Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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What Are you Reading?
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Alison
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Nov 17, 2019 03:00PM
That's so frustrating, Brenda. On-page naming matters and representation matters. Actually seeing the words on the page is a huge thing. Enjoy reading something else for a while. Fist bump in support. :)
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Jordan wrote: "I’m wondering if authors know they’re doing that. [snip] Was Ann Cleeves’s, for example, trying to create an autistic character and just didn’t want to put a label on him? Or was it more like an accident with a set of character traits that happens to fit an autistic character and the author is oblivious?"I’m certain that both happen, because autistic behavior is human behavior that is recognizable, even if people in general don’t realize it or understand the internal reasons behind it.
But because of groups like Autism Speaks, and anti-vaxers, and the ABA industry (which was developed and created by the same people, using the same research as Gay Conversion Therapy, which is now widely recognized as being literal torture), who have a huge financial motivation to keep the general population ignorant and have a lot of money to spend on misinformation, the majority of the population don’t realize it.
This is also why people react to Greta Thunberg the way they do, because she doesn’t fit the manufactured stereotype they have in their minds. It’s why people continually use “autistic” as a slur or a derogatory insult, or use it to imply someone is ‘unfit’. While the fact is that some of the most brilliant, creative, and passionate people are autistic, even if they don’t even know it themselves (very common for adults!!), or can’t be ‘out’ because of prejudice.
Basically the single most true thing about autism is that every widely believed “fact” is wrong, or at the very least wildly misleading. Like with functioning labels. The term’s “high-function” and “low-function” are concepts made up by non-autistics to basically identify how much trouble we’ll be to them. “High-functioning” is use to ignore and dismiss the struggles of those perceived as more “normal”, and “low-function” is used to ignore and dismiss the strengths of those who are less able to appear “normal”. They have no meaning to the autistic community. Autistic traits are a spectrum and each autistic person is entirely unique, just as neuro-typical people are. There is no ‘high to low’ gradient. I mean, the absent-minded professor is one of the more widely used autistic-tropes, but it’s rarely ever identified as such.
But from a creator’s standpoint, only the creator is going to know if they are purposely recognizing and using autistic tropes or not, if they don’t specifically state it in canon. But even when the creator is unknowing, or well-meaning, that doesn’t mitigate the harm.
One of the reasons why Sheldon Cooper’s character in The Big Bang Theory is so problematic for the autistic community is that he’s a caricature, but caricatures only work if there is a widely known realistic portrayal to contrast them against. And since there are no realistic autistic characters that are widely recognized, non-autistic people see HIM as a realistic depiction. He’s NOT!! And even HE isn’t specifically stated as being autistic.
[And yes, SO MANY correlations between the autistic community and autistic history and the queer community and queer history!!!]
Jordan wrote: "I’m wondering if authors know they’re doing that. Obviously in that one exception they know, but the others? Was Ann Cleve’s, for example, trying to create an autistic character and just didn’t wan..."Also, in the case of Ann's Matthew, his autistic traits are really striking (and I'm only about a third into the book). And because of who Jonathan is and what he does, and the fact that she has characters with Down's Syndrome in the story, who are really well handled also... I just don't know.
It's possible, but maybe less likely. Matthew believes his struggles are because of the way he was raised, and those specific circumstance have certainly affected him, but it doesn't explain everything, or even most of it. And it's entirely realistic for a man of his age and upbringing to not know he's autistic.
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Well, I bought Ann’s book, so I’ll be reading it at some point, for my library’s We Are Pride booklist, and also just because I like Ann Cleeves. I’m now really interested to see how Matthew is portrayed.
Jordan wrote: "This reminds me of something I read recently that was commenting on bullies and people who make fun of “weird” kids. That they had said they wouldn’t dare make fun of someone they knew was Autistic..."Yeah, there is a certain type of person who will target anyone who isn't like them, regardless of why they aren't like them (gender, ethnicity, sexuality, 'class', neurotype...). And they always have an excuse, either they were "just joking", or they "didn't know", or whatever. And other people stand by and let them off for those excuses, "boys will be boys", "they're just young and stupid (even when they are neither)", but it's never justifiable.
