Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Indie Authors: a few questions, please
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My books go through no less a process than those traditionally published. Professionals throughout. IMO, any indie author who does less is doing a disservice to themselves, their readers, and their books.
1) I have a professional editor who edits my books before they are published. For beta readers I often use both readers in my books target group and English teachers as well. Both my editor and the teachers sometimes, besides editorial changes based on grammar, also sometimes suggest other edits that they feel might make the books better.
Mark & Jennifer, good stuff, thanks for your input!
I use professional editors as well as friends/family for both story structure editing, and proofreading. I've had family members pick up issues that the professional editors missed, so well worth getting several eyes on a manuscript. Order in which this is done varies!
It does seem the more eyes, the better. Thanks Rinelle.
On original Crossroad Press titles we use at least one professional editor and then at least one copy-editor / proofreader AFTER that - and then the author's review. Less than that has ALWAYS resulted in errors.
Interesting David. I see many authors use Proofreaders as their last step. Thanks.
If you are going to bypass traditional publishers, you have to be willing to take on the pressure and expense of wearing all the hats of those bypassed. Editors, copy-editors, designers, etc...
I do a ton of rewriting and editing, and then I send it to five or six honest, observant friends and family of different backgrounds and interests. I edit according to their feedback, run a spell check, wait a month or two, and then go back over it myself with a critical and fresh eye.And then maybe again. I can't afford an editor, yet, and honestly I wouldn't trust that he or she would do better than the team I already have. I've seen too many books with 'professional' editing, and heard stories from other writers who had problems.
R.A. - Yes I'm sure we've all seen those typos in the NYT bestsellers. Annoying! Thanks for your input.
I can't afford professional services. I will write and rewrite several times over. Then I give the MS to trusted family and friends who are very good at finding errors and continuity issues. Then I go back and edit again, and repeat this process until we are all happy. Sometimes I even end up editing after getting my proto-copy from CreateSpace. This may happen more than once as well. Eventually, I end up with a 99.9% error free book. I consider that little .01% nominal compared to the errors I've seen in some traditionally published books.
My books are proofread by myself and my husband, and compare well to professionally edited ones.CreateSpace actually runs through the submitted works automatically, and picks up spelling mistakes. By that I mean, states how many it has found.
Hi WarnekeGood questions.
1) I cajole colleagues into reading pieces of my work. As well as that I read out sections in front of writing group members. Reading out loud in front of others - particularly strangers - can be a tremendous focussing aid. If you can stand the adrenalin and the sheer nerves, you get a clearer view of where it ain't working well.
On general plotting and so forth I test themes by writing short stories to see how well they sound out loud. Any feedback I get goes into the novel during my re-editing process. To be honest I don't have a literary background and so I don't know relevant professionals.
2) Professional help. Hmm. Where do I start? In principle such help could have benefited me. In practice, a professional would have gasped in horror - when I started I could barely string two sentences together - besides which that kind of support was out of my league.
3) I haven't paid to have my work reviewed. It would be quicker but the dilemma to resolve is: is my writing actually worth spending money on. Dunno the answer to that and until I do it could be wasted money.
4) Authors are (quite naturally) protective of their work. New authors face the additional concern of not knowing if their work justifies throwing money at it.
What would tempt me to a professional proofreader? If I could make a living from selling books, I would use proofreading services.* So to break my answer down, I get:
* for me to acknowledge that I need one
* the means
* track record;
*Just as I would engage an agent and a publisher (doubtless to gasps of horror and concern from certain quarters). If I write and it earns money, why would I want to diversify into POD formatting (which I can do) programming for Kindle (which I can do also), or strike business deals (my background is in accounting).
1. When you get close to publishing, who reviews/edits/proofreads your writing first? Professionals, friends, or a combo of both?When I'm fairly happy with it (first/second draft) I send it to a few friends who read it. They all have different tastes in books so I get a range of opinions. Once I've taken their thoughts on board I edit it properly and correct all the niggling typos.
2. If you don't seek professional help, what is the reason? Cost, time, quality, bad experience with a professional?
Cost mainly.
3. Is it common for Indie Authors to simply have free reviewers who volunteer to read their first drafts? If this is something you do, how has it worked so far?
I haven't really used proper reviewers, only friends. I don't think I'd use a first draft though, I'd want to have at least a second draft before I let a non-friend read it.
4. As an Indie Author, what would tempt you to try a professional proofreader?
I'm not sure. I've never really considered using one before.
Okay here goes@1. When you get close to publishing, who reviews/edits/proofreads your writing first? Professionals, friends, or a combo of both?
