Bully
discussion
Did anyone els see a problem with this???
date
newest »
newest »
Mochaspresso wrote: "Goddess wrote: "" Making an effort to understand why someone does something doesn't necessarily mean that you also condone or are excusing it. "The point is - no one really understands why he bul..."
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
I stated my points with educational references to why it's I think the book has serious failings.
I'm not gonna bother bemoaning this point any further.
I also still don't see Jared's point of bullying tate. And I do think it's a dumb excuse. I don't care how a person might take that- to me abuse is ridiculous no matter how much your mummy and daddy didn't love you or to what extent.
Like i mentioned I don't want to start a feminist rant why I had objections to this book.
It's just pointless as no one is sticking to the point, which is - WOULD YOU FORGIVE SOMEONE WHO MENTALLY ABUSED YOU FOR SEVERAL YEARS WITHOUT HIM REDEEMING HIMSELF?
If as person does- then that's not the type of character I enjoy reading about. I prefer reading about girls with backbones. Not reading about a girl who gives up her virginity to a guy who assaulted her for several years. And going by some of the reviews -I'm not the only person to think this way.
It's a preference thing - and I prefer strong female leads. I think we also have very diff views of what constituents "strong" - as I found her very weak.
"btw, Jared actually does apologize to Tate toward the end of the novel and does try to redeem himself. If it's necessary I can look back and tell you exactly where if you really want to know. "
we clearly also have very diff views of redemption. Lets just put it this way - if Jared did that to me- he'd be lucky to receive a smile- let alone my virginity. No matter how attractive I foudn him. I'd be like "b*tch go take you lame a$$ excuses elsewhere" - but again- that's me. I'd rather b*tch slap him then his friends.
Monique wrote: Never lead with the implication that we must find out what is hurting the bully to fix the issue when talking about it with the person being bullied. You are invalidating the pain of the person who is being bullied and will get nowhere with them as a result.I think you read way more into my statements that what was actually there. I was responding to Goddess' comment about why Jared was bullying Tate. That should not have been construed as me taking up for Jared or condoning his behavior. I thought that I was making that very clear.
btw, I don't have the luxury of picking which kids I choose to work with. They all have issues and they all need help and I have to do my job regardless of which side of whatever the issue that they are on.
Actually no. It took about 2 months tops. By the time Homecoming hit, they were together. Not prom, not a whole school year, 2 months. And that's because I figure Homecoming is around Halloween; in a lot of places it's mid October. So, it could be about 6 weeks. That is no time at all considering the length of time Jared has been abusing her. If it had been prom, I'd have been more comfortable with the time frame.
I wasn't referring to time the frame. I was talking about the actual chain of events themselves. I've seen kids get together and break up several times over the course of 2 weeks...never mind 2 months. When Justin Beiber's mom was on The View, she was asked if Justin and Selena Gomez were still dating and her answer was "You know, it depends on what day of the week it is." I can totally relate to that. Young relationships tends to be very fleeting sometimes. The timeframe was rushed (from a rational adult perspective)....but these characters weren't adults. They were kids. That part of the book didn't seem all that unrealistic to me when it is looked at from that perspective.
No one is reading this saying this is representative of all bullying. In fact, we are saying the exact opposite. We are saying that this represents a fraction of a percent of bullying cases. That's precisely why we have an issue with it. Sure, it can happen this way. But the vast majority of bullying cases do not mean that the boy cares romantically about the girl.
So, what message did you get from reading this book? You disagree with the message as Goddess and I see it, but haven't explained what you got from it.
I disagree that the intended message was that when a boy is mean to you, it means that he loves you or that abusive behavior = love. I don't think that the book intends to teach that it's advisable to tolerate abusive behavior with the hopes that a boy will love you.
