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June 2013 Group Read--Nominations
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Carol wrote: "Megan wrote: "What about Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay? Stand alone, and magician/sorcerer"Not sure--it's been a long time. Is there a sword-fighting component? I have the feeling it is much more epi..."
Definitely epic...
All of these are great reads. I admit that I first thought of Ill Met in Lankhmar by Fritz Leiber, but since that has been soundly rec'd, let's see what else I can come up with.I HAVE to mention the Grand Dame herself, Andre Norton. She wrote some of the best fantasy and science fiction ever. For this maybe 'Witch World'.
Then there is Mercedes Lackey and her Valdemar series, but maybe that is too 'epic'?
Same with David and Leigh Eddings 'Belgariad', starting with 'Pawn of Prophecy'. Too epic again?
I must admit to not caring for the distinction nor really seeing one. Sword & Sorcery is S & S no matter how long the story. IMO.
So....how about 'The Riders of the Sidhe' by Kenneth C Flint? Swords & Sorcery and Celtic Legend, my favorites all together.
okay. Went and researched Sword and sorcery some more and can see the points made a little better. This is directly from Wiki (which can always be trusted, lol).The term "sword and sorcery" was first coined in 1961, when the British author Michael Moorcock published a letter in the fanzine Amra, demanding a name for the sort of fantasy-adventure story written by Robert E. Howard. He had initially proposed the term "epic fantasy". However, the celebrated American sword-and-sorcery author Fritz Leiber replied in the journal Ancalagon (6 April 1961) suggesting, "sword-and-sorcery as a good popular catchphrase for the field". He expanded on this in the July 1961 issue of Amra, commenting:
I feel more certain than ever that this field should be called the sword-and-sorcery story. This accurately describes the points of culture-level and supernatural element and also immediately distinguishes it from the cloak-and-sword (historical adventure) story—and (quite incidentally) from the cloak-and-dagger (international espionage) story too! (Fritz Leiber, Amra, July 1961)
Though not explicitly mentioned in Leiber's letter, the originally Italian film genre known as "sword and sandal", depicting heroic adventures in settings derived from the Bible or Greek mythology, was at the peak of its popularity in the US at the time when the letter was written.
Since its inception, many attempts have been made to redefine precisely what "sword and sorcery" is. Although many have debated the finer points, the consensus characterizes it by a strong bias toward fast-paced, action-rich tales set within a quasi-mythical or fantastical framework. Unlike high or epic fantasy, the stakes tend to be personal, the danger confined to the moment of telling. Settings are typically exotic, and protagonists often morally compromised.
Many sword and sorcery tales have been turned into a lengthy series of adventures. Their lower stakes and less-than world-threatening dangers make this more plausible than a repetition of the perils of epic fantasy. So too does the nature of the heroes; most sword-and-sorcery protagonists, travellers by nature, find peace after adventure deathly dull. At one extreme, the heroes of E. R. Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros grieve for the end of the war and that they have no more foes equal to those they defeated; in answer to their prayers, the gods restore the enemy city so that they can fight the same war over again.
With the above in mind, I nominate 'The Stealer of Souls' by Michael Moorcock.I also recommend reading the following post if you are interested in the genre(s).
http://broaduniverse.org/broadsheet-a...
Chris wrote: "Carol wrote: "Megan wrote: "What about Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay? Stand alone, and magician/sorcerer"Not sure--it's been a long time. Is there a sword-fighting component? I have the feeling it is..."
Fair enough - it has been quite a while for me too!
Hmmmmm... Part of me wants to suggest Hounded because it is textbook S&S, but in a modern setting - so it's lumped in with Urban Fantasy, I suppose. Other S&S I've enjoyed that are more recent: The Way of Shadows or perhaps The Blade Itself. The first is a fun read, the second is waaaaayy grittier. And to round it out, why not A Princess of Mars? I know it's sci-fi rather than sorcery, but if you can find someone out there who does more sword-swinging than John Carter of Virginia (besides Conan) I will be surprised!
Well, Leo. You get one nomination, so which do you chose?
John Carter is fantasy...I guess it could be called "science fantasy" but there's actually a strong magic component rather than science. John Carter opens by telling us he's "always looked about 30 and has no idea how old he really is". He's transferred to Mars (Barsoom) by magical means and there are wizards there. A Princess of Mars is actually considered classic S&S right there beside Conan.
