The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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The Forsyte Saga
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The Forsyte Saga - A Man of Property - Part I
Polished off the first two chapters today. I've got a second hand copy that was printed as a two volume set, with a ridiculously long family tree folded into the back like a roadmap. (They were popular before the GPS.) The first chapter amused me with its social and familial commentary. The ego and the propriety and the gossip. Then, I was struck by the poignance of the aging Jolyon and his son. Very much made me think about my own father.
Mod
Sounds like a terrific edition, Renee! It certainly is a 'fat-book', and breaking it up into two volumes would seem to make it easier to read. Enjoy!
P.S. I'm telling you that you'll find that 'family-tree' indispensable as you read.
Haha! Two fat books. Forsythe Saga and Modern Comedy. But not the last one... The End of the Chapter, for some reason. I did not even realize there were 9 books in all, until recently. I think my boxed set may have been published in the 70's to go with the BBC Miniseries. (Which I haven't seen)
I'm listening to the audiobook and enjoying it immensely so far. I've even decided that the prissy and affected drawl of the narrator David Case (who in general I dislike intensely) suits the novel. I hadn't expected so much humour and Galsworthy's use of irony is delicious. I'm almost on top of who's who, at least amongst Old Jolyon's siblings, but it would be great to have a family tree!
Kim wrote: "...I'm almost on top of who's who, at least amongst Old Jolyon's siblings, but it would be great to have a family tree!"Kim -- have you tried a Google search for "Forsythe Saga family tree'? There seem to be a number of choices -- several images showed up for me just now. But in looking at one site, I realize I can't tell what will be useful until I've done some reading. I also couldn't tell how fragmented the choices might be, but it did look like something was prepared in association with the BBC series.
PS -- Kim, I see on Background and Resources you have already found a family tree for us -- and given us a spoiler warning! Should have known you would have been there already! Thx!
Lily, I've now found a family tree which is a re-print from a 1922 edition of the novel, which is more useful than one prepared for the television series. I've posted a link to it in the Background resources thread. However, it effectively contains spoilers, so it has to be used with discretion!
To get folks in the mood I have posted some info about the area of London in which the book is set on the Background thread, as well as some nice pics of Victorian house interiors, which illustrated the following descriptions of Old Jolyon's study in Chapter II:-. 'The gloomy little study, with windows of stained glass to exclude the view, was full of dark green velvet and heavily-carved mahogany.....In the rich brown atmosphere peculiar to back rooms in the mansion of a Forsyte, the Rembrandtesque effect of his great head, with its white hair, against the cushion of his high-backed seat, was spoiled by the moustache, which imparted a somewhat military look to his face....'
Kim wrote: "but it would be great to have a family tree! "Family trees vary. I've been working on mine 20 years. Many (Jews) were shot during the Russian Revolution, and the rest came to America as penniless peasants. Their grandchildren, my generation, was the first who prospered.
Deeply enjoyed the first two chapters this morning. But the rush in the number of characters introduced was somewhat overwhelming, especially for someone who struggles with names in the first place. Seems this will be as populous as a Tolstoy novel.To some extent, I am reminded of Trollope, with the mixture of personal and business, although this has an akin to the familial orientation of Tolstoy.
In Chapter 4 there are beautiful descriptions of 'Robin Hill', where Soames intends to build a new house:-'The larks sprang up in front of his feet the air was full of butterflies, a sweet fragrance rose from the wild grasses. The sappy scent of bracken stole forth from the wood … and from afar on the warm breeze came the rhythmic chiming of church bells.' [which may prove ominous...]
Galsworthy wrote 'Robin Hill was the site of my Father’s Coombe Warren and the grounds and coppice etc were actual, but the house itself I built with my imagination.’
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26479646...
Coombe Park is still one of Kingston-upon-Thames and London's most exclusive addresses and the slideshow on this website for the world famous golf club there gives an idea of what the countryside was like in Galsworthy's day:-
http://www.coombehillgolfclub.com/
Coombe Hill was once topped by Coombe Warren, where rabbits were kept for hunting purposes. The surrounding valleys were forested, and provided a hideout for the local outlaw Jerry Abershaw, who also frequented the Bald Face Stag pub. Houses there today cost millions so Galsworthy Snr (and Soames) made a good investment!
