Shut Up & Read discussion
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Are unearned 5 star reviews making Indie authors soft
Jacqueline wrote: "I vouch for Bieke. Awesome reader/reviewer!"Aahw, I'm touched. Thanks Jacqueline! I ♥ you!
You're welcome! You were even sick and you soldiered on. I remember.
Jacqueline wrote: "You're welcome! You were even sick and you soldiered on. I remember."Oh yeah, I'm badass. ^_^ Reading always makes me feel better.
You introduced me to sci-fi with your book. ^^ So I'm trying to read more in that genre to. :)
Bieke {call me B.} wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Did you say DYSTOPIAN? I am all ears."Yes, dystopian!
I lost all hope for the genre after some books I really didn't like (just like the angel books... Yikes) and none other the..."
If you want to try mine, it's only 99c for the next week. Book 1 of a trilogy.
Bieke {call me B.} wrote: "Jacqueline wrote: "You're welcome! You were even sick and you soldiered on. I remember."Oh yeah, I'm badass. ^_^ Reading always makes me feel better.
You introduced me to sci-fi with your book. ..."\
Well then... I've served my purpose! I would highly recommend Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet series if you liked the military aspect of my at all. He's a very straight forward, clean writer. Knows just how to make you stand and cheer for the good guys. And there's a hint of romance. Barely. I can never put his books down.
Jack Campbell
Eliza wrote: "Bieke {call me B.} wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Did you say DYSTOPIAN? I am all ears."Yes, dystopian!
I lost all hope for the genre after some books I really didn't like (just like the angel books....."
I live in Belgium, so for now I can't buy anything on Amazon and I don't have Kindle so. :(
That's right! How much does that suck? It's easy to forget that the world wide web isn't quite world wide.I'd send you my copies, but I can't bare to part with them. hehe.
Jacqueline wrote: "Bieke {call me B.} wrote: "Jacqueline wrote: "You're welcome! You were even sick and you soldiered on. I remember."Oh yeah, I'm badass. ^_^ Reading always makes me feel better.
You introduced me..."
Thanks, I'll check his books out!
Bieke Sorry Bieke. Got confused there. Thought Michelle had left that reply. I have you on my list to email tomorrow :-)
Jacqueline wrote: "That's right! How much does that suck? It's easy to forget that the world wide web isn't quite world wide.I'd send you my copies, but I can't bare to part with them. hehe."
You don't have to do that lol. I can buy on BookDepository and some other sites, but it's pretty hard. xD
Eliza wrote: "Bieke Sorry Bieke. Got confused there. Thought Michelle had left that reply. I have you on my list to email tomorrow :-)"
Haha, okay!
This was a great discussion by the way. Thanks to the OP who created this thread.
Got busy but I just wanted to add I'm loving the dystopian novels I've been finding as well, including Angelfall and Free Falling. I'm on another one now, but I'll have to go check those out.
Would it be impolite to mention my dystopian novella or my recent cross genre horror set in a post apocalypse? I might fire a message off to you two D
Michelle wrote: "Would it be impolite to mention my dystopian novella or my recent cross genre horror set in a post apocalypse? I might fire a message off to you two D"No it's not impolite lol. Fire away. ^^
That was a :D grin. Great! Just did! Yay!
Back to the topic, I think part of the problem is that the people who would get their friends and family to spam with high reviews are the sort who are most reluctant to be criticized in the first place.
Back to the topic, I think part of the problem is that the people who would get their friends and family to spam with high reviews are the sort who are most reluctant to be criticized in the first place.
Michelle wrote: "That was a :D grin. Great! Just did! Yay! Back to the topic, I think part of the problem is that the people who would get their friends and family to spam with high reviews are the sort who are m..."
Exactly. I was over on the KDP boards today and read a newbie asking if her newly published book was good. When people started replying that she needed a more professional cover, a better blurb, and a lot of work on grammar, she got all in a huff and said people were rude. Pearls before swine in that case, I say. Value the feedback! Or don't publish.
