The Sword and Laser discussion
Spoiler expiration dates
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Dara wrote: "Basically, don't be a dick. Thanks, Wil Wheaton."Wil Wheaton always says it best, even when not in the discussion. That's why he's a great guy. :D
Adam wrote: "As for books I was told and seem to agree with about the 100 years rule. Once it is in Public Domain, it is free game. ."
Oh please. That means you can't ever say anything that might spoil any book published in your lifetime (barring some serious life extension).
You get a year or so from me. If you really care about a book, read the damn thing. Obvious courtesy applies (I won't intentionally spoil and will try to ask if it's a group conversation) but there are too many easy, innocent ways to say something that someone might consider a spoiler to tiptoe around (see my previous post for examples).
Bottom line for me is that people should expect basic courtesy and consideration but that if they're incredibly sensitive to spoilers even for books, shows or movies that have been out for years or decades then it's on them to walk away from discussions about books, shows or movies. It's not on the rest of the world to cater to their extreme sensitivity.
Yeah, nobody has to keep anything quiet or secret, it's just courteous and people might get annoyed/angry if you don't.
Darren wrote: "Trike wrote: "So in scenario A, Luke and Friends are escaping the Death Star and Obi Wan gets killed. In scenario B, Luke and Friends are escaping the Death Star and Han Solo gets killed.And you claim that blurting out the change in scenario B *isn't* a spoiler?
Yeah, that thinking couldn't be more broken if you solidified it and hit it with a hammer. "
Except that isn't what I said. Way to learn to read.
Using what I said, in your example, the person who viewed Star Wars A would shout: "Obi Wan dies at the end of Star Wars" but they changed that for Star Wars B (per your example), then it's not really a spoiler is it, since you end up leaving pleasantly surprised that Obi Wan made it through, and surprised as all get out that Han died.
Since I was referencing the Red Wedding (as you were... don't try to change the sample you're doctoring), what I said would mean going "Hey, the wedding the Freys throw is a big betrayal and they murder everyone who shows up!" it doesn't matter whether or not someone's former wife attended version B of the Red Wedding and not version A, the basic event is still the same. "
I think it's important for clarity of following the discussion to know that Darren edited his post to add everything after the insult of "Except that isn't what I said. Way to learn to read."
Now, back to the discussion at hand:
The Red Wedding on the TV show was different from the Red Wedding in the book. Mike's contention was that you couldn't be spoiled for the series if you'd read the books. But that's not true.
It doesn't matter whether the changes are large or small, they're still changes and thus you can still spoil the show for people who've read the books.
There are larger spoilers to be had, of course -- some characters are still alive in the show when they are already dead in the book, and vice versa -- but any change is an opportunity for spoilers and should be avoided.
Trike wrote: "I think it's important for clarity of following the discussion to know that Darren edited his post to add everything after the insult of "Except that isn't what I said. Way to learn to read.""That's right. I decided to explain how and why it wasn't what I said, unlike your responses to me, above, which are just blanket denials.
Trike wrote: "That's some seriously broken logic, man. "Trike wrote: "Yeah, that thinking couldn't be more broken if you solidified it and hit it with a hammer."
But I was the one being insulting...
Trike wrote:"The Red Wedding on the TV show was different from the Red Wedding in the book. Mike's contention was that you couldn't be spoiled for the series if you'd read the books. But that's not true."
Mike's words (which I did read) were:
..."even though Game of Thrones is a current TV show, the third book was published 13 years ago. Anything that happens on that show could be spoiled at any time"...
I take modals more literally than you. I also didn't and don't entirely agree with him. Which was why I wrote:
"His point still stands."
The "still" in there is because even though his reasoning was too absolute, the point about the books being out there, full of things which, again, could spoil the series... that still stands. I already explained twice how the Red Wedding in the book does spoil (if such things matter to you) the Red Wedding in the series, despite the changes. I won't again.