"Without a habit a Forsythe is inconcievable - he would be like a novel without a plot, which is well known to be an anomaly."I find this quote hilarious, coming as it does near the end of Part One, which has no plot. I do love the generous laying out of personalities with their habits, quirks, thoughts, and interactions. Like watching the lavish setting of an opulent table.
I found it fascinating, when James goes to dinner, Irene seats him in Soames chair and we aren't even assured Soames was present until he excused himself to go look at his pictures! pp79-80.There are such neat touches in the text, from Irene's rose-point lace to her straight back to James's snore after awakening Emily out of her first sleep in a day.
I really enjoyed how after the first chapter which offered a general introduction to the Forsyte family, in chapters 2 and 3 the reader is given a more detailed insight at some of the individual family members. Most particularly Jolyon and Swithin. I found the chapter on Jolyon to be quite well done, and wonderfully descriptive. I loved the feeling of nostalgia which was created, and that sense, of the older he gets, how nothing seems as good as it used to be any more.
The dinner at Swithin's was quite amusing. June is shaping up to be one of my favorite characters so far. Irene seems an interesting, and a bit scandalous.
I'm struck, perhaps as a 21st Century woman, by the frequent description of women as property. But, I can't tell yet whether the author is peppering that in to get a reaction (writing in the 20's) or suggesting that this mode of thought was simply commonplace at the time or for this class. It's also interesting that whole chapters are devoted to exposition of the characters of the Forsythe men, but none to the sisters, daughters, or wives. Even the Death of Aunt Ann is not much about Ann, whom I will always imagine in those moments " subtly recharging her will." Although, she seems to have been something of the matriarch, her life/death in some ways only seem a tool by which to foreshadow the future of the family.
I like the form Galsworthy employs in this first section, starting and finishing with a gathering of Forsythes. It's so tidy and cyclical!
(I also suspect that Irene, June, and, possibly, Young Mrs. Jolyon will be catalysts in the future. But, again, that may only be the impression made on a reader of this century.)
Renee wrote: "I'm struck, perhaps as a 21st Century woman, by the frequent description of women as property. But, I can't tell yet whether the author is peppering that in to get a reaction (writing in the 20's)or suggesting that this mode of thought was simply commonplace at the time or for this class. ...Both. I've seen the series, and at least one woman will become property, but there will also be men who don't see women that way. Galsworthy will show us the entire spectrum, and also great changes between 1874 and 1920.
Renee wrote: "I'm struck, perhaps as a 21st Century woman, by the frequent description of women as property. But, I can't tell yet whether the author is peppering that in to get a reaction (writing in the 20's) ..."This reminds me a lot of The Great Gatsby in which Daisy is frequently described in very monetary terms, Edith Wharton also uses very economical language when speaking of Lily in The House of Mirth.
While these books come some time after The Forsyte Saga I think he does show how there has been such a long standing view of women as seeing the value of women being directly equated with wealth and materialistic means. Women were indeed very much treated, viewed and used like property and while that is not quite as prevalent in the Victorian age as in past times, there is still that mentality there. I think that it is very much reflective of the time period and the fact that women were seen as belonging to their husbands.
One thing I found interesting was when talking about Irene and Soames and the fact that Irene seems to have a dislike of her husband which nobody can seem to understanding the phase "It is not like he drinks" is brought up on two different occasions.
I think it is quite curious in the implication that, if a woman has a husband that does not drink, then what else could she possible have a reason to complain of?
And the fact that is emphasis as some great virtue of Soames' suggests how prevalent the problem of drinking may have been within marriages.
You all point out how appropriate the title is of this book: "The Man of Property." Masculine gender beings who own and rather presume the right to possess, even though they might not succeed, what they have in their lives, including the women and children. But, Galsworthy does portray the doubts and some of the insecurities in these men as they attempt to be masters of their worlds.
Lily wrote: "You all point out how appropriate the title is of this book: "The Man of Property." Masculine gender beings who own and rather presume the right to possess, even though they might not succeed, wha..."That is a very good point about the title. Yes, that is very apt for this book, as it deals heavily with mans struggle for ownership.