It may well be part of it Michelle. (Am on my phone so can't us the reply button). The thing is, it's really hard work to produce any kind of manuscript. And even after you've written that first draft, there's even more hard work left on the editing and polishing. Authors are very close to their work. Even if we put aside the issues of grammar and spelling, an author may still not see the "telling versus showing" problems, wooden dialogue, or pacing problems without outside help.
Editing and polishing is a huge learning process. I read Riley's (thread starter) blog post - and for any indie author, it's well worth a read.
Argh! A typo in my post! *use. No edit function on phone... Must. Proofread. Posts!
Fortunately not only do I truly encourage my friends and family to tell me the truth, they actually do. My bff was an awesome beta reader! She helped me keep the science real but accessible. I have a tendency to write science at to technical a level. She reread it several times to help me streamline so it make sense for the characters while being understandable to any reader and not too infodumpy. She was great!
Jacqueline wrote: "Fortunately not only do I truly encourage my friends and family to tell me the truth, they actually do. My bff was an awesome beta reader! She helped me keep the science real but accessible. I have..."She did a great job cause I understood it all and I'm not that smart when it comes to science. XD
There will always be differences in opinion. One man's five will be another's two. That's the beauty of free choice. If we all thought the same way, it would be a very boring world. Please don't mistake the original meaning of my post. I am not talking about one person enjoying what I hated. Or giving a higher rating that me. I don't expect everyone to follow my scoring.
What I am talking about is the many conversations and posts I have seen with book reviewers who ONLY give positive reviews. For some, that means they give a four or a five whether the book deserved it or not, because they've been tricked into thinking anything less than a four is bad. For others, that might mean they only post reviews on books they loved, and don't post anything on books they didn't.
I'm not talking about someone who loved the story and didn't notice the bad grammar. I'm talking about someone who stumbled over it like every other reviewer and maybe didn't even enjoy the storyline but still gave a five star review. That, to me, waters down the five star system.
In some ways, I think we should take away the star system of reviewing, and just write reviews. Say what we liked and didn't like about the book, and don't worry about that elusive star rating. If you didn't have to agonise over a star, would review writing be as hard?
As for making Indie authors soft, please take that in context. I'm not saying all Indie authors are soft, or even that they all take reviews badly. Please don't forget that, at the end of the day, I'm in the same boat as all other Indie writers. The majority of Indie authors are consummate professionals who edit, edit, and then edit some more before finally sending it off to a professional editor just to check it all again.
The majority of Indies would never dream of sniping at someone over a bad review.
But there are definitely those around who just reach the end of their book and then publish it. They don't understand that the editing process is just as important as the writing process.
People can still write if they don't have the best grammar skills. Maybe they are a master story teller who weaves wonderful worlds for readers to enjoy. But I'm sure they also know their grammar skills aren't up to scratch. In that case, do the honest thing and hire a professional editor to mould your craft into the jewel it deserves to be. Don't just send it out there and think people will recognise your raw diamond.
One of the things I talk about in my blog posts is the blood, sweat and tears traditionally published authors had to go through to get their work published. They had to polish their manuscript and then send to an agent or publisher in the hopes they might recognise potential. And even when it was accepted, it then went through a purifying process. Publishing was always a team effort, and the agent and/or publisher acted as the gate keeper to make sure the buying public (generally) got something that was worthwhile reading.
Now all I have to do is sit behind my computer, craft up a few chapters, create a cover on Photoshop and upload to Kindle and I'm a published author.
Of course, for every author like that there are dozens more that do the right thing, but you get the picture.
As reviewers, we have become the gate keepers to the literary world that the agents and publishers used to be!
Mod
Thanks David! I love GR to interact with other readers, including authors. I have found so many great books here written by indie authors I would probably never have had the opportunity to read otherwise. One of my biggest peeves, though, is unsolicited review requests. I get them in my inbox almost every day, and most of the time I simply ignore them. The exception to that is if an author who I have read in the past asks me to read their new book, I most likely will, or if it is a book that I already have on my to-read shelf. However, random requests from authors I've never interacted with before are annoying at best.