I hope you enjoy the book! I'm finding it really exceptional. I love the tv show, Vera, but I've never read any of Ann's books before, and I'm truly mesmerized by it. The writing is so, so beautiful!!
As for Matthew, pay particular attention to how his anxiety is portrayed and what is actually causing it, particularly in relation to his various interactions with others . Through a neurotypical lens, he's said to "lack confidence", but... the underlying issue is his uncertainty, particularly related to communication. That isn't explainable through his upbringing, that's intrinsic to him.
Also, she has several instances of where he's noted being overwhelmed either by his sensory environment, or by emotions (his or other people's), those are all classic signs the person is autistic. Also, his reactions to Jonathan and their relationship are very, very common for someone who is autistic.
At it's core, there is an instinctive communication difference between neurotypical people and autistic people. There has been research done which they've called the Double Empathy Problem, where they tested group dynamic communication and found groups of just autistic people or just neurotypical people performed well and as expected, but a mixed group of autistic and neurotypical people performed significantly worse than either of the other groups.
The 'problem' isn't *just* with autistic people (as it is currently framed... we are the ones who are "wrong", mainly because there are significantly fewer of us), but instead, it's more like trying to communicate using two different languages when they don't necessarily know they are different.
I like to compare it to trying to communicate between a Mac and a PC, we are both doing the same things, but we're using different operating systems. Our unconscious, instinctive communication doesn't match up, and if we *know* that, we (BOTH parties) can make adjustments for it and successfully bridge those areas of misunderstanding.
But if one or both parties don't know, that miscommunication can cause myriad problems (mostly for the autistic person, which is why the vast majority of autistic people have the trifecta of mental health issues: anxiety/depression/burnout. Not because we're autistic, but because of having to live in an environment that is literally designed to be hostile to us).
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It’s like Introversion vs. extroversion. At least in the US, it’s expected that everyone should be an outgoing extrovert in order to put yourself out there and do well, when a good number of people just can’t do that.
I loved Vera, the tv show, though I stopped at the part when Joe left because I really liked him and didn’t want him replaced. The books are really good, but much grimmer, and very different, in that Vera doesn’t show up until halfway through the book. She also has excema In the books that she’s constantly complaining about. I’ve only read the first two, but I have most of them so I will eventually get through all of them.
Jordan wrote: "I have a feeling there are a lot more people who are Autistic but don’t know it just because of the way the world works and appreciates those without. If you’re “high functioning” then you’re “norm..."YES! (I was just coming in to post an addendum LOL)
A little further clarification here: There is no single trait that all autistic people have. You cannot tell if someone is autistic by looking at them. You cannot tell if someone is autistic by talking to them. You can tell they are autistic if they tell you they are. And sometimes, those of us who are autistic can instinctively pick up cues in manner or comments or… something intangible (the autistic version of ‘gaydar’), but also often times we can’t tell either unless we’re told.
A lot of us are able to hide our vulnerabilities really well (it’s called autistic masking, but especially over a lifetime, this nearly always leads to mental health issues, and it’s why “high-functioning” autistics have such a high suicide rate).
Or we’re predominately in environments where our special skills are strong enough that any social ‘foibles’ are just put down to us being “assholes” and tolerated (see also: Sam Kennedy. And no, I still haven’t forgiven Jason for using the term “high-functioning” in book 2, especially after how he treated Sam in book 4. >:-[).
But people like things simple. The problem is that there is no concept related to humans that can be described as a simple binary, not even death. So people struggle. With how to act, with what to say, because they don’t see us as like them at all, but we are. We just take a different road to get there.
Jordan wrote: "I have a feeling there are a lot more people who are Autistic but don’t know it ..."Yep. And this is why the autistic community just tends to roll our eyes when certain factions of the media try to scaremonger about "epidemics" (again, it's solely about scaring new parents into paying big dollars for "cures" and "therapies").
There are so many people who are autistic that don't know it, particularly people who were AFAB, or are BIPOC of any gender.
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Jordan wrote: "That’s it, right there: simple. We like things simple. And easy. And if it’s not... well, that’s when trouble starts."Ha, yes! And it's also why we're such good fodder for drama and conflict in fiction! :-DDD
This article just popped up on my twitter feed about people identified/diagnosed as autistic as adults. The experiences of these people is why accurate and realistic *named* representation, particularly in fictional media, where people can get to know characters over time and they can become important in a much wider social context is so very, very important.
