SOLVED. Science Fiction book - society ranked by number of others that person can dominate mentally [s]

[Andy]

I read this book in 1975 or so; it featured a society in which people with telepathic powers were ranked by how many others they could dominate with their minds - some people were ranked as "threes" who could only dominate 3 others, while the top of the line were "nines" (I think). The main character was low-ranked, but learned (of course) that he was in fact far more powerful than he thought. I was reading a lot of Andre' Norton at the time - so this could be her. Any ideas?

[rebecca j]

i remember the book, but have no idea of title or author, sorry.

[Ann aka Iftcan]

I don't thin it's a Norton since I have almost everything she's ever written--usually in several different covers. (What can I say--I'm just a fan(atic).) :o)

Anne McCaffrey has some books dealing with psi powers, and was writing in that time period.

And maybe Larry Niven? I'm not sure about Niven but I know that there were several others writing about psi powers then.

[Kris]

In The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester, telepaths belong to one of three classes. From Wikipedia - (view spoiler)[ "Class 3 Espers, the most common, can detect only conscious thoughts at the time they are formed and are often employed as secretaries or administrators; Class 2 Espers can dig more deeply, to the pre-conscious level, detecting subliminal patterns, epiphanies and tenuous associations, and they are employed in the professional middle class—lawyers, managers, psychologists, etc. Class 1 Espers can detect all of the foregoing plus sub-conscious primitive urges, and they occupy only the highest levels of power in fields such as the police, government and medicine (such as psychiatry)." (hide spoiler)]

[Andy]

Thanks guys. It not Niven (I've just about read everything he's ever written) and it's not the Demolished Man (a book I enjoyed very much). I'll check out Anne McCaffrey (though I'm pretty familiar with her works.

The telepath classification system in the book I'm thinking of was all about mental domination; though I read it in 1976 or 1977, I suspect that the book is from significantly earlier (1950s or 1960s) - but I could be wrong. If I'm not mistaken, at one point the hero is under the control of another telepath, before he fully developed his powers.

[rivka]

Octavia E. Butler's Patternmaster was originally published in 1976. The details aren't a perfect match, but I think they're close.

[Diana]

I was also going to suggest Patternmaster.

[Justanotherbiblophile]

Yeah, I've also read most of Niven's stuff, and am going to say not any of those. McCaffrey's psi series, tower & pegasus type stuff doesn't rate the psionics that way, there are power levels - and I think they do go like 1-10 - but not based on domination.

NOT Niven
NOT McCaffrey's tower/flight of pegasus series (maybe other series? NOT pern, NOT ships, NOT planet pirates)

There's another book, whose name escapes me, that has a bunch of mental domination going on (much less powerful than Niven's slavers). Terrans land on the planet of very-human-humanoids (indistinguishable from Terrans), and find themselves classed as mind-blind slaves/lowest caste. The prince of the realm takes them under his wing. But, he's been hiding a secret: (view spoiler)[he's mind-blind himself - and would be utterly at the mercy of any of his race who're all cruel users - but has courtiers who've protected him from mental attacks, while never testing him themselves. (hide spoiler)]

[Andy]

rivka wrote: "Octavia E. Butler's Patternmaster was originally published in 1976. The details aren't a perfect match, but I think they're close."

That does sound remarkably close - but as I review the descriptions, it sounds a bit more intense than I would have been able to handle as a kid. But I'll put Patternmaster on my list to read anyway, even if it's not the one I'm looking for.

[Andy]

Justanotherbiblophile wrote: "Yeah, I've also read most of Niven's stuff, and am going to say not any of those. McCaffrey's psi series, tower & pegasus type stuff doesn't rate the psionics that way, there are power levels - an..."

That sounds like part of Asaro's Skolian series.

[Justanotherbiblophile]

Umm, Andy? What did you mean?
You quoted me talking about two other authors - not talking about Skolian stuff.
Skolian is all, we-haz-SUPER-rare-recessive-genes-worship-us-for-our-awesome-power. Not much of a ranking, as a couple (3 diverse mind-types) needed to hold down the key to interstellar communication.

[Andy]

Justanotherbiblophile wrote: "Umm, Andy? What did you mean?
You quoted me talking about two other authors - not talking about Skolian stuff.
Skolian is all, we-haz-SUPER-rare-recessive-genes-worship-us-for-our-awesome-powe..."

Somehow my quote of you got truncated. I meant that "There's another book, whose name escapes me, that has a bunch of mental domination going on (much less powerful than Niven's slavers). Terrans land on the planet of very-human-humanoids (indistinguishable from Terrans), and find themselves classed as mind-blind slaves/lowest caste." sounded like Skolia.