I understand it is hard for new authors to get their name out there, but shooting random requests off is probably hurting more than helping. For every request accepted you've got five other people who are turned off by that approach.
With that said, I love this thread. Thank you for the conversation starter, Riley :)
I get why some authors spam review requests to random people. It's a tough market. But unless someone has an open submissions policy stated on their profile, really that's just rude. Going to blogs and following their submission policies is one thing, but just sending your request out to dozen or more over and over is counterproductive, and more likely to get you a bad review then anything else.
I've made more sales and some of my best reviews by interacting on threads, then find out later that someone stalked my profile/books and bought them. Now that's flattering! They were curious enough about me to find out about my work and so forth.
My dad was a salesman for most of my childhood and the one thing we both hated was the hard sell. I've developed an allergy to being hard-selled. Whatever you're pushing, I immediately don't want it. Yet some people just don't get this concept.
Their loss.
Riley wrote: "As for making Indie authors soft, please take that in context. I'm not saying all Indie authors are soft, or even that they all take reviews badly. Please don't forget that, at the end of the day, ..."
I wish I could agree with that word 'majority'. I'd say about half of them can take it; perhaps it only seems like the vocal minority comprises a large chunk...but I hear a LOT of whining when people get a critique they hate. It may not be in public...but it does seem like a lot of people refuse to take a critique, even a politely worded and friendly one.
I wish I could say that reviews of other indies and indie reviews in general were not judged on a different standard. I know we can't take ourselves seriously until we stop trying to soften reviews.
Indie books deserve recognition and legitimacy. That means we need to give and get legit reviews.
I wish I could agree with that word 'majority'. I'd say about half of them can take it; perhaps it only seems like the vocal minority comprises a large chunk...but I hear a LOT of whining when people get a critique they hate. It may not be in public...but it does seem like a lot of people refuse to take a critique, even a politely worded and friendly one.
I wish I could say that reviews of other indies and indie reviews in general were not judged on a different standard. I know we can't take ourselves seriously until we stop trying to soften reviews.
Indie books deserve recognition and legitimacy. That means we need to give and get legit reviews.
It pleases me to see authors on here talking sense about polishing MS, engaging with beta readers and open to receiving honest opinions about their work. That's what I like about GR forums. There are forums out there with too much of the 'other' type of discussion going on. Authors can learn from thinking like and engaging with readers. After all, that's who we write for.
Sheri wrote: "David wrote: "I know this is getting long, but I might get up on my own soapbox and rail against self-promotion on sites like GRs. This is my biggest pet peeve. Too many Indie authors are joining s..."Here here! Thanks Sheri! I'm fighting the good fight against Indie spam on GRs although it still seems to be getting worse! I'm not saying GRs isn't a great way of getting your books out there (if it wasn't for GRs I wouldn't be a full time author as it's my primary way of getting noticed by more readers) but there are right ways and wrong ways of doing it. Becoming a part of the community and adding value to it are key. NOT always talking about your books is key too. If someone asks you about your book in a thread, that's different, take the opportunity to answer their questions. But don't post frivolously! Use the program's in place and follow the rules! Read to reviews, group Indie interview program's, your fan group: those are the right ways. In my opinion anyway ;)
Loving all the comments by the way, this thread has become a good and interesting one, thanks Riley :)
Bieke {call me B.} wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Did you say DYSTOPIAN? I am all ears."Yes, dystopian!
I lost all hope for the genre after some books I really didn't like (just like the angel books... Yikes) and none other the..."
Thanks Bieke! I'm glad The Moon Dwellers got you back into dystopian and you found some good ones! It's also awesome to have you in my fan group! You were there early on when it was still less than a thousand members so I always value your honest review, and positive and constructive feedback :)
Just thrilled there has been such a response to my post. Really enjoy hearing all the differing opinions.
