The Forsyte Saga - A Man of Property - Part I

[☯Emily]

Just a little correction. Irene's stepmother was her guardian. Chapter 1 of Part II seems to indicate that the stepmother encourage Irene to marry Soames because the stepmother wanted to remarry and that was difficult when beautiful Irene was in the picture. There seems to be the implication that financial security might have been enough to convince Irene to marry.

[Renee]

I agree that Irene's mother was pushing her to marry, so her own way would be clear. And also that financial stability would be part of what Irene was looking for in a mate. But, I don't think these were the reasons for which she finally settled on Soames. (Although, I think they contributed.)

Given her great beauty and the degree to which she seems to be admired by all who see/meet her, Irene probably could have had her pick of rich husbands. I think Soames must have put forth a side of himself which made her believe he was a different sort of man. Maybe he exaggerated elements of his personality which would persuade her. Or exposed the more artistic or romantic pieces of himself because that seemed part of the courtship, but which he, in fact, has no time for in his "real" life.

I think his collection of pictures is in part investment, but also part appreciation. He does spend several hours every Sunday up in their room goofing through them. If it were mere acquisition, then monitoring the market would be enough to gauge their increasing or decreasing value.

There must be some well-squashed, but none-the-less present, artistic tendencies in the Forsythe line. Young Jolyon and Winifred came from somewhere. Maybe Soames has just a little of that. Or might have, if he nurtured it in himself. If he saw it as "valuable."

At some point, Soames recollects that before Irene capitulated, she exacted promises from him that he would let her go if things didn't work out. So, she must have suspected they weren't completely compatible. Perhaps, she saw both sides of the Forsythe nature in her suitor and took the gamble that the 'true' Soames would prove to be the man she hoped he was. While trying to hedge-the-bet against what she probably intuitively knew.


In courtship, we all try to put forward our " best" selves. And, I'm sure I can't be the only one who has observed people who either exaggerate parts of themselves to please or attract their intended partner, or who take on the interests of the person they desire in an effort to "spend more time together." None of that stuff is real, of course. What's real is whether or not you can love that person when all the courtship fluff is gone. That's been a sobering realization to more lovers than just Soames and Irene.

[Lily]

Renee wrote: "I agree that Irene's mother was pushing her to marry, so her own way would be clear. And also that financial stability would be part of what Irene was looking for in a mate. But, I don't think thes..."

Renee -- where's the "like" button for comments? I did! (Do note Emily's comment in the previous post and know that you can edit yours if appropo. I could probably also quibble about the meaning and boundaries of "real.")

[☯Emily]

I never got the sense that Irene ever wanted to marry Soames, but said yes because she had to marry someone who had money and he pestered her until she said yes. I know someone who is getting married soon just because the man never stopped asking! She thinks he really loves her, but maybe she should consider that he might just be obsessed!

However, I have only read Part I of the book and perhaps more is revealed as the narrative continues.

[Renee]

Lily-
I stand corrected. Stepmother. That tells a story in itself, doesn't it? She may not have been that much older than Irene. Rereading that section reminded me that Irene's father was a professor, although it doesn't say of what.

By "real" I meant what Soames may see as his life, rather than the period of courtship, which for many seems to be like a slice of time out of the norm they choose to live. I don't know if that is less prevalent now, but it certainly still exists. They woo us, they win us, they give us dirty laundry. :)

[Renee]

And, of course, we don't actually know what Irene was thinking or how she was motivated, because we only ever see her reflected by those around her. And, in the case of the courtship, only as remembered by Soames.

I'm interested to see, as I read forward, if this turns out to be a device employed by Galsworthy to objectify her based on the position of women at the time. And, if he gives the female characters more of an inner life as the saga progresses.

[Renee]

Gad. Sorry. One more thing...

Xan mentioned in an earlier post that the elder Forsythes remind her of the Billy Crystal character famous for the line, "If you look good, you feel good."

They certainly put a great store by the externals... Money, Station in Society, Ownership, etc. I live in an area where many of those sentiments are on display. Lots of conspicuous consumption. Enormous, luxury SUVs (oxymoron). Designer everything. McMansions galore. Everything is a competition. It all seems very superficial.

However, I suspect there's a whole complicated backstory to this kind of lifestyle... Which would, of course, only be analyzed by one of the sensitive, arty types. :) And, may be my own need to believe there's more to everything than what is on the surface.

[Silver]

The first chapter we have which is dedicated to a female characater happens to be upon the event of her death. I found that an interesting little currisisty.

Also interesting I think is the fact that this last chapter within Part I seems to a counter to the opening scene. The first chapters opens up with all the family gathered together for a dinner party, and then the last chapter in this section closes with the family gathered around together because of a death.