Sorry for the overflow, I love recommending books! Yeah, I vote for A Princess of Mars. You can tear through these books by Burroughs, they're quite hard to put down!
I know. I read them back to back when I was "a kid". I got them from Science Fiction Book club. I think all those editions were ruined while I was in the army. My mom and dad stored a big box of books out in a shed and others ended up stored in an open building of my aunt and got mice in them. I had rebuy these, but lost a ton of other books.
Brett wrote: "With the above in mind, I nominate 'The Stealer of Souls' by Michael Moorcock.I also recommend reading the following post if you are interested in the genre(s).
http://broaduniverse.org/broadsh..."
The Stealer of Souls - Brett, I need you to check this link and make sure this is the book you are nominating. There is more than one book with this name showing up for Moorcock.
Chris wrote: "Tyrone wrote: "Somebody please suggest some of the R.E.H Conan stories...they S&S to the core. Mike is correct, even the rest of that series by by the other authors are worth a read......"How abo..."
I like the idea of any of the Conan books. It seems to me that Robert E. Howard pretty much invented this sub genre.
Ooh, I saw John Carter at the cinema last year, I could read that.
I've never read a book that eats, breathes and screams, 'Sword and Sorcery' like Fritz Leiber's stories of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.There's no need to read them in any particular order. In fact, they were written in a different order than what happens chronologically in the stories.
I feel that the three best stories are 'Stardock', 'Adept's Gambit' and 'The Lords of Quarmall' with 'Lean Times in Lakhmar' very strongly contending for a shot at a four-way tie for first place.
'Stardock' and 'The Lords of Quarmall' are both contained in Swords Against Wizardry, making it the best collection, IMO.
'Adept's Gambit' and 'Lean Times in Lakhmar' can both be found in Swords in the Mist, which is a very respectable collection of stories.
I would suggest Swords Against Wizardry since it does a better job of tying the stories into a cohesive whole.
'Stardock' is one of the very few stories of any genre that made me gasp out loud out of concern for one of the character's safety.
Terri wrote: "I've never read a book that eats, breathes and screams, 'Sword and Sorcery' like Fritz Leiber's stories of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.There's no need to read them in any particular order. In fact..."
Gotta pick only one, Terri! :)
I was assuming Swords Against Wizardry.
@Carol Yes, I would pick Swords Against Wizardry as the best stepping-in point for readers new to Fafhrd and The Grey Mouser.I just wanted to explain my choice and tout the series in its entirety while I was at it.
Megan wrote: "What about Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay? Stand alone, and magician/sorcerer"I would second that! I have been wanting to read Guy Gavriel Kay. Quite honestly, I am curious if I'll like him or not!
Sorry, Jalilah, it didn't qualify as S&S.
I joined the group pretty recently.... but I'm curious about this Sword and Sorcery classification. I am not too knowledgable about sub-genres in fantasy.Would Raymond Feist books be Sword and Sorcery, that is what I would think of.... I'm not sure though.
Oh! The Michael J. Sullivan books would be S&S.... or are they more epic fantasy.....
"My opinion throughout"Like all sub-genres S&S will have "border" issues. I like Michael J. Sullivan's books and while they have sword play and magic I'd say they'd have to go mainly into the epic camp. The same would be true of Feist, his books are definitely epic and even sprawling.
I suppose we'll all have areas where we disagree on which side of the genre border certain books fall on.
Oh I'm not really disagreeing I'm just more curious what books I have read that would be classified as S&S The Lies of Locke Lamora? Or maybe Among Thieves Among Thieves.... Although both hint to becoming more sprawling and epic.
Oh Shadow's Daughter by Shirley Meier! I read that when I was a teen. It really stuck in my mind for some reason.
Carol, MrsJ step in here if I'm wrong but I got involved in this discussion, so...again My opinion
I'd say no doubt that neither of those is S&S. The examples given earlier should help give some guide lines. Classic, Conan or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, John Carter of Mars or Kane the Destroyer. More recent examples would be Egil and Nix by Paul S. Kemp or Hawk and Fisher by Simon R. Green. Sometimes books will cause "much consternation and disagreement", like the Amber books. Full of swords and also magic...but not truly S&S, though I know some disagree with me.
I'd say it's in the end a decision for the mods and will depend on the popular vote. Again, my opinion throughout.
If you really want to do a Conan anthology "The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian" is probably the best option. It is cheepish and the first to order the stories the way they were originally written.
