Connecting Readers and Writers discussion
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Indie Authors: A Few Questions, please!
Henry, thank you!Would you mind giving your definition of "Reviewer"?
1. None of the above.2. Cost, purely.
3. Judging from what I hear around on GR, yes.
4. If I had enough money for proofing to start with; and could subsequently depend on non-zero ROI.
Henry, thank you very much for your candor. I & my husband are somewhat new to this world and just trying to get our heads around it, and how it really works. Your comments are very helpful!
Richard you wrote: "4. If I had enough money for proofing to start with; and could subsequently depend on non-zero ROI."Please forgive my ignorance, but what does "non-zero ROI" mean?
And where exactly do you look for Good Reads opinions on proofreaders and their services?
Thanks!
Warneke wrote: "what does "non-zero ROI" mean?"Sorry... Non-zero return on investment. Example: say I spend X dollars to create, edit, proof, and publish a book. The total amount of money that I receive in royalties or whatever after publication of that book is the return on investment, abbreviated ROI. If (ROI - X) < 0, it means I am losing money. Hence as an independent, I am unlikely to increase X as long as ROI is <= 0.
where ...do you look for ... opinions on proofreaders and their services
Good question... I'm not sure where on GR to look for such services. I have looked at your site, even before today. While your rates seem really reasonable and attractive in the biz, I can't afford to spend several hundred for proof-reading a book.
I'm learning so much! Thanks Richard.With regards to prices, sometimes nothing is all we can afford. But that's ok Richard, maybe someday you will be able to afford more!
Thanks for the honest input.
A related question: how are those who most need an editor supposed to judge the skill of an editor? Sample edits are an excellent idea, especially for finding someone who "gets" your style and won't try to transform it -- but if a writer has no clue about proper grammar and punctuation, or about such no-no's as promiscuous head-hopping, how is s/he to know if the editor is similarly challenged? I've seen a book give thanks to an editor who clearly hadn't been worth whatever the author paid her.
Karen wrote: "how are those who most need an editor supposed to judge the skill of an editor?"If I needed to actually answer that question for a project I was working on, I would probably take a sample of the proposed editor's work (like before and after documents), and go show those to my high-school English teacher -- someone whose grasp of the language I trust. I would take the teacher to lunch, show off the documents, and ask for a harsh grade. If the proposed editor gets a B+ or better, go for it.
1. I have two beta readers who I found online for free. They are fantastic (one also does professional copy-editing).2. Cost is the main reason. I'm poor student and author.
3. All reviews should be free. Never paid nor will I ever pay for a review.
4. If I don't feel I'm getting enough feedback from my beta-readers.
A lot of beta-readers I know dabble in the professional realm of it. Some do, some don't it's hit or miss. Try out writer.ly if you're looking for one. You can put up a budget and take bids on the work.
Also...I am both a professional freelance copy-editor as well as a free beta-reader on certain sites (only from those sites do I take free stuff and you have to find them =P). I often will recommend to an author that they send me one chapter, less than 3k words and I will copy-edit it for free. That way, they can get a sense of who I am as a copy-editor and I can get a sense of them as a writer. Some copy-edits take a hellishly long time and lots of skin and LOTS AND LOTS of edits, while others are more simply finding smaller things.
But do check out writer.ly it's a pretty good website (and yes, I promise that's the actual website).
I should also mention that after my beta readers go through it, I go through it about twice more. Then it goes to my editor, and she gets free game at it (though she usually doesn't change that much). Then it goes back to me, then back to the editor for one last final edit. Then back to me. And then FINALLY it's done.
I agree, cost keeps me from hiring a proofer/editor. If i had a bnch if sales, i'd consider it. But since I only sell a dizen copies a month, i just diy everything- covers and all.
I hire a professional editor, especially after I received a couple of reviews (rightly) pointing out typos that never should have been there. A good editor also provides a level of polish I don't think you can get without having someone else look at your book with a critical eye.That being said, I also get friends to read, but they're generally not as critical as I need them to be.
I also hire a proofreader as a final litmus test to make sure everything's in order. Credentials and a good list of references are key in finding a good proofreader or anyone to hire, really.
As a new author, I didn't hire anyone. I was fortunate to have a couple of friends in a forum who pointed out some simple mistakes a good proofreader or editor would have caught. I corrected the errors and resubmitted the book. Could I increase sales by hiring an editor and some proofreaders? Probably. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt. I probably could also ramp up sales with a professional cover and a marketing package, too.