*edit* *spammed here so as not to be accused of the dreaded crime of "editing" in my earlier post.*
Darren wrote: "Ruth wrote: "Dara wrote: "Basically, don't be a dick. Thanks, Wil Wheaton."Wil Wheaton always says it best, even when not in the discussion. That's why he's a great guy. :D"
Right. But demanding that everyone around you not talk about movies/books/plays they enjoyed is being a dick. "
Agreed. I love talking about movies and books I enjoy. I encourage everyone around me to do so. I love books and films, so of course it is fun for me to talk about them. During these discussions, I always try to make sure that nothing I say will spoil the experience for others if I am talking about something I know someone I'm with hasn't seen. I'm not always successful. Sometimes a comment will accidentally slip out that I would have held back had I given it a moments hesitation. That's why I half agreed with Rick's statement, which Rich made again above. But I always try. And so, I expect the same effort to be made in return. This generally works out well for me, and we have a great conversation about a variety of books and films and I come away with some new things to add to my to watch/read list, and maybe a couple of small spoilers I will just have to deal with. It only goes wrong when people ignore a request for no spoilers on a particular topic, and someone goes ahead and spoils away anyway without a care. That, in my view, is being a dick.
Darren wrote: "Right. But demanding that everyone around you not talk about movies/books/plays they enjoyed is being a dick."Yup. It works both ways.
Darren wrote: "Trike wrote: "That's some seriously broken logic, man. "Trike wrote: "Yeah, that thinking couldn't be more broken if you solidified it and hit it with a hammer."
But I was the one being insulting..."
See, here it is again. You insult me first, I don't let you get away with it and you have the gall to call me on it. What the actual fuck?
Darren wrote: "The "still" in there is because even though his reasoning was too absolute, the point about the books being out there, full of things which, again, could spoil the series... that still stands. I already explained twice how the Red Wedding in the book does spoil (if such things matter to you) the Red Wedding in the series, despite the changes. I won't again."
All the vague, bend-over-backward attempts at trying to save your point by retconning what you said aside, you can have a disagreement without being disagreeable. You don't have to be a dick all the time.
Darren wrote: "TTrike wrote: "I think it's important for clarity of following the discussion to know that Darren edited his post to add everything after the insult of "Except that isn't what I said. Way to learn to read.""That's right. I decided to explain how and why it wasn't what I said, unlike your responses to me, above, which are just blanket denials. "
Seriously? That's borderline delusional. I explained what I meant repeatedly and even gave actual examples.
AndrewP wrote: "I guess none of you guys will be reading John Dies at the End :)"See, oddly for spoiler hating me, I actually quite like this kind of author given spoiler. Well, that is, they're not really spoilers, are they? From my point of view, spoilers are when people who have seen or read something first give away details of that something to others who haven't. The other person now cannot view the piece as it was originally intended, as they have a foreknowledge they could not, otherwise, have gained. But if an author chooses to start her story with something such as "I had no idea when I woke up that morning that I would be dead in three days" that isn't a spoiler. The whole premise of the story is that the person will be dead in three days. A spoiler here would be telling someone how the person dies, or why, or if the death is permanent (I've found it often isn't with these kind of lead ins, but you never know, and that keeps up the tension and intrigue).
Ruth wrote: See, oddly for spoiler hating me, I actually quite like this kind of author given spoiler. Well, that is, they're ..."Like in American Beauty...
" LESTER (V.O.)
My name is Lester Burnham. This is my neighborhood. This is my street. This... is my life. I'm forty-two years old. In less than a year, I'll be dead. "
Exactly! I love that film, and that is such a wonderful beginning. :D
Ruth wrote: "Exactly! I love that film, and that is such a wonderful beginning. :D"*mind explodes*
:)
message 38: by Trike Jun 18, 2013 04:42pm"That's some seriously broken logic, man. "
message 41: by Trike Jun 19, 2013 05:36am
"Yeah, that thinking couldn't be more broken if you solidified it and hit it with a hammer."
message 43: by Darren (last edited Jun 19, 2013 06:18am) Jun 19, 2013 06:11am
"Except that isn't what I said. Way to learn to read."
Trike wrote:"See, here it is again. You insult me first, I don't let you get away with it and you have the gall to call me on it. What the actual fuck?"
Indeed, Trike. What the actual fuck? How about we just agree that you have been proven a liar, and I just stop talking to you? Sound good?
As for books I was told and seem to agree with about the 100 years rule. Once it is in Public Domain, it is free game.