I think it is also interesting closing with a death because death is frequently symbolic of change, and I think we do see many ways in which the various different Forsyte's are upon the verge of changes within their lives within these chapters.

[MadgeUK]

It is Swithin who is fat. Soames is portrayed as 'looking after himself'.

I like Lily's observation that Soames and Irene are 'like ships that pass in the night':). She is like a ghost ship, a Marie Celeste.

[Nancy]

Lily wrote: "Kim wrote: "...But he has no sense of Irene as a person, as opposed to a beautiful, collectible object, and an absolute inability to communicate emotion in any constructive way. ..."

Well, I'd pos..."

I agree with Lily's perception regarding Irene. It is difficult to understand her or her motives. But I wonder if there is little development of Irene's character, because she is seen as just an object(i.e. property) to Soames. In truth an object only exists in relationship to the possessor. I wonder if that accounts for the lack of character development with Irene.

[Lily]

Nancy wrote: "...I wonder if that accounts for the lack of character development with Irene."

Well, I want to see how Galsworthy treats his development of other female characters. Can he take us to their multiplicity of moods the way he has so far with his men? I see some evidence for June.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Lily wrote: "Nancy wrote: "...I wonder if that accounts for the lack of character development with Irene."

Well, I want to see how Galsworthy treats his development of other female characters. Can he take us ..."

Stand by, and keep reading.

[Heather]

I think there have been some interesting insights into Soames and Irene that have been posted here.

I also think that it is interesting that we are introduced to the family at their pinnacle, and that they will be on a downhill slope, so to speak from here on. This is further mirrored about the family in the first chapter, when they feel like they all smell danger. Whether the danger is Bosinney, the relationship between Irene and Soames, or something else remains to be seen. They can tell that something threatens the family, but cannot tell what it is at this time.

In spite of all the chapters from male perspectives, when Aunt Ann dies she is described as the one family member that could have held the family together a little longer. That she was the glue, in spite of being a woman and not meriting any chapters from her perspective. Aunt Ann is described as kind of being a "trustee of the family soul." She believes that Soames is the one that can take over when she dies, but Soames seems to have no interest in the soul of his wife, so it is hard to see how he would make an appropriate "trustee of the family soul." Maybe what happens between Soames and Irene will foreshadow what will happen to the family as a whole.

[MadgeUK]

A couple of biographical titbits:-

'Galsworthy married Ada Person Cooper in 1905, with whom he had lived in secret for ten years. She became the inspiration for many of Galsworthy's female characters. Her previous unhappy marriage with Galsworthy's cousin (view spoiler)[including the rape scene (hide spoiler)] formed the basis for the novel The Man of Property (1906).'

'Galsworthy started a new tradition of bringing the language of literature (in the author's speech, no less than in that of the personages) close to the language of real life. He does away with the elaborate syntax of the 19 century prose and cultivates short, somewhat abrupt sentences, true to the rhythm and the intonation of the spoken language and full of low colloquialisms and even slang. He realized, - indeed, he was one of the first writers to do so, - that the flippant manner and the crude speech of post-war young people was the result of a severe shock of disillusionment: they were so disappointed with those fine words that used to go with a fine show of public feeling that for them "the bottom had tumbled out of sentiment", and satire both in art and in mode of talk seemed to be the only possible alternative. The manner of speaking, cynical, affectedly coarse, substituting descriptive slangy catchwords for the proper names of things, is strongly contrasted to formal, plain speech, with the habit of giving things their common standard meanings and never saying more than is strictly necessary.'

BTW Galsworthy gave away at least half of his income to humanitarian causes.

[Linda2]

MadgeUK wrote: "A couple of biographical titbits:-

'Galsworthy married Ada Person Cooper in 1905, with whom he had lived in secret for ten years. She became the inspiration for many of Galsworthy's female charac..."

But The Man of Property wasn't post-war. Did his style change in the other 2 books?

[MadgeUK]

MoP was published in 1906 but did not become part of the Forsyte Saga until the following episodes were published 15 years later so I guess the writer is commenting upon the language of the two later books.

[Jonathan]

Renee wrote: ""Without a habit a Forsythe is inconcievable - he would be like a novel without a plot, which is well known to be an anomaly."

I find this quote hilarious, coming as it does near the end of Part O..."

I would not say that Part 1 lacks a plot. The tension between Soames and Irene, and the development of her wandering eye and affections seems to unmistakably serve as the Main Conflict.

I often find that in novels of this nature, where they center on the life and times of a certain person or persons, the work is accused of having no plot. My answer is the same in each case. The Main Character(s) is/are the plot. They call this picaresque, I believe. And, a picaresque novel, doesn't typically need a main plot.