Riley wrote: "As reviewers, we have become the gate keepers to the literary world that the agents and publishers used to be! "I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing how this is the case. I guess there are some reviewers at GR and elsewhere who've achieved this sort of Olympian status, but I can state quite confidently that I have not. As in, I don't think I've ever had a review here at GR earn more than five likes. And, actually, this business of being some sort of gatekeeper is not a mantle I'd be all that willing to assume...I'm simply an amateur doing something I enjoy; I'd be reluctant to post reviews if people suddenly started thinking otherwise.
Or are you referring to a kind of literary variant of The Wisdom of Crowds? As in, the grain of sand that happens to be my review ultimately either slightly adds to or is easily offset by the opinion generated by the mass of other reviews? That I can sort of see, the only caveat there being I'm not sure how my review would be noticed once a book has dozens of reviews attached to it.
David wrote: "Bieke {call me B.} wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Did you say DYSTOPIAN? I am all ears."Yes, dystopian!
I lost all hope for the genre after some books I really didn't like (just like the angel books....."
Aah Thanks David! I'm trying to get to reading your books lol. I just have to many books to read. XD
I was going to post something, but all the good points have already been posted! I will say that if my book gets a bad review, I don't mind as long as it's an honest opinion. There is nothing worse than getting a 1 star review because somebody had a technical issue with Amazon.
Unearned anything makes most people soft. Whether it is the school that ensures every kid receives a gold star simply for breathing, or the reviewer that hands out 5 star ratings like candy. Unearned rewards breed entitlement.With that said...
As a writer, I appreciate any honest review- even a negative one. As a reviewer I never like giving anything below a 3 star to any book, especially an indie book (established, mainstream books have a much bigger audience and more resources so it would seem my small review would do little to the success of the book). So, if I felt the book was bad enough to warrant a 2 or 1 star rating, then I just wouldn't rate it at all. Basically the book review version of, "if you can't say anything nice..." After all, this is the author's baby. They've poured themselves into this and are trying to get it off the ground without a huge marketing budget or boatloads of time on their side.
If the review was by request then I prefer to write the author a private email explaining the challenges I saw in the writing. If it was only a matter of spelling/grammar errors* then I would just suggest they enlist a beta reader. If my low rating was due to issues with poor storyline or character development then I'd simply explain that everyone's tastes are different and tell them what didn't work for me. If the author directly requests a review still be posted, knowing that is is a 1 or 2 star rating, then I would definitely do as they requested.
As a reader/reviewer there are a few musts for any book I read, 1)character development, 2)plot development, 3)consistency (if her name has been Jane for the 1st 100 pages, it needs to be Jane through the next 100). Without those the reader will be lost and/or uninterested. At the same time, I try to keep in mind what type of story I am reviewing when I rate it. If it is a hot and heavy paranormal romance I obviously shouldn't be expecting world building on par with Tolkien or Donaldson. That wasn't the purpose of the story. So while I personally, as a writer, can't imagine not building vivid and detailed worlds for my stories, as a reviewer I need to be able to rate the book based on others of its genre, not just my personal preferences.
For instance I really enjoy strong female characters and dislike, with equal ferocity, whinny, wimpy female characters that just wait around for the hero to rescue them. But if that is my only issue with the book and I can objectively acknowledge that everything else (character/plot development, etc.) is well done then I will give it a 3 or 4 star rating, despite my not enjoying the story, because of the high quality of work. I would explain my personal dislike for that particular element in the review but I would still acknowledge the good work that went into it.
This is such an interesting topic! :-)
*The spelling/grammar would have to be nearly unreadable for it to drop my rating below a 3, I tend to focus more on content.
R.M.F wrote: "I was going to post something, but all the good points have already been posted! I will say that if my book gets a bad review, I don't mind as long as it's an honest opinion. There is nothing worse..."I couldn't agree more. If my book gets a low rating/review that is ok, everyone's tastes are different. However, I would hope that it is because my book actually deserves the rating and that the reviewer details what didn't work for them so that other potential readers can decide if that issue is a deal breaker for them or something they can live with.