Personal story: I was made aware that I might by autistic by talking with another autistic person online about the character Dr. Spencer Reid on a message board for the show Criminal Minds.
The question of whether Reid was autistic was a huge and frequent topic of discussion with most people arguing that he wasn't, usually with their reasoning being because he showed empathy (especially at that time, one of the big "facts" about autistic people was that we "lacked empathy", which is categorically untrue and many autistics deal with having hyper empathy, which can overwhelm us and cause meltdowns or shutdowns).
The autistic person patiently and thoroughly explained how many autistics process and show empathy, and how it can look different to non autistic people, as well as pointing out many other characteristic that indicated Reid was autistic.
Over time, I became friends with that person and through a lot of discussion with them, that's how I was first made aware of the possibility for myself. I honestly don't know where I would be now without having that experience, which was made possible by a character on a tv show. THAT'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT.
Alright... I will now stop hijacking this thread and get back on topic... I just downloaded Bone Rider from my friendly neighborhood library. It definitely sounds like a very wild ride!!
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:-D Can't wait to hear what you think about it!
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The experiences of these people is why accurate and realistic *named* representation, parti..."
That's how I think a lot of people learn about themselves, by talking to other people! And then you find out how similar or different you are and go from there.
But... I'm an introvert, so I'll stay home and read books, thanks. :-P
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Now that I'm almost finished, I'm interested to see what tropes you don't particularly like and what you found sloppy about the story telling. :-)
Jordan wrote: "But... I'm an introvert, so I'll stay home and read books, thanks. :-P"Hee! Always my first choice too. :-D
And seriously, the internet and social media, even with it's problems, has meant so much to the autistic community by creating tools so we could actually find each other and *build* a community in a way that works for us, since we're all predominately introverts too. I would not have a social life without the internet, my first fandom was waaay back in the early '90s on a message board for an author (Mercedes Lackey). It was the opening of a whole new world for me.
Jordan wrote: "Now that I'm almost finished, I'm interested to see what tropes you don't particularly like and what you found sloppy about the story telling. :-)."Oh man, I'm trying to remember specifically, but I tend to put things out of my head that I don't like and only remember what I did, when I do find things generally good.
I remember some of the dialog and circumstances towards the end made me feel cringy and I remember feeling that they maybe hadn't spent as much editing time towards the end of the book (plus, there's a really fine line between emotional drama and sappy drama, and it's in a different place for every reader). I'll have to do a reread to see if I still feel the same about it.
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I can sort of see that about the ending to Spellbound. I finished it this morning and while I liked the story, it didn’t really grab me. It was good, but not great. Since I’m reviewing it for my blog at work next week, i need to figure out better why I didn’t fall in love with it.
I finally started the My Brilliant Friend, for the moment (100 pages into it) I like it. And today I found out that Elena Ferrante wrote a new book, «La vita bugiarda degli adulti» (The Lying Life of Adults, which will be available in June).
Antonella wrote: "I finally started the My Brilliant Friend, for the moment (100 pages into it) I like it. And today I found out that Elena Ferrante wrote a new book, «La vita bugiarda degli adulti..."
I have this book to read as well. The play based on the book is currently running at the National Theatre in London. It is in two parts and I dont have enough time to go and see it. I will read the book instead.
(I am still having adventures in Morocco) :)
I've been enjoying the discussion very much. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences, Brenda. :)
Alison wrote: "I've been enjoying the discussion very much. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences, Brenda. :)"Thanks Alison! <3 I really appreciate that!!
I am in the middle of Something Wicked This Way Comesby Amy Rae Durreson. Many of you will reckognise the title as part of a quote from MacBeth; « By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes» and there is also a book by sci-fi author Ray Bradbury with the same name. (Very scary and highly recommended!) But anyway, this one is very well written, have a beautiful m/m love story as well as a terribly scary story about old legends and missing children. I am not usually a big fan of horror stories but this one is excellent. There is some description of historical child abuse so a warning is in order.