It is interesting the way in which Glasworthy also shows the struggles and failures of these men, as well as their insincerities. I think that in spite of the fact of their having the position of power, and their being the ones who have the right to ownership we are given to see their weaknesses and often at the hands of women.
I really enjoyed seeing the details of Soames and Irene, and his struggles to try and assert his "ownership" over her. I thought it was quite interesting when he states that her body is the only thing he owns, and yet then he second guesses if even that he does in fact own.
Silver wrote: " I thought it was quite interesting when he states that her body is the only thing he owns, and yet then he second guesses if even that he does in fact own...."I find it is usually poignant and sad to encounter a situation such as that in a marriage. Certainly to our age it must seem as if the call is to let go of the sense of (need for) ownership of another person. But, at least with children, the feeling is still prevalent. And there is an element of ownership in many intimate relationships, too; not always an unhealthy element, but perhaps more and more considered unnecessary for deep caring and love?
Lily wrote: "I find it is usually poignant and sad to encounter a situation such as that in a marriage. Certainly to our age it must seem as if the call is to let go of the sense of (need for) ownership of another person..."I think that in modern relationships that sense of ownership is still there, at least to a certain degree. I think such is a part of human nature in a way. Though of course it would depend on the particular individuals involved. But I do think it takes quite a different form. While previously were quite literally owned by their husbands, now I things are more equal, a woman freely "gives" herself, and in return has more of a ability to share in the feeling of ownership both parties having equal rights, and entraining into the married entirely of their own free will and out of love. I believe that in many cases the individuals still might feel a sense of the other person belonging to them but I think in a less demeaning way then had been formerly the case with women.
Mod
Lily and Silver, I think you're both on to something here. I do think Galsworthy very much is endeavoring to make the women part of the story, and not just in a "mind-and-millinery," or "rank-and-beauty," fashion (at least generally). The relationships between the Forsyte men and women are key to the novel. Watch how these sally forth.
Christopher wrote: "Lily and Silver, I think you're both on to something here. I do think Galsworthy very much is endeavoring to make the women part of the story, and not just in a "mind-and-millinery," or "rank-and-beauty," fashion (at least generally)."Yes I tend to agree with that. While it has been remarked upon that these chapters concern offering some very detailed, up close and personal accounts of the various different men within the book, and yet no women have had whole chapters dedicated to them, at the same time in each of these chapters women still play a very key and integral I think within the lives of the men.
I think in a way it is reflective of the reality. The men are the ones more obviously at the forefront of everything, but we see in the background, behind the scenes the influence which the women have over the men, and their actions.
And I do think we also see the Forsyte women being assertive, and independent and though we have not yet really gotten to know them that well, June and Irene certainly do not seem to fall into the category of the modern ideal for the Victorian woman.
I was quite curious about Irene's reaction to James's remark about her not having children.
It was unclear to me if her reaction was on account of the fact that she does not desire to have children, and dislikes the implication that once a woman has kids she will fall into line so to speak.
Or if her reaction was on account of the fact that she had thus far been unable to have children.
Or the simple fact that she simply has no desire to sleep with her husband.
I want to say a deep word of thanks to all who made this project come to fruition. It has been a long time since I am just so simply ENJOYING a book of fine fiction. I've read and appreciated a number, but this is pure pleasure.I liken it to a box of fine chocolates, with some caramels to chew on and some raspberry cremes to savor their soft smoothness. Galsworthy's irony is one of those bars of Lindt dark chocolate with salt or chili or wasabi to startle the taste buds.
It is probably going to be easy to over indulge. I am well into Book II now.
Silver wrote: "Or the simple fact that she simply has no desire to sleep with her husband..."Or that she fears childbirth (still of considerable danger at the time). Or that she prefers not to distort, even temporarily, her fine figure. Or that she has little interest in raising children. Or...
Good list, Silver. Right now in the story, I'd vote for the one quoted here.
I'm reminded of Edith Wharton's critique of the upper classes, in The Buccaneers and The Age of Innocence, in retrospect from a later period.