[Lily]

You sent me to the dictionary, Jonathan:


pic·a·resque
adjective
: of, relating to, or characteristic of rogues or rascals; specifically : relating to or being a type of prose fiction of Spanish origin in modern literature in which the principal character is a rogue or vagabond and the narrative is a series of incidents or episodes connected chronologically but with little or no motivation or complication of plot
[picaresque novel]
[picaresque career]
[waifs of the picaresque tradition — Asher Brunes]

Origin of PICARESQUE

Spanish picaresco, from pícaro rogue + -esco -esque

First Known Use: 1810

picaresque
noun
plural -s
: someone or something that is picaresque [forming a kind of children's picaresque of loosely connected episodes — Irving Howe]

"Picaresque." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. 2013. Web. 26 Aug. 2013.

You may be suggesting there is a technical usage of the term in the study of literature as well. Thx for the heads up.

[MadgeUK]

I wouldn't call the FS picaresque and the plot is surely following the lives of a family, just as Zola followed the lives of the Rougon-Macquarts. Galsworthy was one of the first writers of the Edwardian era who challenged some of the ideals of society depicted in the preceding literature of Victorian England and the FS is a good example of this. By detailing the lifestyle and excesses of the Forsytes he satirises (but does not lampoon) those who lived like them.

Picaresque novels deal with the rise and fall of a picaro or 'rogue', usually from the lower class. They are humorouse novels about what we now call 'anti-heroes', eg: Martin Chuzzlewit and Huckleberry Finn.

http://www.answers.com/topic/lampoon

[Jonathan]

MadgeUK wrote: "Picaresque novels deal with the rise and fall of a picaro or 'rogue', usually from the lower class. They are humorouse novels about what we now call 'anti-heroes', eg: Martin Chuzzlewit and Huckleberry Finn."

I certainly was not classifying The Forsyte Saga as picaresque. I was comparing the picaresque novel, in which the main character's life or a portion thereof serves as the plot, to this work, where the Forsyte family (the main character(s)) serve as the plot. Limiting the definition of picaresque to applying only to lower class characters would certainly negate this allusion.

However, I do believe that the Chuzzlewits were upper class citizens, probably on the same level as the Forsytes. If one classifies Martin Chuzzlewit as picaresque, then one could certainly assign that classification to the Forsyte Saga. If one argues that the central character vs. the central characters excludes the latter from this classification, then we must also recall that the focus does not shift to young Martin until much later in the novel: further than we are into TFS.

Notwithstanding all of the above rhetoric, my first thought after reading a couple of pages of this book is that it reminded me of Martin Chuzzlewit. I would now call it a cross between The Godfather and Chuzzlewit.

[Jonathan]

Lily wrote: "You all point out how appropriate the title is of this book: "The Man of Property." Masculine gender beings who own and rather presume the right to possess, even though they might not succeed, wha..."

There are several references in Book One referring to the Forsytes' collective affinity for houses. I did not upon reading it find a correlation between their houses and their wives. The only suspect would be Soames of course. And, now I am thinking with the house building and all, and his relationship falling apart, their could be some linkage between the title, Soames' new home, and his alienated wife.

[Jonathan]

MadgeUK wrote: "Galsworthy, writing in 1906, is perhaps reflecting upon the fact that until the 1887 Married Women's Property Act, a married woman could own no property. Previously all her property and earnings, frequently inherited from her family, belonged to her husband on marriage. She became the chattel of the man. During this era if a wife separated from her husband she had no rights of access to see her children. A divorced woman had no chance of acceptance in society again...."

This was the main problem for the heroine in The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Anne (I think) Bronte. Her husband was a drunkard, an adulterer, a heathen, and a horrible influence on their son. She also had inherited the money they lived off of, yet had no access to it. I don't want to get into spoilers here, but the law that you brought up obviously had not been ennacted yet, and this effectively chained her to her husband.

[Jonathan]

MadgeUK wrote: "I always find myself sympathising with Soames because he seems to long for intimacy without being able to engender it in Irene, sho seems a 'cold fish'. I ask myself 'why on earth did she marry h..."

I can identify with the possessiveness. She is a bad wife. Yet, no one has brought that up yet. He feels he is losing her, and therefore, thinks through the ways in which he has a hold on her. He still possesses her physically. This essentially means that she is still physically/legally married to him; that they live together. I don't think this means that he owns her body in the sense that he has free access whenever he wants. Perhaps, that is what Irene is worried about in wanting a separate room.