Those both look fun, Todd, but the S&S stems more from a pulp fiction background (see above references) and both those you mention seem to focus on the assassin/thief part of the genre. The characters are part of the key, and their methodology in managing crisis.
Okay, we've got enough to go on. I'm going to work on getting the poll up.
I'm not sure if I'm too late, but I thought I'd throw one in others might not have thought of. Samuel R. Delany's Tales of Neveryon. It's sword and sorcery, but he uses the genre to examine race, gender and master slave relations.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Carol, MrsJ step in here if I'm wrong but I got involved in this discussion, so...again My opinion
I'd say no doubt that neither of those is S&S. The examples given earlier should help give so..."
I'd have to agree here. Abnd with Carol as well.
The best way to figure out if something is S&S is the scope of the book. First: It needs to be relatively short. Look at the books that spawned the sub-genre: they tend to be short. The scope of the plot usually does NOT encompass an entire world. The stakes are usually smaller. One great "modern" example of this is the Vows & Honor series by Mercedes Lackey, starting with The Oathbound. This book is about two women - one is a mage, the other a swordswoman - who are out for revenge and to help other (women) in plight. The book is a series of adventures the women have. The stakes here are very small. Each adventure deals with less than 1000 people, if I'm not mistaken. TBH, I think it's less than 500 in most situations. The characters and their motivations are more...personal.
Tyrone wrote: "Somebody please suggest some of the R.E.H Conan stories...they S&S to the core. Mike is correct, even the rest of that series by by the other authors are worth a read..."Someone already suggested Conan (see early thread)
Tyrone wrote: "Has to be the Ill Met in Lankhmar by Fritz Leiber. It is actually a compendium of his first 2 Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books. Alternatively there is a Masterworks version released in the last few..."Tyrone, you had two title suggestions, and the post after you had one that didn't seem to be a nomination but a recommendation on the best book in the series. Since it didn't get straightened out in thread, I took the last and most clear nomination relating to Leiber.
J.R. (message 22) No link. No link, no nomination.
I know i am too late but for those interested I have a few modern S&S books series.Death's Angels or anything else by William King, he is one of the few modern authors that write in that genre.
The Last Wish is the beginning of the most popular polish fantasy series.
And for the genre clarification.. I think S&S needs a heavy grim-dark component with a focus on action.
Not necessarily dark. Look at Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser there's usually a bit of humor even if it's dark humor. S&S books are very much a proto-buddy action genre.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Not necessarily dark. Look at Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser there's usually a bit of humor even if it's dark humor. S&S books are very much a proto-buddy action genre."Agreed. The Drenai series isn't heavy grim-dark and it's certainly S&S. Plus you have the Vows & Honor series by Mercedes Lackey and quite a few others.
Hm.. fair enough. Seems like I only read S&S when it is mixed with a dark setting^^.
sorry for the delayed response, but yes, this is the correct book. It is the very first Elric book Moorcock wrote and starts the series. It may not be the best of the series, But I like to start at the beginning. MrsJoseph wrote: "Brett wrote: "With the above in mind, I nominate 'The Stealer of Souls' by Michael Moorcock.
I also recommend reading the following post if you are interested in the genre(s).
http://broaduniver..."
Any idea when the decision on this is supposed to be made? I only ask because I want to prepare to purchase whatever is being read. I voted in the poll but I don't actually have a real a preference. All the books sound rather interesting. The book I chose isn't in the lead and I have no problems switching my vote to break a tie if necessary.
Evgeny wrote: "What about granddaddy of 'em all: Conan (The Complete Chronicles of Conan)? Most of his stories are free from Project Gutenberg."Ok, Conan won! Looks like Evengy will be leading the discussion, no doubt bolstered by Chris, Mike and Tyrone.
I'll set up threads.
that's ok. Everyone should read at least one Conan novel. He truly set the bar for S&S.
Ed wrote: "When will the winner be revealed?"Message 94. We also started a new thread with "June Epic Read"
Fantasy Aficionados
Books mentioned in this topic
Death's Angels (other topics)The Last Wish (other topics)
The Oathbound (other topics)
The Lies of Locke Lamora (other topics)
Among Thieves (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Fritz Leiber (other topics)Ellen Kushner (other topics)
Fritz Leiber (other topics)
Not sure--it's been a long time. Is there a sword-fighting component? I have the feeling it is much more epic. As mentioned earlier, S&S came out of a pulpy tradition.