Given my expected sales figures, I couldn't justify the additional expense. I'm sure someone could look at this and say, "See! You didn't spend the money and your sales suffered as a result!" That's probably true. I hope to ask some (free) beta readers to help me proof my next book. Unfortunately, I still won't have the money for professional editing, proofreading, cover design, or marketing.
I may have made enough money to get a cheeseburger by then. I'm counting on book three to pay for the fries. Yeah. I'm an optimist.
Celeste said: "... if you spend money on nothing else, spend it on a copy editor/proof reader. You should never put your work out there without having this done. Trust me, I learned the hard way."Great quote! Celeste, thanks for the info about the AW forums, I'll look into that!
LOL Karen and ouch! But that's a great idea to give samples. I like that idea very much.
Adrian, thanks so much! I will definitely check that site out. Good stuff.
C.E. we all have to do what works for us! If you are lucky enough to be good at wearing all those hats, then awesome!
"I also hire a proofreader as a final litmus test to make sure everything's in order. Credentials and a good list of references are key in finding a good proofreader or anyone to hire, really."Scott, that can be tricky for those proofreaders just starting out. But good advice for writers.
Ubiquitous, you are an optimist! :) But this does seem the common problem among Indie Authors: Lack of funds.
1. When you get close to publishing, who reviews/edits/proofreads your writing first? Professionals, friends, or a combo of both?I do the first edit, then my betareaders who both have the necessary pro qualification. Last are 2 or 3 selected readers for a more generalised response.
2. If you don't seek professional help, what is the reason? Cost, time, quality, bad experience with a professional?
Not much need, and thankfully my not-paid-for helpers are quite superior. I already write a very clean prose and story, most gets caught during the first two edits, and I've not had much missed in the last edit so far.
3. Is it common for Indie Authors to simply have free reviewers who volunteer to read their first drafts? If this is something you do, how has it worked so far?
I guess that depends. Authors who come from the fanfic sector most likely will have betareader friends.
4. As an Indie Author, what would tempt you to try a professional proofreader?
Not much.
Warneke wrote: ""I also hire a proofreader as a final litmus test to make sure everything's in order. Credentials and a good list of references are key in finding a good proofreader or anyone to hire, really."Sco..."
That's where doing work for lower rates or even free can really build up a clientele and get those references. If you were to post something to that effect over on kboards you would no doubt get some takers. Writers give plenty of recs there for freelancers they've had good experiences with, so it could be a win-win all around.
I also do some vetting in terms of looking at the books they've edited/proofread. I found my current editor because he does the editing for all of a certain science fiction writers books and I know this particular person is doing well with his books. I also checked the reviews on those books just to make sure there weren't any negative comments about the writing itself.
You're never 100% sure until you've had firsthand experience, but I feel better about entering into a contract with someone when I know I've at least done some basic checks.
I also got lucky that one of my beta readers is a freelance copy editor so she's great. I also know there are typos in my published novel and there are things that got in there from formatting that I had no control over.
Lou wrote: "At the very minimum you need to hire a proofreader. Typos and misspellings extremely distracting and readers will chuck your book in no time."And to your point, readers know the difference between self-pub'ed and traditional pub'ed pretty easily now. I'm not so sure most ppl understood the difference early on when eBooks were just taking off.
The key, I think, is to make your book indistinguishable from anything else coming out of the Big 6. That's my general goal moving forward, anyway.
Steel Whisper, thanks for your comments.
Scott, Great advice! We will probably be doing that. Thanks!
"At the very minimum you need to hire a proofreader. Typos and misspellings extremely distracting and readers will chuck your book in no time." Indeed! Thanks Lou.
"I also know there are typos in my published novel and there are things that got in there from formatting that I had no control over." Adrian, I'm curious, how did these errors occur?
It has to do with programming and formatting. Like a quote mark became this weird symbol. If you self pub it, you'll find out what I mean.
Lou wrote: "MS Word is the work of the devil. "Love that comment. You can solved the vast majority of your formatting problems by doing two things. 1) Use Libreoffice or Google drive instead of Word. 2) Change as few things as possible from the default settings (i.e. don't change the fonts or margins, etc.) until the very end.
I write in Libreoffice and do very little formatting until I have a clean (edited) manuscript. Then I make two copies. One is for the ebook and one for createspace. Keeping those two formats separate saves a lot of headache. For ebooks I get the formatting exactly the way I want and then save it as an html file (which works better for KDP). It takes me maybe an hour to do an ebook now, not bad compared to all the crap I used to go through trying to get doc files right. If smashwords starts excepting html files I might start using it again.