I have been through a divorce; have been cheated on etc. I guess I am old-fashioned when I think marriage is a committment that is for better or worse. It is a character issue and people who lack loyalty often get out of workable marriages at the first sign of trouble. I think that the way things were then, although not perfect, and although not favorable to women, were a lot better than what we have now; which is a mess. My friend told me that currently over 70% of children are born out of wedlock. I doubt the accuracy of the statistic, but I do not doubt the problem. There is no family anymore; people are promiscuous and have no values; and what we are left with is: well, at least everyone has their freedom to do whatever they want, whenever they want regardless of who they hurt. And, the wife can up and leave, take the children and expect the husband to have to provide for her and them for the next 18 years, even though she is the one making the choice to sever the relationship. The LAW has done a 180, and is just as bad in the opposite direction.

[Jonathan]

Christopher wrote: "He's a collector, for the sake of collecting (and status). Intrinsic value or artistic merit means nothing to him...."

He is definitely into possessions. A lot of this stuff, I missed as I picked this book up about six weeks late and am speedily trying to catch up. Good stuff!

[Jonathan]

Kim wrote: "There is something rather pathetic about Soames. Like Madge, I think his collecting, while a Forsytian, acquisitive trait, reveals a longing for beauty and for connection. But he has no sense of Ir..."

She is cold to him. When he tries to talk to her; she brushes him off. I don't see how this is Soames' issue.

[Jonathan]

Renee wrote: "In courtship, we all try to put forward our " best" selves. And, I'm sure I can't be the only one who has observed people who either exaggerate parts of themselves to please or attract their intended partner, or who take on the interests of the person they desire in an effort to "spend more time together." None of that stuff is real, of course. What's real is whether or not you can love that person when all the courtship fluff is gone. That's been a sobering realization to more lovers than just Soames and Irene."

That is an interesting observation. I don't think this is the Soames-Irene issue, but a very astute observation on dating. It doesn't work unless it is 1)genuine and 2)two-sided. If one person does all the taking on of the other's interests that person usually gets burned out later one, and then the relationship falls apart. I have seen that happen a few times.

[Lily]

Jonathan wrote: "...She is cold to him. When he tries to talk to her; she brushes him off. I don't see how this is Soames' issue...."

As much sympathy as Soames elicits and as little as Irene inspires, still I find Soames acted in absolutely stupid and selfish ways. Galsworthy gave no or at least little evidence that Soames even tried to interest Irene in his collecting, yet we have an impression that Irene had a fine sense of taste. Likewise, Soames was having a house built for them to live in, without actively involving Irene in the location or the planning or even the decoration. She is a human being, not a doll or pet. Neither seemed particularly willing to share any personal sense of vulnerability, often one of the strongest sources of interpersonal power.

[Jonathan]

Renee wrote: "They woo us, they win us, they give us dirty laundry. :)..."

Very funny :) I've found that it doesn't work quite as well, when you just come right out and say, I have a bunch of housework I'm struggling to keep up with and a pile of dirty underwear in my bedroom; would you marry me?

[Jonathan]

MadgeUK wrote: "BTW Galsworthy gave away at least half of his income to humanitarian causes. "

In Part II, one of the characters makes a fuss about humanitarianism. I think it was during the board meeting, which Old Jolyon chaired and Soames attended. Interesting to see how the author actually felt; now, we know the remark was satirical in its nature.

[Lily]

Jonathan wrote: "...I've found that it doesn't work quite as well, when you just come right out and say, I have a bunch of housework I'm struggling to keep up with and a pile of dirty underwear in my bedroom; would you marry me? ..."

LOL! I hope that's not surprising! (As I said to one of my friends when her husband balked at cleaning the bathroom weekly, as he had promised, well, certainly you are willing to let him hire having it done. Either or both could afford it. The extent of willingness, however, by either, was never clear to me.)

[Jonathan]

Lily wrote: "Likewise, Soames was having a house built for them to live in, without actively involving Irene in the location or the planning or even the decoration. She is a human being, not a doll or pet."

It does seem that his interests lie more in owning her than in winning her affections. As far as excluding her from the home-buying decision, I do find fault with this, no doubt. However, that does not give her a right to have an affair with the architect, which it looks like could very well happen. That is not tit for tat.

[Lily]

Jonathan wrote: "...However, that does not give her a right to have an affair with the architect, which it looks like could very well happen...."

Certainly an affair by early 20th century standards. Maybe by the 21st century, we need to re-think what can, even could be, healthy male and female friendships alongside marriages. But I don't think that is what Galsworthy is exploring in this novel. Comment (view spoiler)[Irene seemed to continue to exercise prudence, at least of a sort. We really don't know if she would have walked away from her marriage on the day of Bosinney's death/suicide. (hide spoiler)]