I have just finished Dead Man's Quill by Jordan Castillo Price, the currently last part of the ABCs of Spellcraft series and I can only recommend it. It is a lot lighter in tone than the Psycop series, but it has the same kind of world-building and the very different perspectives of the two MCs make for a very interesting read.And that reminds me of her Mnevermind series in regard to the autism discussion, has anyone read these books? One of the MCs is explicitly on the spectrum and I felt like it was a very emphatic portrayal that avoided the pitfalls Brenda talked about.
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And yes, I did read Mnevermind! Thanks for reminding me, I’d forgotten about it, but it was excellent, and the MC’s partner was Autistic. 😁
One of the volumes is from Elijah's pov.
Anne wrote: "I am in the middle of Something Wicked This Way Comesby Amy Rae Durreson. Many of you will reckognise the title as part of a quote from MacBeth; « By the pricking o..."I'm glad you enjoyed it, Anne. She writes excellent scary stories. I don't tend to care for scary stories either, but I'll read it if Amy Rae Durreson writes it. I hope to get to it soon. New ARD is a cause for celebration. :)
So many books I was excited about came out around the same time, so I'm a bit overwhelmed at the moment by books I really want to read. I also haven't had a whole lot of time to read over the past few weeks, darn it.
Philipp wrote: "I have just finished Dead Man's Quill by Jordan Castillo Price, the currently last part of the ABCs of Spellcraft series and I can only recommend it. It is a lot lighter in tone tha..."I absolutely loved Mnevermind. I may love it even more than Psycop. One of my top favourite JCP's, in any event. I love Elijah. He's a wonderful character and he's so cool and it seemed like a very sensitive portrayal. JCP talked about how much research and interviewing she did and many GR reviews say it's really good rep. I look forward to re-reading it someday.
Philipp wrote: "And that reminds me of her Mnevermind series in regard to the autism discussion, has anyone read these books? One of the MCs is explicitly on the spectrum and I felt like it was a very emphatic portrayal that avoided the pitfalls Brenda talked about."Yes!! I love Mnevermind!! And really, I pretty much love everything I've read from JCP. She even made me love a threesome, and that is usually a very hard sell for me!!
And honestly, Victor Bayne has a lot of 'spectrumy' characteristics as well, so while he has a lot of different issues, he always pings very autistic-coded for me as well.
Brenda wrote: "Yes!! I love Mnevermind!! And really, I pretty much love everything I've read from JCP. She even made me love a threesome, and that is usually a very hard sell for me!!"What she (and Philipp, Jordan, Alison, ...) said ;-)
Elijah is wonderful, and he is thoughtfully and accurately portrayed and I wish we had more representation like that. He's very similar to Gary Bell from the first season of (tv show) Alphas (the less said about the second season of that show, the better, but Gary was still awesome), and Billy Cranston, the Blue Power Ranger from 2017 movie, and the guest character of Fiona Helborn on (tv show) Elementary.
They all were also named as autistic (or in Fiona's case, she preferred "Neuro-Atypical"). And the more we have like that, the more people who are visibly different can be humanized and normalized as part of the diversity of humans.
The thing is though, most people who are autistic, are not that noticeable as being different to the average neurotypical person, but because we don't perform being autistic the way people expect, we aren't believed.
And I definitely get that from the creator's perspective, it would open them up to a lot of the types of arguments we had on the Criminal Minds boards, about the character not fitting the stereotype so they can't *really* be autistic. But... that's the reality *we* live every day.
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But if one or both parties don't know, that miscommunication can cause myriad problems (mostly for the autistic person, which is why the vast majority of autistic people have the trifecta of mental health issues: anxiety/depression/burnout. Not because we're autistic, but because of having to live in an environment that is literally designed to be hostile to us). "
Well said!
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I don't think anyone here minds that you're hijacking the topic with such interesting comments on such important subject.
I have several autistic students myself, so I'm always in for new information and fresh point of views into the subject. Especially when it's from someone who knows what they are talking about! :-)
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I love Victor Bayne. I never thought of him as being Autistic, but you’re right, he easily could be. Pretty much everything JCP writes is amazing.