1. When you get close to publishing, who reviews/edits/proofreads your writing first? Professionals, friends, or a combo of both?I am fortunate to have several friends who are also writers who help me beta read and edit. For the most part, I do most of the editing myself (I am starting an editing/proofreading/cover design business on the side), but I always make sure to have at least one--usually three or four--of my writer/editor friends double check before I publish.
2. If you don't seek professional help, what is the reason? Cost, time, quality, bad experience with a professional?
For me, it's a matter of cost... and the fact that I can be far more ruthless in editing my work without losing my style than most editors. I have found that, between my degree (which has a heavy emphasis on creative writing) and my time teaching English, I have the experience to do it mostly on my own with my friends' help.
3. Is it common for Indie Authors to simply have free reviewers who volunteer to read their first drafts? If this is something you do, how has it worked so far?
Beta readers are a wonderful resource because--just like an editor--they catch issues with the story that we, as the writers, are just too close to see. We know the stories too well, and things that are in our heads may not have made it out on paper. Someone with fresh eyes will notice those things.
4. As an Indie Author, what would tempt you to try a professional proofreader?
What would tempt me...? That time in the editing process when I have read through the book at least a dozen times and I'm starting to lose my sense of whether I'm coming or going.
One last thing... a good cover is also essential. I made the mistake of ignoring advice about my original covers, stubbornly wanting to keep them because, to me, they fit the stories and what I saw in my head. But it's not about what I see and what I want; it's about what the prospective reader sees. I still design my own covers, but as with editing, I always bring in several pairs of fresh eyes for advice... and now I follow that advice :)
Wow! Great suggestions and comments, Suzie & Celeste. Thank you.
1. both. I use a pro for all levels of editing, but amateurs for "beta-reading." These aren't friends exactly, more like fans. I like to have their input on story line issues. Maybe helps me anticipate "-shipping" issues3. Reviews happen on their own. Other than giving a copy to people on GR who offer to review, I try not to get involved. And I make it clear I have no expectations about what any review will say. The truth is what counts in reviews. Phony reviews do more harm than good in the long run.
4. I use a pro-proofreader. But there's a little truth about proofreading I learned the hard way after college, when I worked as an editorial assistant. Nobody catches every error. I don't care how experienced someone is. I had that job for 3 years, and I got to be pretty good at it, and I never caught every error. Readers don't notice most errors that pass under their eyes. Why should they? They're not reading for that. But if the rate of errors gets too high, they'll notice and they'll be annoyed. So, it pays to use a pro. Just don't expect 'em to catch every error.
Jacques said: "I use a pro-proofreader. But there's a little truth about proofreading I learned the hard way after college, when I worked as an editorial assistant. Nobody catches every error. I don't care how experienced someone is. I had that job for 3 years, and I got to be pretty good at it, and I never caught every error. Readers don't notice most errors that pass under their eyes. Why should they? They're not reading for that. But if the rate of errors gets too high, they'll notice and they'll be annoyed. So, it pays to use a pro. Just don't expect 'em to catch every error."Can I hug you? That was perfect! :)
Hi Warneke,1) By the time I felt good about the story, I had gone over each and every sentence myself at least dozens of times and shared each chapter with a writer’s group for their suggestions/critiques. Then I paid for two separate editors to review/edit my book, one after the other. The reason for this is, as Jacques pointed out in an earlier comment, no editor/proofreader catches every mistake. My wife and I went over the manuscript again, one final round of checks before publication, and I still ended up making corrections. Writing a story is like collecting the hay and stacking it as neatly as you can. Editing is like taking that messy pile and making all the stalks sit where they should. Publishing is like inviting the world to see your golden heap and hope they’re impressed. None of it is easy, and if you screw it up, you end up with a disorganized mountain of rot.
3) I choose not to pay for reviews, as I find the results dubious. As a recently published author, that means I have to work harder to get noticed… and be patient too.
4) With my experience I shared in No.1, I would not dream of publishing a book without professional proofreading. I have friends that have done it, and the results are clear. Writers cannot/should not edit their own work.
Provoked
http://therootsofcreation.com/
1. I have a group of friends that I know and trust to read/make suggestions/edit. I like this because I have a lot of control over what edits I use, and what I disagree with.2. Cost. I have yet to try a professional and haven't made enough $ off of my books yet to justify the cost. Also, I don't get any reviews complaining about grammar or typos, so I feel like it's under control for now.
3. Yes. Very. I usually send out as many ARCs as I can. I don't have a ton of people who do ARCs, but at least I can feel comfortable knowing I have X amount of reviews.
4. I suppose I would, if it were at a reasonable cost to me.
An independently, well-edited manuscript/book is usually better than one we've only proofed ourselves. The more errors you can remove from the finished product, the more professional it will look. But I think most readers generally buzz through text quickly enough that they easily miss errors a professional proof reader will just as easily pick up; and the complete work is what really matters. Nobody ever dissed a Matisse over a seemingly errant brush stroke!