Lily wrote: "I liken it to a box of fine chocolates, with some caramels to chew on and some raspberry cremes to savor their soft smoothness. Galsworthy's irony is one of those bars of Lindt dark chocolate with salt or chili or wasabi to startle the taste buds...."Life is like a box of chocolates...
Mod
[Mildly off-topic, but how did you like The Buccaneers? I finally found a beautiful, like new, hardcover edition and am looking forward to reading it. Yes, it includes Mainwaring's finishing it off too.]
Christopher wrote: "“[Mildly off-topic, but how did you like The Buccaneers? I finally found a beautiful, like new, hardcover edition and am looking forward to reading it. Yes, it includes Mainwaring's finishing it off too.] ..."Rochelle, Madge, perhaps others here, and I were probably in the same group that read The Buccaneers (1938) together a number of years ago. I recall enjoying the whole thing. However, the critics were quite stern in their reservations about Ms. Mainwaring's completion, strongly believing it is not what Edith would have done. Apparently Wharton was known for substantial re-writing yet at the point the manuscript was in upon her death (1937).
That discussion is here (spoilers):
http://bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/t...
Rochelle wrote: "Life is like a box of chocolates..."At least a sweet life. (I have been comparing and contrasting TFS with Train Dreams, much less of a sweet life.)
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Christopher wrote: "Thanks, Lily, I very much enjoyed reading through the discussions in the link provided in post #31. I will say that it is my experience that all of her later novels lack that finely focused vision..."Chris -- since you enjoyed the link, I hope you checked the "Message Listing" selection at the bottom of the page. It will take you to the threads for the various sections of discussions.
Enjoy! I hope you like the novel, regardless of its shortcomings. It is rather like reading Gaskell's Wives and Daughters or Dicken's The Mystery of Edwin Drood.
Soames (and his father and brothers) is a man of the previous era and is still thinking of Irene as 'property'. Galsworthy, writing in 1906, is perhaps reflecting upon the fact that until the 1887 Married Women's Property Act, a married woman could own no property. Previously all her property and earnings, frequently inherited from her family, belonged to her husband on marriage. She became the chattel of the man. During this era if a wife separated from her husband she had no rights of access to see her children. A divorced woman had no chance of acceptance in society again.However unhappy women like Irene became, prior to 1857 England was the only Protestant country in Europe that did not have provisions for civil divorce. Divorce could only be obtained through private Acts of Parliament. Divorces were very hard to obtain because there was no civil divorce. Private Acts were inconvenient, extremely costly and scandalously reported in the press.
From 1882 a woman could finally keep all personal and real property, acquired before and during her marriage. In 1883 the Custody Acts allowed women to be awarded custody of children up to the age of 16.
Also, until 1970 there was a 'Breach of Promise' law in the UK where a man (or woman) could be sued if they broke off an engagement. This was tied up with the value of virginity because in the middle and upper social classes someone who had lost their virginity would find it very difficult to get married. The high incidence of syphilis and other STDs also made it important that both sexes remained chaste.
I always find myself sympathising with Soames because he seems to long for intimacy without being able to engender it in Irene, sho seems a 'cold fish'. I ask myself 'why on earth did she marry him'? I think Soames interest in art shows another, gentler, warmer side to him but maybe they are just more 'possessions'.
Mod
Yeah, I think you're on to something there, Madge. Soames does seem to have been a bit of a 'collector', didn't he?
MadgeUK wrote: "I always find myself sympathising with Soames because he seems to long for intimacy without being able to engender it in Irene, sho seems a 'cold fish'. I ask myself 'why on earth did she marry h..."I was thinking that she had married him for money, as didn't it say that she came from nothing, and really brought nothing into the marraige?
MadgeUK wrote: "I always find myself sympathising with Soames because he seems to long for intimacy without being able to engender it in Irene, sho seems a 'cold fish'. I ask myself 'why on earth did she marry h..."Did you note that they have two very different views of art? She sees the life and vibrancy of the colors and lines. He says it's something to fill a space in his hallway.
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He's a collector, for the sake of collecting (and status). Intrinsic value or artistic merit means nothing to him.
