AUTHORS BEWARE!

[Mack]

There is no point in attempting resolutions by yourself. That is - unfortunately - the domain of legal counsel.

It's a shitty situation, but - from experience - I know that taking the email overload route only confuses the matters. Bureaucracy versus accountability.

Granted, here in Europe this is easier. A lot easier. Practical examples, in cases like these publishers find themselves facing court fines in spite of being an intermediary party.

By the way, there is such a thing as "out of print" with print-to-order and other forms of digital printing. It depends on the agreement between parties involved, but picture a scenario of an author buying in capacity for X prints, or allowing Y to be processed as individual orders.

[[deleted user]]

HUGE amount of 'indie' pubs springing up. All they do is stick work up on Amazon...etc., and reap the profits. No help to author. No advertising. Nothing. They just take. THIS IS NOT OK! Struggling authors need a voice, or to voice this corruption! Hiding because it's complicated, or they are shamed for going with ego, as I did, instead of trusting myself that my writing is worth reading are screwed once they get involved with corrupt indie pubs that continue to sell our work even after our contract expires!

Authors must have recourse, since Amazon and others will take none. Why should they? They keep making money, so they don't want to. Authors MUST speak up, even if it means a class action suit!

[Shaun]

Authors are looking at small press and indie publishing because the Big 5 are hard to get into, but they don't believe self-publishing has any merit to it. They really need to get over that image. a lot of small and indie presses are just middlemen, collecting royalties off authors desperate to be published, while not actually doing anything the author couldn't or wouldn't be better off doing on his own.

[[deleted user]]

Shaun, it doesn't matter how many book she sold, or if she's making a lot or no money on my work now. Fact is, she is stealing every time a book is sold under Zumaya. And this is happening to a LOT of authors! These corrupt indie pubs springing up and playing on authors egos must be stopped. And I'm not proposing suing the silly evil indie pub. I'm talking about suing Amazon for selling work under these corrupt pubs who don't have rights to the work anymore. The pages they put up are perpetual, FOREVER. They 'say' it's until all the books are sold. But all the books will NEVER be sold with digital printing. They are produced when ordered!

[Peggy]

This seems to be a federal crime to me. Can't you report her to the FBI? I don't think Amazon can prosecute anyone, can they?

[Sara]

If I were to pipe in with some comments on copyright and intellectual property law, I would say this. In my own experience, things get "glitched" and it's hard to undo the mess without working at it.

If, as others have (see above) said, your book is published under your name and you hold the copyright, you hold the rights. Amazon forces every self-published author to accept terms, which include claiming you own the rights.

When I ran into a problem with a digital publisher, I went ahead and self-published on Amazon, even though the digital publisher continued to ship my books to Amazon. As the legal holder of copyrights, the books were mine to sell, and once it was established by Amazon that I was the seller, the digital publisher was kicked out of the equation.

I have also had my works pirated by unscrupulous folks who download "free" works and then use them to promote their services. It's important to only offer a free book at a reputable digital publisher, because you don't want your readers to get conned by folks who add a little something to your digital book, as in spyware, viruses, etc. (A lot of financial info goes out on the Internet and bad guys troll for it this way.) When you work with a reputable digital publisher, the publisher is responsible for providing the book to readers without any malware.

Yes, Amazon will continue to keep a copy of the manuscript downloaded by your publisher, but once your seller rights are established and you claim your copyright for yourself, your copy becomes the one they sell. They keep that other copy for people who bought the previous version of your book.

Here is the Amazon link for reporting a copyright violation:

https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishin...

Notice and Procedure for Making Claims of Copyright Infringement

"Amazon respects the intellectual property of others. If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please follow the notice and procedure for the Amazon site where you identified the infringement...."

Good luck and keep writing!

[[deleted user]]

Please read my letter to Amazon carefully. I notified them over 20 times, both to Kindle Direct and everywhere else. NO ONE got back to me since Jan. I'm not trying to get $$ out of Amazon, and if you weren't so afraid of pursuing them you wouldn't have come at me so aggressively. I'm trying to help all indie authors in a class action, as I've stated above. When do authors stop bending over to get screwed just to get their work out there? If you read the letter carefully, which obviously you did not, Sara and Linda, you would have also noticed that I've already published Reverb through another press, in Jan. And while it's selling and I'm promoting it, I'm inadvertently promoting Zumaya's copy as well.

The money isn't the issue. Amazon has a policy of keeping a page up in perpetuity. FOREVER, whether the rights are held illegally or not. I'm trying to change that! FOR ALL AUTHORS, because we don't have the money or time to hire lawyers when we're working a real job in the real world and raising families and writing on the side because we love to write.

Zumaya Publications is illegally selling my work. I can NOT take the page down, and Amazon won't. Nor have they gotten back to me--SINCE JANUARY 2013, after many, many emails and chats...etc. So I don't know about other authors that did get them to respond. They did NOT to me.