Lou wrote: "Editor is not the same as a proofreader. In a big publishing house you'll have at least three set of eyes looking at your manuscript. Content editor is concerned with the narrative. He/she might ..."
Correction noted. I probably should've used an editor! Seriously, though, I'm all in favor of not letting the perfect get in the way of the good. And I think it's easy to see things written differently then we (or an editor) would write them as wrong, when sometimes they're a mark of a writer's personal style. The fact that "Ulysses" is still in print as an example.
J said: "I would not dream of publishing a book without professional proofreading. I have friends that have done it, and the results are clear. Writers cannot/should not edit their own work."Here, Here!
Lila, et all: What would be a reasonable price for a combination of quality proofreading/editing? Say how much per page? I'm interested to hear what Indie writers can afford.
Good point, Joel, many readers will not pick up on many mistakes. But some will, and do you really want your work to be clouded by simple mistakes? I think it would be a shame if a great story was considered not great because it was not properly proofread/edited. Good editing does not make a good story, but bad editing (or lack thereof) can certainly hurt a good story.
Lou, excellent definitions, thank you!
Joel, I think that's where you have to find a proofreader/editor who is the right fit for you. It should be a collaborative process. A good editor is not there to squash your writing style, but to help you make your writing the best it can be.
Warneke wrote: "Joel, I think that's where you have to find a proofreader/editor who is the right fit for you. It should be a collaborative process. A good editor is not there to squash your writing style, but t..."Warneke wrote: "Joel, I think that's where you have to find a proofreader/editor who is the right fit for you. It should be a collaborative process. A good editor is not there to squash your writing style, but t..."
Of course, nobody wants to look like they're functionally illiterate. But recognizing that, in particular, self-published authors are working with limited resources and doing everything effectively on their own, I (who volunteer to review self-published books) am willing to cut quite a bit of slack. That's why God invented the term, 'Advanced Reading Copies'.
Warneke,I think something like $.02 a word is common, isn't it? Don't quote me on this for everyone, but that's what I paid.
The challenging thing about boosting the benefits of professional proofreading/editing to most Indie writers, regardless of cost I've come to realize, is that many do not seem to have that generalized principle "If something is worth doing, then it's worth doing right".
Going through a book before publication, they'll say, is not as vital as thoroughly inspecting a plane before take-off. It makes sense, right?
But while writing a book is not as life-endangering as flight, it can still be life-changing. It's an extension of you, and your competency as a professional author, that anyone (as many anyone's as possible) will see and judge. Isn't that worth a measly $.02 a word?
http://therootsofcreation.com/
I love what Lou & J are saying!J, regarding pricing, I've seen many different fees. I would say the average is between $3-$5 a page with 250 words equaling a page. If my math is correct, what you describe is about $5. This is pretty high end, especially to most Indie writers. Not to sound like a commercial, but...we at Warneke Reading only charge approx. .006 cents per word. ($1.50 per page) We have chosen to charge so little for 2 reasons: 1. We are somewhat new to the field and feel we should earn the ability to charge more. We probably will raise our rates slowly, over time. 2. We want to remain affordable to the Indie writer. Therefore, we don't want to raise our rates beyond what is attractive and affordable to them. And for the record, just because we are low-priced doesn't mean our services are low-quality. But we like doing this and helping writers. It's fun and rewarding! Ok self-promotion off. ;)
To be fair,I have seen several small editing/proofreading companies offer $2-$2.50 a page as well, which is also reasonable.
I recently started using a professional editor but before that I had a variety of people read through it for me. Because I have to use voice recognition software for almost everything I do, the software often miss recognizes things I say and sometimes I don't get them caught in time. I often get people to read through it for me, some people that I trust that read in the genre I'm writing .
I'm currently using my cell phone to respond to this, and I'm not sure what the other questions were. I don't have a good enough memory. Grin.
I have to agree with Warneke... $0.02 per word is pretty expensive. That's $2,000 for a 100,000 word book. Many independent authors will never make that back on their book.
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1. When you get close to publishing, who reviews/edits/proofreads your writing first? Professionals, friends, or a combo of both?
2. If you don't seek professional help, what is the reason? Cost, time, quality, bad experience with a professional?
3. Is it common for Indie Authors to simply have free reviewers who volunteer to read their first drafts? If this is something you do, how has it worked so far?
4. As an Indie Author, what would tempt you to try a professional proofreader?
Thanks so much for your input and help!