I just feel that collecting as he does, especially his paintings, reveals a longing for something. He pursues them as he pursued Irene. The comment that Irene brought nothing to the marriage was, I think, from Swithin, which is a 'Forsyte' observation. For Soames she was a work of art he longed to possess. If Irene married for money only then it is a poor reflection on her and makes her less beautiful, a flawed work of art...
There is something rather pathetic about Soames. Like Madge, I think his collecting, while a Forsytian, acquisitive trait, reveals a longing for beauty and for connection. But he has no sense of Irene as a person, as opposed to a beautiful, collectible object, and an absolute inability to communicate emotion in any constructive way.
Kim wrote: "...But he has no sense of Irene as a person, as opposed to a beautiful, collectible object, and an absolute inability to communicate emotion in any constructive way. ..."Well, I'd posit that Soames' emotions are communicated, but he needs someone willing to hear or recognize them, and, for whatever reasons, Irene is not such a person. They are like ships passing in the night only exchanging warning signals.
I'm having trouble developing a sense of Irene as a person, given the way Forsythe is describing (or not describing) her. What attracts her to Bosinney, other than that he is not Soames and Bosinney worships her. But it seems to me Soames worships her, too. Sadly, it is not worship, or living, in whatever forms she craves. But what DOES she crave? I don't sense it is really secretive liaisons.
It is sad that Soames went about building a house for her/them without engaging her involvement! It seemed rather like building a lovely church without once lifting a prayer to discern the will of that worshiped (or kneeling to whisper one in humility).
Why did Irene seemly refuse to acquire the interest or the knowledge to engage with Soames in his collection of art? Her own appearance as described to us by Galsworthy suggests a woman with an intuitive eye for loveliness. I want Galsworthy to help me understand this woman, but so far he only hints by suggesting she may lack the family background (or education, although her father was a professor, wasn't he, even if a woman may not have gone beyond finishing school, if that, herself?) to take up the role expected (demanded?) of her as a Forsythe wife.
Just some thoughts on the first part:There is some great wit in these first few chapters, as there is in most good Victorian era novels. And I love a witty author.
The Forsytes are men (and women) of property. They are their property. Forsyte’ self-worth and identity are wrapped up in their property. They cannot have one without the other, and they pay a heavy emotional penalty for this.
Acquisitiveness, when taken to an extreme, which the Forsytes seem to do with relish, becomes loneliness -- lives filled with regret -- and some Forsytes, despite their shallowness, like Old Jolyon, recognize this.
Galsworthy makes an interesting observation about life and the tragedy of being a Forsyte when he says:
“The tragedy of whose life is the very simple, uncontrollable tragedy of being unlovable, without quite a thick enough skin to be thoroughly unconscious of the fact.”
A nice turn of phrase, a nice observation.
Old Jolyon epitomizes this thought as he looks back on his life.
“Difficult to believe it was so long ago. he felt young still! Of all his thoughts, as he stood there counting his cigars, this was the most poignant, the most bitter . . . how sweet his cigars were then.”
They don’t taste nearly as good now.
For Forsytes an offer of property is an expression of love, and a rejection of that offer is a rejection of that love -- perhaps best illustrated by Old Jolyon’s relationship with his son.
“He had proposed to continue a reduced allowance to young Jolyon, but this had been refused, and perhaps that refusal had hurt him more than anything, for with it had gone the last outlet of his penned-in affection; and there had come such tangible and solid proof of rupture as only a transaction in property, a bestowal or refusal of such, could supply.”
Question: Did Old Jolyon purchase his son’s paintings because he liked them, because they were his son’s and he wanted to support him, or because he was ashamed of them?
Of course not all Forsytes are self-aware enough to recognize their plight. Referring to Swithin and the depth of his mind:
”. . . where very little took place from morning till night, was the junction of two curiously opposite emotions, a lingering and sturdy satisfaction that he had made his own way and his own fortune, and a sense that a man of his distinction should never have been allowed to soil his mind with work.”
That last thought is very aristocratic. You can be very wealth, but if you work for your money, you are tarnished.