I think one of the most important themes in the book is the concept that you can't truly move forward with your life unless you've effectively dealt with any demons that you are still holding on to from your past. Tate had to deal with her fear and anxiety to stand up to her bullies and she had to let go of her resentment to be able to forgive Jared and Madoc for what they did. Jared had to deal with his anger and resentment to be in a position to want to stop bullying Tate. I also think there is a theme of forgiveness. KC forgives Liam for cheating on her. (I'm not saying that all girls should always forgive boys for cheating and I'm not saying that all girls should NEVER forgive boys for it either.) I'm just saying that learning the power of forgiveness and how to move on in life without carrying grudges is a very important life lesson.
As to what percentage of bullying cases this story actually represents, I don't know. I'm only speaking from my experiences here....in the majority of cases that I have come across where the bullying is systemic like it was in this book and it involves a male targeting only one specific female and no others, it usually comes to pass that the two have had history sometime/somewhere in the past. The history doesn't always have to be romantic but it's usually always there and sometimes understanding that history (from both pov's) helps. Actually, it doesn't even have to always be male on female bullying. The history is usually there in cases of one on one bullying regardless of the sexes involved. I wish I had a dime for how many times I've met with a parent for the first time and one of the first things that they say is "This has been going on for a long time." Sometimes, it's even as far back as kindergarten. I'd be rich.
As for why Jared did what he did. Yes, I got it. It's the scene where he finds them in the park. The "happy family scene" of his Mom, her Dad, and Tate. He felt betrayed. It was never about his father abusing him or his brother. It was always about the fact that he felt Tate betrayed him, even though she didn't know she had or could have known. Jared is transparent from the moment that scene occurs. So, yes, I get his motivations; I get his lies, I get his pain. That's why I responded to him emotionally in the first place. The thing is, he had a choice. He made the choice to hurt and do damage and to thrive on someone else's pain. At no point does Tate ever make that decision and then thrive on his pain.
I totally agree that Jared made very poor choices and that is made very clear throughout the story. However, I don't agree that there was never a point in the story where Tate makes a similar decision to thrive on someone else's pain. Tate made some extremely poor choices in how she chose to deal with some issues too. In real life, breaking Madoc's nose like that would have earned her an assault charge in some inner city schools with strict zero tolerance policies in place. Cutting Jared's lights would have earned her trespassing and/or vandalism charges had she been caught in the act. She even realizes what she is doing at certain points when she says "This is how bullies are made". She was fully aware of that when tells Jared that his family doesn't love him.
The way I see it, we are coming at the book from different points of view. You are looking at it from the perspective of how to help fix Jared. I am looking at it from the perspective of the damage done to Tate. All I am hearing is "poor Jared, if only he weren't in so much pain; here let me explain why Jared did this or did that; see, Tate hurt Jared too". What I am not hearing: "Wow! That was a terrible decision on Jared's part. How horrible for Tate to have her best friend turn on her. Good heavens! Even worse, her only friend is seduced away from her by her tormentor adding immeasurably to the pain. How strong Tate was to fight her instincts to hurt back for so long. That's incredibly self-aware of Tate to realize that her pain is changing her in ways she doesn't want it to."
I'm not looking at it from "how to fix Jared". I never said that and I don't think that I truly implied it either. I think you are only seeing what you want to in the story and in what I am saying. For instance, I said that I thought Tate was very brave for standing up to her bullies. "Personally, I think she displayed strength numerous times over the course of the novel. She actually stood up to her bullies many times....something that many real life victims have a difficult time finding the courage to do."
I am looking at it from how to fix the situation overall and I don't think you can truly fix it if you don't understand why it's happening and how it started in the first place.
Goddess wrote: "Mochaspresso wrote: "Goddess wrote: "" Making an effort to understand why someone does something doesn't necessarily mean that you also condone or are excusing it. "The point is - no one really ..."
I looked at the link that you provided. The article is good, but it is problematic with regards to this book because this book is not YA fiction. Simply having teenaged characters does not automatically make it YA. Amazon doesn't list is as YA and the author herself has commented that she never intended for it to be YA either. Does this book have elements that could possibly appeal to young people....sure. But that doesn't make it a YA book.
I did answer the original question of why the main character was able to forgive Jared for abusing her for all of those years. In the context of this particular story, given their histories and the underlying feelings that she always had for him, I think her ability to find forgiveness wasn't all that far fetched.