Brooke wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "I was going to post something, but all the good points have already been posted! I will say that if my book gets a bad review, I don't mind as long as it's an honest opinion. There is..."Hear hear.
As said previously, most of the indie authors I know read critical reviews and appreciate the feedback. Of course a bad review hurts, but the honesty is good for us. We KNOW when a 5 star review is bogus, and it feels condescending. I will say, however, that a recent review from a "friend" had me really upset. Not because of the star rating, but because he said my book wasn't worth the money he spent. That was just as hurtful, to my ego and dedication to writing, as obviously empty praise from a relative or friend.
Riley wrote: "Hi all, Thought you might like to read a blog I wrote on reviewing books. It's title is The Negative Side to Positive Reviews, and it talks about how undeserved 5 star reviews are actually making..."
From an author's perspective, frankly, my goal is to put out the best that I can. When an author puts out a book without making sure it's edited by a pro, that's an insult to readers. I do not think that poorly edited books should get high reviews, no. I think every reviewer has their own reasons for liking or not liking a book.
As in all things, balance is good. You don't rate a book highly if you don't enjoy it, and on the other hand, you try and balance the positive with the negative. An author worth his/her salt will learn from constructive criticism, and take that lesson to their next project. An author who reacts with anger to a bad review and makes that anger public is making a huge mistake. You never comment on reviews - good or bad. You simply accept them, learn from them, take the challenge, enjoy the praise, and move on.
We must also allow for a certain degree of subjectivity. A book may be good by technical standards, but not a reviewer's cup of tea. That's fine as well. I think both sides should be professional and respectful - and sometimes even stop taking things too seriously :))).
Judy wrote: "Michelle wrote: "That was a :D grin. Great! Just did! Yay! Back to the topic, I think part of the problem is that the people who would get their friends and family to spam with high reviews are t..."
Authors should have a team set up before and when they publish:
1. The crit partner to bounce off plot ideas with and get feedback for every chapter. Make that a capable crit partner with - preferably - more experience. A pro editor would be THE stroke of luck.
2. The editor - a great one to whip your book in shape.
3. The proofreader to catch straggling errors.
4. Beta readers, to get reader-oriented feedback and make changes accordingly.
5. A talented cover designer.
Even after all of this, it doesn't hurt to get peer or reader feedback, including for the cover. One must engage all resources in this process. A hard head and too much pride won't serve well.
I love dystopian novels!! I must very lucky as I have only given the odd negative review, but that was because the book was not to my liking, though I know plenty of people would enjoy them. When I have given a negative review I always say what the positives are and why I didn't like the book personally and I always try to say something positive about it, even if it is only the style of writing.
Carol wrote: "I love dystopian novels!! I must very lucky as I have only given the odd negative review, but that was because the book was not to my liking, though I know plenty of people would enjoy them. When I..."My fav dystopian novel is The Children of Men (the book of course, not the movie).
I agree 100% I even put it in my rules and polices that if you give me your book and I spend anytime reading it at all I will write whatever the truth is about your book, if I love it then great if not, sorry to say it, but sucks to be you. I'm a passionate reviews so my positives are enthusiastic and my negatives can be a little rough around the edges. I also have a interview process, if you want me to read your book they have to send me the first chapter and a brief description. If I don't like either I say no and no one gets hurt, if I'm intrigued I let them know I will do it but reiterate my rules.
It's fun being a reviewers and I take pride in my reviews, I so often find books that have great reviews and they suck and it's because the virtual readers were to soft to be honest, another reason I don't get to know my authors until after I read the book.