My friends who are writers and literary enthusiasts.
2. If you don't seek professional help, what is the reason? Cost, time, quality, bad experience with a professional?
Cost and trust is the main reason I choose to use people I know. My friends are avid readers and writers and I can trust their feedback to be honest.
3. Is it common for Indie Authors to simply have free reviewers who volunteer to read their first drafts? If this is something you do, how has it worked so far?
I think it's very common for indie reviewers to get Beta readers. I didn't for my previous work but I certainly am going to for the future. The more people willing to critique your work the better.
4. As an Indie Author, what would tempt you to try a professional proofreader?
I would want to find a like minded individual who was interested in my work rather than my money. Perhaps someone who would help me with my first novel for free. After I'd established that trust with someone I would always go back to them and be happy to pay them for their services.
Warneke wrote: "I have a few questions for Indie Authors who might be so kind as to answer them.1. When you get close to publishing, who reviews/edits/proofreads your writing first? Professionals, friends, or a c..."
I go through at least five drafts (or so I've discovered, LOL) before it goes to a professional proofreader *and* a professional editor. I also use a beta reader for longer works.
There is no excuse for not using a proofreader at a minimum. (I am an editor, FWIW, but I do not try to edit my own work.) I often see the argument about $$, but the truth is there are ways to manage it without breaking the bank. For example, you can barter. You can work out a deal with the local community college journalism department to have an advanced editing student do your project for school credit. There are always ways if immediate funding is not available. I work with people in the business with whom I have previously developed relationships and thus know I can trust them.
It is worth adding that I have been both traditionally and independently published. I do not think that going the latter route excuses you from employing the same quality control process as the former.
Thank you for your comments Cypher & Margaret.
T.P wrote: "Authors are (quite naturally) protective of their work. New authors face the additional concern of not knowing if their work justifies throwing money at it."I think it comes down to how confidant you are of your current non-professional readers/editors. If you seem to have very few errors, then perhaps a professional is not necessary. However, I have one friend who had several people read her work. Many, I'm told. She was confidant of the proofreading and so she published. Afterwards, many reviews came back saying all the typos were distracting. In this case, a professional might have helped. As to the question of monetary justification? Well that's really up to the author. Do you want to risk people putting your book down because they are irritated with small errors? It seems most work published must mean quite a lot to the writer. They're telling a story. And they're invested in that story. It's a shame, in my opinion, for the story to be overshadowed by typos.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments T.P.
L.E. Thanks for your comments. I wonder if a proofreader offering a free 20 pages would entice you to consider them? It was suggested earlier that doing this helps to establish trust and gets the writer acquainted with the proofreader's style and vice versa. Then the writer could make a more informed decision.
"There is no excuse for not using a proofreader at a minimum. (I am an editor, FWIW, but I do not try to edit my own work.) I often see the argument about $$, but the truth is there are ways to manage it without breaking the bank. For example, you can barter. You can work out a deal with the local community college journalism department to have an advanced editing student do your project for school credit. There are always ways if immediate funding is not available. I work with people in the business with whom I have previously developed relationships and thus know I can trust them.It is worth adding that I have been both traditionally and independently published. I do not think that going the latter route excuses you from employing the same quality control process as the former."
Fantastic suggestions, Sharon. Thank you for your comments.
I use two editors, one for content and one for mechanical errors (typos, etc) and they are worth every penny. I simply cannot proofread my own writing and be sure I don't miss things! I have done read to review with my first book (had never heard of "beta reading" before.) Tried to get beta readers for book two, but only got one taker...
Even though I am an editor, I do not trust myself to edit my own work. I think it is crucial to have a professional go over the manuscript for writing issues, then again for a line-by-line copy edit or proof. My books published traditionally go through that process with the staff at the publisher, and for my indie books I hire freelance editors. Sharon's suggestion to look for students is a good one. Sometimes you can get an intern at a small publishing company to work for a smaller fee than an experienced editor. They are good for the final copy edit.
I do my own editing in combination with word spellcheck and a very kind friend with a good eye who likes my writing. By the time she read it, there were only about 20 mistakes in it so I did manage quite well on my own. She is very pinickity about spelling and grammer so she was a lifesaver throughout the book.I don't go for a professional because of cost. I'm a student with little hope of actually making any money off this book and can't afford the extra expense. I prioritised buying a professional cover as that was something I didn't have a chance at doing well.
I have 2 friends who wait for me to give them chapters to read. I set up a fb group to post them and any of my friends who like my writing joined the group. There wasn't much critic, a lot of, I need the next chapter now!
