (other topics)How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy (other topics)
The Gods Themselves (other topics)
This is basically a rantingly informative post about genre to spark discussion.
Essentially I'm tired of writers who don't know what a genre is.
I've grown tired of picking up books, or watching movies, where the artist doesn't know their own genre. I have a lot to say on the subject but right now I'll leave it short:
Science Fiction does not mean flashy lights and the word spaceship. Science Fiction means a body of fiction which relies upon and addresses actual science. Yes, that means that you can have a Criminal Science Fiction story. OR Science Fantasy.
Fantasy - well quite frankly anything applies here which includes the fantastic. A Wrinkle in Time is a fantasy story just as much as star wars or the coming of the king. Anything that's fantastic or a dream. Could be horror or pleasant or none of the above.
Other major and sub categories with which people seem to have problems are "Romance" - "Historical Fiction" - "Noir" - "Nihilism" - "Classical" - "Epic".
Romance is a pretty big one for me too. Romance really seems to have two major divisions. The trash novel fabio stuff, and the actual romantic love stories. Though I do admit I've seen a rise in recent years that is leaning towards separating them into two distinct categories of Romance and Romantic.
I'm sure some people have something to say about this topic, so feel free to discuss. I'll comment more later on so I don't bombard you guys with a 10 page post.