Perhaps this is really just a case of you guys saying "what should be" vs. me saying "what is"? I think I'm able to accept the "what is" in this story as plausible because I never thought that this book was trying to depict perfect kids who always do the right thing in the first place. This insistance on always demanding that literature depict sanitized versions of "what should be" in life defeats the purpose. It's like saying that "Lord of the Flies" glorifies violence and barbarianism. I read it and didn't think that the boys SHOULD HAVE behaved the way they did on the island.....but I certainly understood how it came to pass.
I'm with Goddess on this that we're just going to have to agree to disagree. The discussion has devolved into the personal and is no longer discussing the original op or productive.
No worries ladies. Life wouldn't be fun if everyone always agreed on everything. It was never personal for me. I was interested in the conversation and decided to read the book to see for myself. I'm always glad and thankful for anything that encourages me to read.
I think you are taking this book seriously than it was intended. You may have been mislead by the YA tag on Goodreads, but the book's Amazon page clearly states this is New Adult, meaning the book is targeted towards older women in their twenties or so. So don't expect an original, next-best-YA novel on par with Judy Blume innovatively exploring the theme of bullying. That being said, it's also important to understand the bullying in this novel is not necessarily actual bullying, therefore the reactions garnered are not necessarily real either. I know that this bully/victim romance is actually more common in gay/MM romance books, where the concept is often exploited to create romantic tension (popularly the bully is still in the closet and the "victim" helps him come out and they live HEA.) It's also common in traditional romance novels with Harlequin-esque inclinations, where the oh-so masculine male lead berates or is generally mean to the female lead, only to find out later that it's all justified, often due to some (very silly) misunderstanding or (more common) he was always in love with her and had trouble showing it and wanted other men to keep off her too. It's that sandbox teasing trope for grownups that's being played around with here.
Max wrote: "I think you are taking this book seriously than it was intended. You may have been mislead by the YA tag on Goodreads, but the book's Amazon page clearly states this is New Adult, meaning the book ..."I totally agree with this and didn't even think about how it is in fact similar to the trope in M/M romance. There's a kind of brutal posturing that takes place where the bullying character grapples with his masculinity and sexuality, and the tension from that struggle is often taken out on the object of his desire.
Jared's not that far off that mark; he cannot express himself or give voice to those struggles that he finds so shameful (albeit because of the abuse, not sexual identity). He punishes Tate because he wants her and she reminds him of who he was before he was changed irrevocably that traumatic summer. I could be reading too much into it, but I don't think he believes he can have her anymore, so he really tries to hate her.
The book wasn't meant to be a sociological treatise on the culture of bullying nor does it fully explicate all the repercussions for this kind of behavior. One thing that I thought it did do, was show that bullying is always about the bully's issues and that even when you find out what those issues are, they do not excuse the behavior. Another thing I credit the author with is showing how easy it is to just want role-reversal versus a paradigm shift. Tate felt good about hurting Jared emotionally for about a second; the power was kind of addictive. In the end though, she realizes that's not the kind of person she wants to be.
Penelope wrote: "Hi, it's the author here. I am not crashing the conversation! I swear. You all have very good input and this is a useful discussion.I would like to clarify one thing so that there is no misunders..."
I thought this book was captivating because it is unlike anything I've read before. I really couldn't wait to see what either character had up their sleeves in the next chapter. Thanks Penelope! It was a great escape, and it will forever be one of my favorites.
I really can't wait for more books from you. Great debut.
I thought this was a beautifully written story. I can not wait for the next book.
i found it so hard to believe you could forgive and forget all the abuse you received for years at the hand of a man who was ment to be in love with you, he was cruel and i for one couldn't trust him after all that shit he did.
I also had major issues with the best friend K.C who was a self serving bitch.
Tate was a good person and i couldn't help but feel she deserved so much better.
i also found this book compared to many NA/YA reads i have read, a little too immature for me, it felt too high school with all the bitchin and high school skanks .
I also had major issues with the best friend K.C who was a self serving bitch.