And I love this line:
“For what,” he had said, “shall it profit a man if he gain his own soul, but lose all his property?”
The Forsyte motto!
The old Forsytes are emotionally crippled.
Xan wrote: "...The old Forsytes are emotionally crippled...."Xan -- my perhaps flippant reaction: try reading The Magic Mountain (which I just finished, with a many week discussion on the Western Canon board, and hence am contrasting), if you think Galsworthy depicts emotional cripples. Somehow, Irene is still striking me as being as much of an emotional cripple, albeit perhaps in different ways, as the members of the family into which she had married -- or what am I overlooking?
I am also contrasting with Train Dreams, a story in which emotional crippling occurs in very different ways -- a great lack of familial and communal communications.
MadgeUK wrote: "I just feel that collecting as he does, especially his paintings, reveals a longing for something. He pursues them as he pursued Irene. The comment that Irene brought nothing to the marriage was, ..."Women had to marry for financial security at that time. You have to see it from the viewpoint of 1874.
We never see Irene from her own viewpoint, but always from everyone else's, so she will always remain partly a mystery.
Hi, Lily,I don't see the characters in Magic Mountain as emotionally crippled. Their particular problems weigh on them, or they wouldn't be where they are. They struggle with their emotions as they face (or deny) their situation. Forsytes deny their emotions.
I never read Train Dreams.
The first part, those nine chapters, are about the older Forsytes. It is those Forsytes I am commenting on. This includes Ann and her sisters, but not the younger ones like Irene and June. I haven't seen enough of them to make a comment. As Rochelle says, no POV.
While observing Old Jolyon, Soames, Swithin, James, et al, I can't help thinking of the Billy Crystal character on Saturday Night Live who always said "It is better to look good than feel good."
I agree, Rochelle. Not seeing things from Irene's perspective makes it very difficult to get a handle on her.
Lily wrote: "What attracts her to Bosinney, other than that he is not Soames and Bosinney worships her. But it seems to me Soames worships her, too. Sadly, it is not worship, or living, in whatever forms she craves.."It could be the simple fact that Irene simply does not see Soames as being physically attractive. It is hard to keep these Forsyte's straight, but is Soames or is it Swithin that is really fat?
At any rate I do believe that Soames is a good deal older than Irene is.
On the other hand Bosinney is young and attractive. We do not really know what may have led Irene to marry Soames in the first place, and if there was a time when she did see something in him, or if she was driven by monetary motivations.
But I do think I recall there was a line which had suggested the fact that Soames had forgotten the way in which he had first pursued and thus eventually won Irene over. So maybe part of the problem is a lack of romance. Like his art, which after purchasing he keeps within a room to occasionally gaze upon. Once had possession of Irene in spite of his wanting affection and intimacy, he does not in fact present himself in a way towards her that would inspire such feelings. But she is another pretty object for him to keep locked away and occasionally gaze upon.
As it had been previously mentioned, he sees her more as a physical object, something he has possession of, than as an actual living human being, and thus he does not engage her as one would a human being, but treats her much in the same way he does his collection of art.
Silver wrote: " We do not really know what may have led Irene to marry Soames in the first place, and if there was a time when she did see something in him, or if she was driven by monetary motivations. ..."Her mother pushed her into it, but she was right about Irene needing financial security. This was not at all unusual at that time. Winifred and Darty married for love and started out almost penniless. Jolyon married Helene and was disowned by his father. Marrying for love alone led to dire consequences in that family.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
The Magic Mountain (other topics)Train Dreams (other topics)
Train Dreams (other topics)
The Great Gatsby (other topics)
The House of Mirth (other topics)
Part I
CHAPTER I—'AT HOME' AT OLD JOLYON'S
CHAPTER II—OLD JOLYON GOES TO THE OPERA
CHAPTER III—DINNER AT SWITHIN'S
CHAPTER IV—PROJECTION OF THE HOUSE
CHAPTER V—A FORSYTE MENAGE
CHAPTER VI—JAMES AT LARGE
CHAPTER VII—OLD JOLYON'S PECCADILLO
CHAPTER VIII—PLANS OF THE HOUSE
CHAPTER IX—DEATH OF AUNT ANN