And yes, if you read the letter carefully you would have seen that I sent letters to their copyright infringement dept, to no avail. No response!

Over 50 authors have contacted me in regards to having the same happen to them. Amazon should change their policy...yesterday. It is a bad one to insist they keep pages up forever.

[[deleted user]]

Linda, how can I show concrete evidence when they don't get back to me at all? To whom do I send the contract with Zumaya when I don't hear back? Amazon isn't getting back to me after many emails like the one above. And yes, I have contracts and other documentation including our termination agreement, but again, I can't send it to no one since no one has responded to my emails.

Listing the link to Zumaya's copy, and not mine (Entropy Press), says to me you work for Zumaya or Amazon, and you clearly do NOT support authors. It's beyond rude. It's ugly. You are not doing any authors any favors defending Amazon when they are the ones who insist on keeping pages up forever, and then don't get back to authors when we complain about copyright infringment. At least they haven't to me yet. And it's been over 6 months.

[Shaun]

I'm curious, what is your background regarding legal proceedings and class-action lawsuits?

I'm not an expert on either, but it would seem to me you're barking up the wrong tree, so to speak.

To start, you were in a contract with an intermediary party, to print and distribute your book, which they did, one of those places distributed to being Amazon.

Your contract was terminated, but the intermediary is continuing to produce and distribute your work without your permission or the rights to do so. Meanwhile, the third parties are continuing to sell the books they receive from the intermediary.

You have received no response to a request to the intermediary to stop printing your book, as they do not have the rights to do so.

You have contacted the third party to report that the intermediary does not have the rights to distribute the book to them for sale and to request they take the book down. You have received no response.

The next step you want to take, is to initiate a class-action lawsuit against the third party.

Is that the chain of events, more or less?

Have you considered getting a cease-and-desist order against the publishing company, or reporting them to a local law enforcement office, as they are effectively breaking copyright law?

I dare say that I believe your attempts to initiate a lawsuit against Amazon on this matter are ill-conceived and based on no discernible grounds. Amazon is a third party, with which you have no contract or agreement with. Therefore, they are under no obligation to pull works they received from your intermediary during the time you were under contract with them. It would be good business, and courtesy, but they are under no legal obligation. A good example would be a physical bookstore who has a stock of books from when you were under contract, if you republish under someone else, you could ask they not sell the earlier volumes, but if they cannot return them (as is growing increasingly common among small press and indie publishers), than it makes no sense for them as a company to throw them in the trash or store them in the back room for the rest of time.

As it stands, your book is not published on Kindle through Zumaya, and Amazon is currently claiming to only have one copy left of the physical version. I think it would benefit you to watch their page, or even purchase the last copy yourself and see if it is restocked as such.

A note I would like to make regarding the letter you sent to Amazon. It is easy to see how upset you are over this issue, however, angry, threatening emails and notifications rarely get anything done. Particularly when you bombard every department with a copy/paste version of the same letter as it is my understanding that you have done over the past several months. That simply gets you labeled as a spammer and your emails most likely get shifted straight into the trash instead of being read by the people it needs to get to.

I also have to say that while you obviously feel strongly about the issue and want to effect change, your choice of weapon and target does your cause no favors. By choosing a legal option which goes after the target with the deepest pockets, rather than seeking damages against the small press which you had been contracted with and which is now in violation of that contract, you give the appearance of someone who is more interested in a payout of some kind than real justice.

As I've said, the small press which continues to publish your work despite the termination of your contract with them, is in violation of US copyright laws, and as such, reportable to the proper authorities, as well, they are answerable to civil court, where a lawyer would not necessarily be needed.

[[deleted user]]

Heads-up, they ALWAYS have AT LEAST on copy to sell, since January, when I got the rights back. Since books are now published on demand, ANYONE willing to print the book can sell new copies. And there are NEW copies available all the time.

I have not initiated a lawsuit against anyone. I'm considering the other 50 authors who've contacted me over the same issue. And why is everyone so hip on protecting Amazon? They insist on carrying books and not answering complaints to me and the other 50 indie authors I've mentioned. A class action is the only way they are going to change their policy.

Additionally, going after the publisher, as an individual, or even the three others who Zumaya screwed that have contacted me directly, is a waste of time, and money with lawyers. It changes nothing for the other 47 authors having the same problem with their ex-indie publishers.

Amazon IS responsible for keeping pages up as long as they like. And it's not ONE COPY LEFT, as you keep insisting. It's been 3, or 1, or 4, or whatever, every time I've looked. Digital printers will print ON DEMAND, so there are ALWAYS GOING TO BE COPIES AVAILABLE. Sales of the hardcover will only stop when Amazon takes the page down.