Tate was a good person and i couldn't help but feel she deserved so much better.
i also found this book compared to many NA/YA reads i have read, a little too immature for me, it felt too high school with all the bitchin and high school skanks .
plus this book was marketed to teenagers and made it seem like shagging around and sex tapes was fine. "I never, at any time, marketed this to teenagers. From day one it was New Adult to me and for adults who enjoy angst. I just wanted you to be clear on my intentions for this story. :)
aww you guys I know its not right to treat someone like shit. I know that a guy should not treat a girl the way Jared treated Tate, but man everything about this book was freakin amazing. I loved it so much, nothing else seems to impress me. I loved the bad boy with the tattoos, the....I am always there, behind you. Keeping you safe even though I hate you. I love to hate you. When you read the Jared version you understand a little of it. But the fact that he is this cool laid back bad boy that seems to keep his cool no matter what, that makes my knees weak. I don't know, but this book is so......bad boys with weaknesses, fast cars...too much
I agree that there are elements of this that are sadly very, very real. My own experiences tell me that.
Mochaspresso wrote: "(Never ever tell a genuinely troubled kid that their reason for doing anything is "dumb", btw. You will probably not get anywhere with them after that. It never helps, imo.)"
Never lead with the implication that we must find out what is hurting the bully to fix the issue when talking about it with the person being bullied. You are invalidating the pain of the person who is being bullied and will get nowhere with them as a result.
Mochaspresso wrote: "Tate even says this to herself and struggles a bit with making her decision to forgive him. Her decision to forgive wasn't quite as easy or as simple as you made it out to be, imo. A great deal happened between them to allow them to get to that point."
Actually no. It took about 2 months tops. By the time Homecoming hit, they were together. Not prom, not a whole school year, 2 months. And that's because I figure Homecoming is around Halloween; in a lot of places it's mid October. So, it could be about 6 weeks. That is no time at all considering the length of time Jared has been abusing her. If it had been prom, I'd have been more comfortable with the time frame.
Mochaspresso wrote: "I also have to be honest and say that I don't that think it was intended for this book to be representative of all bullying scenarios ever. I didn't read Moby Dick and think that all whalers ever were only motivated by revenge. That wasn't the message that I got from it. Somehow I managed to understand that Moby Dick was Ahab's story and that all real life Captains are not necessarily like him. It's plausible that some could be...but Moby Dick wasn't trying to teach me that all of them definitely were. I think that is what you are erroneously doing with this book."
No one is reading this saying this is representative of all bullying. In fact, we are saying the exact opposite. We are saying that this represents a fraction of a percent of bullying cases. That's precisely why we have an issue with it. Sure, it can happen this way. But the vast majority of bullying cases do not mean that the boy cares romantically about the girl.
So, what message did you get from reading this book? You disagree with the message as Goddess and I see it, but haven't explained what you got from it.
As for why Jared did what he did. Yes, I got it. It's the scene where he finds them in the park. The "happy family scene" of his Mom, her Dad, and Tate. He felt betrayed. It was never about his father abusing him or his brother. It was always about the fact that he felt Tate betrayed him, even though she didn't know she had or could have known. Jared is transparent from the moment that scene occurs. So, yes, I get his motivations; I get his lies, I get his pain. That's why I responded to him emotionally in the first place. The thing is, he had a choice. He made the choice to hurt and do damage and to thrive on someone else's pain. At no point does Tate ever make that decision and then thrive on his pain.
The way I see it, we are coming at the book from different points of view. You are looking at it from the perspective of how to help fix Jared. I am looking at it from the perspective of the damage done to Tate. All I am hearing is "poor Jared, if only he weren't in so much pain; here let me explain why Jared did this or did that; see, Tate hurt Jared too". What I am not hearing: "Wow! That was a terrible decision on Jared's part. How horrible for Tate to have her best friend turn on her. Good heavens! Even worse, her only friend is seduced away from her by her tormentor adding immeasurably to the pain. How strong Tate was to fight her instincts to hurt back for so long. That's incredibly self-aware of Tate to realize that her pain is changing her in ways she doesn't want it to."