[Justanotherbiblophile]

No, that book has almost everyone having power - and physical as well as mental power. IIRC, I think the Terrans have the one-up on that society in technology/space-travel. But the powerful people can move 100s (1000s?) of tons of stone around as floating personal barges, etc, etc.

Like I said, that book doesn't have rankings (that I recall). If any of the other details seem like they might be correct, I'll start hunting for it.

And Skolians and Traders, etc - actually are Terrans (or Terrans are them (I forget)) - just removed / separated earlier in history (from ancient Mayans), and different technology....

And Asaro's stuff is whatever the sci-fi equivalent of 'paranormal romance' is, done right. Something that focuses a bit on the relationships/sex, but doesn't make you tear out your hair at the history, politics, common sense, sense of disbelief, technology, etc.

Also for the OP; NOT Asaro

[Victoria]

Justanotherbiblophile wrote: "Yeah, I've also read most of Niven's stuff, and am going to say not any of those. McCaffrey's psi series, tower & pegasus type stuff doesn't rate the psionics that way, there are power levels - and I think they do go like 1-10 - but not based on domination."

Not in the way that Andy describes, but IIRC "domination" is a significant theme in the mating game, because none of the high-psi-powered women want to mate with a man who isn't more psionically powerful. It's presented as a biological urge, choosing a man who can dominate you so your offspring will evolve up. :sigh:

I liked those books, except for that part. Which began to, ahem, dominate the books as the series wore on.

[Justanotherbiblophile]

Are you referring to McAffrey's series? First point we're going to ignore :). Second, I don't think it was all that way (womens wants more powerful mens - or whatever your orientation was, since she wasn't completely homophobic) - but, she set it up so that having a high-powered mate made you into a political and economic force (as a pair worked together mentally), as well as your duty to the human race / the gifted sub-set. As well as there was some type of synchronicity of mind, so you matched and mated for life.

Yes, that could get boring after awhile from a story sense...

However, how many marriages do you see where the woman makes a lot more money than the man? 50% or more? Some, where the guy is within striking distance of the woman's status, are more stable, since it's always possible that he could start making more than her, but mostly women like men who're at least as well educated as them, and make at least as much money as they do (or will; ie: status). I don't see why that would change even if we got a new yardstick to measure attainment by.

There's a reason the term gold-digger exists, and I don't see why it's so frowned upon.

That predilection works in other species that acquire things as well. I think there's a type of bird (and something else?) that collect 'pretty' items as part of their mating rituals, and female birds judge the males on the basis of their collections. Just like other species judge the males on the quality of their dancing, or their singing.

[Lobstergirl, au gratin]

I think there's a type of bird (and something else?) that collect 'pretty' items as part of their mating rituals, and female birds judge the males on the basis of their collections.

Bower birds.



Personally I think it's the equivalent of garden gnomes and yard flamingoes, but I'm not a bower bird...

[Justanotherbiblophile]

Or rusting cars up on blocks in front of your trailer...

Heh. With ya on that. But, it's difficult to measure how many books that boy has read (of course he'll claim he's read more...)

Mate fitness tests serve an evolutionary purpose, or they wouldn't exist.

[Fresno Bob]

Diana wrote: "I was also going to suggest Patternmaster."

I just read these books, and didn't remember an exact ranking order....

what about the Julian May "Saga of the Pliocine Exile" books, I think they had psionic ranks in that

[Andy]

Fresno Bob wrote: what about the Julian May "Saga of the Pliocine Exile" books, I think they had psionic ranks in that

great books, but they were published in the mid 80s.

[Cheryl]

Back to the Original Post - I read that book back in the day, too. I think. The one I'm thinking of would be one of those slim pulps like from Daw, Ace, or Ballantine. Originally sold for like 50 cents or maybe $1.25 if more recent. By one of the more prolific writers like Simak, Budrys, Del Rey...

Of course, we could have read different editions, too. But if you think I might be on the right track, I'll keep thinking on it.

Bump the thread every month or so. Also, if you do remember it, please let us know.

Oh, and did you check www.isfdb.org?

[kvon]

I was thinking of James H. Schmitz's books, perhaps Telzey or the Witches of Karres, but I can't find any numbers on a quick scan.

Zenna Henderson also had a telepathic community.

[Andy]

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "Back to the Original Post - I read that book back in the day, too. I think. The one I'm thinking of would be one of those slim pulps like from Daw, Ace, or Ballantine. Originally sold for like 50 cents or maybe $1.25 if more recent. By one of the more prolific writers like Simak, Budrys, Del Rey...