[Cate's Book Nut Hut]

Just a quick question because you all mention copyright, do you all register your works with the Library of Congress to gain proof of a legitimate copyright, or do you as Authors take another route?

[[deleted user]]

You are making my point, Linda. Reverb through Zumaya is in fact easier to find then the legally sold version by Entropy Press.

I'm sorry you see what I'm trying to do here as whining. I think so many authors are being screwed by these indie pubs taking advantage of disenfranchised authors struggling to sell their work. I'm not looking to profit. I'm looking to get Amazon to change their policy of keeping pages up forever. There is no point to this, except to keep them making money, legally, or not. They have chosen not to get back to me, and I can't stop them selling my work illegally.

I realize it's scary to even think about going up against Amazon. Writing the words gave me the chills since they've helped many authors get recognition, including me. And for that, I'm grateful. But they didn't do it out of kindness. They have a platform to make money. It's that simple. And now that so many corrupt indie pubs know Amazon will keep the pages up forever, rights or no rights, they are taking advantage of authors perpetuating this policy.

And please, report me if you feel I'm out of line. I'm trying to help authors. This is not about me alone, as I've said. It's happening too often to too many. I'm trying to help!

[Shaun]

J. wrote: "Heads-up, they ALWAYS have AT LEAST on copy to sell, since January, when I got the rights back. Since books are now published on demand, ANYONE willing to print the book can sell new copies. And th..."

"In law, a class action, a class suit, or a representative action is a form of lawsuit in which a large group of people collectively bring a claim to court and/or in which a class[clarification needed] of defendants is being sued." It's a lawsuit like any other, with lawyers, court costs and everything else. A class-action lawsuit still has to successfully pass through court, be found viable and be successful in its prosecution before any change of policy is likely to even be considered.

You seem to believe that a class-action lawsuit against a separate third-party is cheaper than actual legal action against the small press which is currently in violation of a personal contract with you AND the law itself. I attribute this to the idea we seem to have that lawyers take class-action lawsuits pro bono all the time. While it does happen, many of those lawsuits are over civil rights, medicine, or to advance a specific cause of which the lawyer is a proponent of. A class-action lawsuit is actually, no cheaper than it would cost you to sue the small press personally, with the exception of you would likely be spreading the cost of the lawyers across all involved in the suit. (And I am willing to guess the small press has far fewer lawyers than Amazon does.)

Your statement that sales of the hardcover will only stop when Amazon takes the page down is also grossly wrong. Sales of the hardcover will stop when the small press ceases printing it. Now, if Amazon is the only place to which the small press distributed to, then yes, getting them to take the page down will certainly stop sales, but that does nothing to stop the printer from making more copies and walking around selling them on the street if they are that dead-set on continuing to sell them.

Amazon has also had several high profile cases recently where books have been reported as infringing on an author's rights and the offending works were taken down in a matter of days. So, while undoubtedly some people fall through the cracks, there is proof against your claim that they are working to screw over authors and they have policies and routes that do work if they are properly followed. I don't want to say you have gone about things the wrong way, as I said, I have no doubts that sometimes people just slip through the cracks or don't get noticed by the right people, but look again at the comments I made above regarding the tone and direction of your letter.

[[deleted user]]

And I just looked again at Zumaya's version of Reverb. According to the page there are two NEW copies available. I took a screen shot if anyone wants to see it. I have proof.

[[deleted user]]

And Shaun, I've never sued anyone in my life. I have no idea how to, and don't want to. I want Amazon to do the right thing, and at least get back to me and the other 50+ authors who have "slipped through the cracks," and felt it necessary to contact me.

[Shaun]

And I have brought up the page as well. Amazon states they have one copy left in stock. Further down though, it lists 2 New under More Buying choices. One of those choices is Amazon, another is a seller listed as thebookgrove. Whether they are both trying to sell the same book, or whether thebookgrove has its own new copy to sell I don't know, but there is a difference to be made.

"I think so many authors are being screwed by these indie pubs taking advantage of disenfranchised authors struggling to sell their work."

You state that you know it is the indie pubs and small presses which are screwing authors over, as opposed to Amazon, yet you continue to make Amazon the target, as opposed to the small presses. Now claiming you only want to change their policy of keeping pages up forever. Amazon is only a single online entity and a separate third party. Going through a class action lawsuit to get them to change a single policy, which now has next to nothing to do with your work continuing to be distributed illegally by the publishing company is not a good idea.

When I say the policy has nothing to do with your work, what I mean is that, pages remain up even when those items are no longer available for sale. The fact that the page is there does not mean they are accepting new orders for it. It becomes a page where people have rated it and occasionally offer up a used copy. So their policy of not taking down pages, does little to offer you a way to stop your publisher from printing your work.