I remember that threesome. I voted for that in the newsletter poll when she was still writing it. Even I was surprised by my vote. :-P
Johanna wrote: "Brenda wrote: "Alright... I will now stop hijacking this thread and get back on topic..."I don't think anyone here minds that you're hijacking the topic with such interesting comments on such imp..."
Thank you Johanna. <3<3<3
Jordan wrote: "I remember Fiona! I’d never heard the term neuro-atypical, but I rather liked it. "I had never hear it either, at that time. I wasn't sure if I liked it or not when I heard it, because I felt like they were trying to shy away from using the word 'autistic' and use a euphemism instead. But I have since changed my mind about that. It's not a term I use generally, but in some circumstances it's appropriate.
The writer that helped bring her character to life is the same writer who brought Gary Bell (Alphas) to life: Robert Hewitt Wolfe.
I forgot another excellent one, because he was so short lived:
Alex O'Connor from (tv show) Allegiance (played by Gavin Stenhouse). O'Connor was a CIA analyst who's family (unknown to him) was part of a Russian sleeper cell. It was excellent, but it didn't get any traction in the ratings (there were already other well established shows that were similar) so it was cancelled after only 13 episodes (it's might still be on youtube).
I'm not sure they used the word 'autistic' on screen, but they did in some of the media so they weren't shying away from the label. And the actor did an amazing job. They actually portrayed stimming!!! ON TELEVISION, it a way that was entirely authentic. It was amazing to see. I miss the potential of that show so much.
Okay so I have kind of a random, weird question:In Josh's book, The Darkling Thrush... does anyone know what the difference between "veneficus" and "magus" is?
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I’ve not read The Darkling Thrush recently, so I don’t remember, but I’m sure someone else here must know that answer.
Brenda wrote: "In Josh's book, The Darkling Thrush... does anyone know what the difference between "veneficus" and "magus" is?"A HA!! (slaps head) Never mind, I figured it out!! :-D (just had to google the right Latin... /o\)
Jordan wrote: "I’ve not read The Darkling Thrush recently, so I don’t remember, but I’m sure someone else here must know that answer."
<3
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I loved The Courtship of Julian St. Albans, and [book:The Apprenticeship of Julian St...."
NOTE TO SELF. ;-D
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In fairness, it could be the author themselves doesn't know or hasn't decided that the character IS autistic.
Not everyone recognizes autistic people as autistic--and that can be good or bad (being someone fiercely antagonistic to any kind of labeling for any reason, I actually think it's good--but of course I don't think mine is the only opinion on this or anything else).
And sometimes a character starts out one thing and gradually (or not so gradually) reveals himself. So an author may begin a character and a series thinking one thing, and then the book--like life--changes. That's the creative process.
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It is difficult for people of my generation--women in particular--who fought like hell against labels, to see younger people--women in particular--not only accepting, but embracing labels. Defining themselves by labels.
To me, that will never be anything but a catastrophic mistake. But we are all the product of our personal experiences. And the fact that some of our experiences become obsolete or irrelevant is actually a positive.
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I wish that were true, but bullies and other lowlifes can certainly see when someone is elderly or physically disabled, and that doesn't discourage them one whit. Its more about the mechanism that makes someone want to feel better about themselves by taking their frustrations and aggressions out on someone who they perceive as "weaker" and unable to successfully retaliate.
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This is a great analogy.
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..."
Absolutely. Change is affected through popular culture--movies, books and TV--more than any other mechanism.
Which is why the argument that movies, books and TV, can't be blamed for things like kids smoking, or teens driving too fast, or adults thinking guns solve problems in a civilized society is complete nonsense.
If the media couldn't be used to influence, there would be no such thing as advertising.
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..."
Absolutely. Change is..."
AND ALSO: YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!! :-D
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A HA!! (slaps head) Never mind, I figured it out!! :-D (just had to ..."
Well, thank heaves for that because even *I* don't remember at this point! :-D
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And also how really annoying they can be.
:-D :-D :-D
Josh wrote: "Not everyone recognizes autistic people as autistic--and that can be good or bad (being someone fiercely antagonistic to any kind of labeling for any reason, I actually think it's good--but of course I don't think mine is the only opinion on this or anything else)."Labels are indeed tricky, and no one should ever be limited by them. But sometimes they can help save lives. And they can definitely help foster community.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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