Lit Bug wrote: "Sorry for interrupting the thread, but I don't understand the term indie authors - have heard it for the first time."Indie authors (Independent Authors) are writer that don't work with an agent or a publishing house. They write the book, pay someone to edit it (or edit it themselves, which I don't recommend) They make or pay someone else to make the cover of their book; they write their own blurb, and they publish the book themselves. If you go through Createspace for print books, and Amazon KDP, Pubit (B&N) and Smashwords for eBook, it doesn't cost you a dime out of pocket. You get paid royalties for your work, just as you would if you went through a publishing house, and your work remains your own. The downside is that it's all on you. Marketing the book will be your responsibility, and it's a hard thing to do. But to be honest, unless you already a big name author, the marketing would be on you through a publishing house, too. Hope this helped.
I don't understand how the author can say she only 'allows' positive reviews to be posted for her book. That's a bunch of bullshit. When you put your book out into the world, the reviews you get are the reviews you get. PERIOD. I've got 6 novels out right now and I have several 4 and 5 star reviews, but, damn it, I earned them. I also have a couple of 1 and 2 star reviews, and that's fine, too. I'm a big girl and I'm always wearing my big girl panties. I know that not every book is going to be for everyone. Take Twilight, for example. I personally didn't care for it, but apparently a lot of people loved it. As a matter of fact, Twilight is what got me started in writing. My niece liked the books, but thought they were a bit kiddish. Well, of course they were, they were written for teenagers; whereas she was 24 years old and married at the time. I jokingly told her I'd write her her very own vampire series, one that was for grown-ups, but not 'Mommy Porn'. I was joking, but she held me to it and that's how I ended up writing the Blood Thirst Series, the final book in the series, The Wrath of Potter was just released yesterday. I hope I get good reviews on it, but I'm not going to flip out if I get a bad one. It happens. I don't like it when an author gets their friends and family to write 5 star reviews for them, especially if the book isn't that great. It's cheating, and you're lying to potential customers. Reviews aren't suppose to be for the author (though the good ones do make us feel good. LOL). Reviews are for the people who are considering investing time and money in that book. They're trusting a reviewer to tell them if it's worth the time and money or if they should just pass on the book. If you give a 2 star book a 5 star review, you're lying to that next customer. Rate a book, for better or worse, how you think it should be rated. If the author can't take that, then they should grow a thicker skin...or find a different line of work. If you're waiting for everyone in the world to love what you do, then you're going to be waiting until you bones turn to dust. But That's just my opinion.
Stephanie wrote: "I don't understand how the author can say she only 'allows' positive reviews to be posted for her book. That's a bunch of bullshit. When you put your book out into the world, the reviews you get ar..."Agree with EVERYTHING you just said. Cheer cheer! Oh, and funny that we both started writing fiction the same way but instead of for my niece, I wrote Vampire Origins for my daughter.
Most of the trailers that I see are so poorly written that I never even consider reviewing them. What surprises me is when I see people giving virtually every book they read 5 stars... seems like a bad book equates to four stars. I would consider this a fault of the reviewers. I was very amused the other day when I got a request from an indie author for an honest review - but he added a stipulation that I only post my review if it was four stars or higher.
I laughed when I read that Joseph but it's actually quite sad that there are authors out there blundering around, not realising how bad they make themselves (and other Indie authors) look with these tactics. I also had an author castigate me for daring to post a 3 star review (admittedly on a book that probably deserved 1 star), telling me she only allowed people to post reviews if they were 4 stars or above. She even had the nerve to ask me to take down my reviews. I do think that many reviewers really don't have any idea how to write proper reviews. In fact, a large portion of what I see online is really just a book report, or a recap of the story. It offers nothing useful to any reader wanting to buy the book. There are so many badly written reviews out there that it prompted another blog post - 6 things you need to know before you write a review http://www.rileybanks.net/3/post/2013...
I suppose the biggest thing to change is our perception of who we write reviews for. Too many people think we are writing reviews for authors. That's so wrong. Reviews are only there to inform potential readers. They are your audience, not the author who wrote the book in the first place.
That said, Victoria Grefer, an indie author, blogged about the very same topic: http://crimsonleague.com/2013/05/08/h...
Finally, I don't mind bad grammar as long as it's used in dialog by the book's characters. Then it can be quite refreshing at times.