Of course, we could have read different editions, too. But if you think I might be on the right track, I'll keep thinking on it.

Bump the thread every month or so. Also, if you do remember it, please let us know.

Oh, and did you check www.isfdb.org?

Thanks Cheryl. It wouldn't surprise me if it was one of those authors - I'll check their bibliography on isfdb and see if anything sounds promising. I sent a note to SFX magazine to see if they could help too. I'll certainly post here again if I find it (and bump this thread periodically if I don't)

[Justanotherbiblophile]

I've read the recent James H. Schmitz reprints/omnibuses, and there's nothing in there like that. ie: NOT Schmitz

Haven't read much Zenna, so possibly in there.

[Kate]

It's definitely Zenna Henderson. The abilities weren't ranked numerically.

[Kate]

I mean definitely NOT Zenna.

[Empress]

What about this one? The World of Null-A
I've read a translation. It sounds similar.

Also Julian May explores similar topics.

Edit: I don't think any of those qualify but just in case you might want to check hem out:

Slan; Highways in Hiding; Mindflight; Emerald Eyes.

[Ann aka Iftcan]

Definitely not Slan. The other 3 I don't recognize. But I know it's not Slan since I do remember what that one is about.

[Justanotherbiblophile]

Definitely NOT _Emerald Eyes_ (but that's a great series). I really should get around to reading _Slan_ and _Null-A_.

Also NOT May's Saga of Pliocene Exile & Galactic Milieu series are not it either.

And, Kate? You can edit your posts, there's a little link at the bottom that says edit.

[Andy]

Thanks for your continuing efforts folks. I've been looking at bibliographies for older SF writers (thought I had it with "Pstalement" for a moment, but it wasn't that). Right now I'm rereading Norton's "The Last Planet" which I read about the same time as the book I'm trying to find; maybe that will trigger a memory...

[Chuck717]

Okay, this is just weird. I thought about this very book today while I was at work and am frustrated that I cannot recall the title. I remember that the whole thing takes place on an alien world where humanoids have varying powers and can control a certain number of others to perform duties. A human investigator goes there looking for missing humans.
I hope someone recalls the title. I'm going to search for this myself.

[Chuck717]

Got it!

The Mind Traders by Joan Hunter Holly!

Found it by being stubborn with Google search.

So, I guess you can call this one "solved?", if this IS the one you were remembering.

[Andy]

Chuck717 wrote: "Got it!

The Mind Traders by Joan Hunter Holly!

Found it by being stubborn with Google search.

So, I guess you can call this one "solved?", if this IS the one you were remembering."

This sounds very promising. I'm going to see if I can get a copy to confirm. Thank you very much...

[Justanotherbiblophile]

Hey Andy, you can move this to the Possibly Solved folder then :)

[Ann aka Iftcan]

Be sure to come back and let us know if it really IS the correct book Andy.

[Empress]

Chuck717 wrote: "Found it by being stubborn with Google search."

I'm curious what phrases did you use for that search?

[Andy]

Ann aka Iftcan wrote: "Be sure to come back and let us know if it really IS the correct book Andy."

Will do

[Andy]

Andy wrote: "Ann aka Iftcan wrote: "Be sure to come back and let us know if it really IS the correct book Andy."

Will do"

I've ordered the book and will report later this month - but I really think this is the one.

[Chuck717]

Ellie [The Empress] wrote: "Chuck717 wrote: "Found it by being stubborn with Google search."

I'm curious what phrases did you use for that search?"

Lots. Sci-fi novel telepathy, alien planet telepaths, list of 1960's sci-fi novels, etc. I finally recalled that the name began with a single initial and searched for authors. J. Hunter Holly came up at some sci-fi site where someone else was asking the same question and had gotten the answer, I think a month ago.

[Empress]

Chuck717 wrote: "Ellie [The Empress] wrote: "Chuck717 wrote: "Found it by being stubborn with Google search."

I'm curious what phrases did you use for that search?"

Lots. Sci-fi novel telepathy, alien planet tele..."

Thanks.

[Andy]

I read the book - it was actually quite good. I'm going to move this to "Solved" - I'm not entirely I actually read the whole book as a kid (since not much of it rang a bell when I recently read it) - I wonder if I read parts of it at the library, and confused it in my mind with Norton's "Star Rangers" which includes telepaths who are ranked numerically.

[Cheryl]

So, we're going with The Mind Traders. Cool.