I really should have a professional since I'm actually dyslexic and therefore can't tell if something is write or not, but I do pick up on double words and nonsense phrases by reading it out loud. If my books were doing well enough to make back the cost I would hire someone, or if I had money to spare. Even a small fee is still a lot of money to me.
Of course I've still not had any reviews so I can't say if I made the right decision yet. But several people have bought my book after reading the sample!
That's great, Emma! Thanks for your comments.
The other problem is that my book is 150,000 words long so it's rather expensive. Hopefully by the end of the series I'll have made enough to pay for the last book to be professionally proof read. Hope this helps.
Good points Geoffrey. It will always come down to the quality of the proofreader/editor and the quality of work they decide to put into your project. But there are some good proofreaders out there who take every job seriously. *cough* Plug Warneke Reading *cough* ;)
I am actually looking for a proofreader right now for a July release, so this thread is very timely. My biggest issue is with those who try to sell editing services I don't want. I guess it is a way to increase prices, but it has put me off working with a lot of the bigger services.
Geoffrey wrote: "Warneke, you're right. I shouldn't assume all professional editors are worthless because of one situation I'm aware of. One hazard of self-editing is that people tend to make unconscious mental c..."Geoffrey, so true, so true.
Thanks Goeffrey. You have some great points about self-publishing. I wonder if some indie-authors don't really care about small mistakes because they are not making a lot of money? Or possibly because most readers miss most small mistakes? Maybe it's not worth the effort? Because goof proofing certainly takes a whole lot of effort.
Not everyone is a perfectionist. But I feel, as a proofreader, it's my job to be. Of course, no one can do a perfect job. Everyone misses something.
Carmen, I'm curious. What are these other services the big guys offer? I know several offer formatting. I've never really been fond of aggressive sales strategy.
Warneke wrote: "I have a few questions for Indie Authors who might be so kind as to answer them.
1. When you get close to publishing, who reviews/edits/proofreads your writing first? Professionals, friends, or a c..."
Hi, I first let family read the draft, but when I have completed the manuscript it goes to professionals. I don't think any author should skimp on editing and proofreading. With my first book I had to find people to review my book, but now I already have volunteers for my second book. Getting reviewers was the hardest part.
1. When you get close to publishing, who reviews/edits/proofreads your writing first? Professionals, friends, or a c..."
Hi, I first let family read the draft, but when I have completed the manuscript it goes to professionals. I don't think any author should skimp on editing and proofreading. With my first book I had to find people to review my book, but now I already have volunteers for my second book. Getting reviewers was the hardest part.
I have a few questions for Indie Authors who might be so kind as to answer them.1. When you get close to publishing, who reviews/edits/proofreads your writing first? Professionals, friends, or a combo of both?
I use a professional editor, work through his edits then have a Brilliant non-professional proof reader who gives it the last read through
2. If you don't seek professional help, what is the reason? Cost, time, quality, bad experience with a professional?
3. Is it common for Indie Authors to simply have free reviewers who volunteer to read their first drafts? If this is something you do, how has it worked so far?
It appears to be, but I tried it and it didn't work :-)
4. As an Indie Author, what would tempt you to try a professional proofreader?
The cost of a line by line professional proofreading puts me off. For proofreading (as opposed to editing) I'm not sure an indie can financially justify the investment unless they're selling a very popular genre
I have a groups of friends who are kind enough to read mine. we are all English/Literature professionals so I'm lucky in that aspect. I know they can be critical and honest as well as supportive. I cant afford to have a "professional" editor read my drafts
Natasha wrote: "Hi, I first let family read the draft, but when I have completed the manuscript it goes to professionals. I don't think any author should skimp on editing and proofreading. With my first book I had to find people to review my book, but now I already have volunteers for my second book. Getting reviewers was the hardest part."Interesting that getting reviewers is the hard part. Thanks Natasha.
Jim, you're not the first author to mention getting reviews can be challenging. Thanks for sounding off.
I am really lucky. My friends and I went to grad school together and remain close. if I didn't have them to help me I would probably consider paying for editing. You have to have someone who can give you good critical feedback.
1. When you get close to publishing, who reviews/edits/proofreads your writing first? Professionals, friends, or a combo of both?
2. If you don't seek professional help, what is the reason? Cost, time, quality, bad experience with a professional?
3. Is it common for Indie Authors to simply have free reviewers who volunteer to read their first drafts? If this is something you do, how has it worked so far?
4. As an Indie Author, what would tempt you to try a professional proofreader?
Thanks so much for your input and help!