If you want the small press to stop printing and distributing your work, you need to target them, as opposed to a single third-party outlet. As I've said before, when your beef is with a separate entity and you're discussing lawsuits against the third party with the deepest pockets, it makes it appear that you are hoping for a payout or simply making a fuss hoping to attract attention.

I pointed out above there are ways to go after the small press which would not be as costly as hiring a lawyer and going into a full court. If you have all the paperwork in order, along with screenshots which prove the company is continuing to print your work post-termination of your contract, a civil lawsuit which you could do yourself, would be a no-brainer. As well, if you have all the evidence, they are breaking copyright law as well, which can carry fines and jail-time, and would be under the jurisdiction of their local law enforcement which, again, would be of no or little cost to you.

If you want to be more proactive and helpful to the general community, I could suggest starting a website where you and other authors could air your grievances against the more under-handed small presses and on which you could warn other authors of people and businesses to avoid.

[[deleted user]]

Shaun, when is Amazon libel? They are making money illegally. Yes, Zumaya is selling illegally, too, but even with a court order there is no way to enforce it. She is in Texas, out of my reach. She will do what she wants, obviously!

Amazon's policy of keeping pages up forever is for THEM! They may get back to authors, or not. But if they don't take the pages down, they profit. When do authors say this isn't right. Take the page down when the publisher no longer has rights to the work with proof of contract termination.

Authors, like me, like to write. We are not savvy with legal stuff. We are thrilled when someone comes along and says, 'hey, we like your work. we'll carry it!' Wow! It felt great after so many rejections!! So, like me, so many go along with these corrupt publishers, and then slink away when we get screwed. 'It's our own fault,' we tell ourselves, and Linda tells us. We were stupid to go with them in the first place and should just shut up, quit whining, and start over on our own, or maybe go back to trying to find a 'real' publisher.

But that's not right! Amazon can stop selling work that isn't legally distributed. And they'll KEEP selling authors work, legal or not, until someone, or a bunch of brave authors stop them.

[Shaun]

Post above was edited. I'm going to go request Goodreads give you a notice when more posts have been made while you're trying to write a comment.

[[deleted user]]

I'm not trying to win friend, Linda. I'm trying to effect change. And the 6 authors that have already contacted me here on Goodreads feel the same as I do. As yet, I've heard no good advice, other than get over myself and suck it up. Or shame on me for whining.

People hate change worst than leeches, a wise Japanese author once said. I don't understand why you continue to defend Amazon. They, too, are culpable, and in fact, capable of changing their policy.

[Shaun]

Actually, leeches were a popular tool in medicine for several thousand years, they may be icky and make people squirm, but I doubt all people hate leeches.

Ok. You write a book. You sign a deal with Dick to print your book. Dick prints your book and sells it to John, because John knows a lot more people than Dick does. You and Dick have a fight and you end the deal with him. Dick continues printing your book and selling it to John, who doesn't know, or really care that you and Dick aren't friends anymore, and he continues selling the books he gets from Dick to other people.

Now, you have the option of making Dick stop printing your books, period, through various means which I've listed above in multiple posts now. Instead, you want to get a bunch of people together and gang up on John, who still has a pile of books to get rid of, while you ignore Dick and his continual printing of your book. Even if you and your friends somehow beat John into submission,(For comparison, you're all twelve and he's a 6'4" 275lbs MMA fighter), you've done nothing to stop Dick from printing your book and sending it along to Sara, Matt, or Little Jimmy instead of John.

Kapeesh?

[[deleted user]]

Shaun, I've been instructed by personal emails here on Goodreads not to continue this dialog, since I am clearly not being heard by you or Linda. I'll leave this up to help authors, but I'm out of the conversation. AUTHORS, please email here privately if you want to discuss your indie-publishing experiences. Thanks!

[Shaun]

You're not listening to anyone else either, I've made several suggestions for ways you can deal with your problem directly, through legal means you could afford more readily than trying to start a class-action lawsuit against a massive international corporation. I've also pointed out you could pursue the direct offenders through criminal litigation and offered up other ways which you could take your story and help the community. I have pointed out that your letter you have sent to Amazon reads very angry and threatening, which does not garner the best results when dealing with other people.

You are correct that I do not understand why you continue to focus on the third-party while the second-party will continue regardless of the outcome unless you do something that deals directly with them. Psychologically speaking, the only answers which make sense are that you are hoping for a sizable settlement pre-court proceedings, or you are simply looking for attention and publicity.

As has been pointed out, legally, against Amazon, you don't have a leg to stand on, a settlement pre-court is unlikely, and a court decision in your favor even less so. You and the other authors, as you yourself have said, were screwed by the small presses and indie pubs, NOT by Amazon.

If this is the end of the conversation, than I wish you luck, perhaps you will manage to find a lawyer who will take such a case Pro Bono.