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Riley Banks
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Are unearned 5 star reviews making Indie authors soft
I worry when I do NOT see 1 or 2 stars and beg my reviewers for honesty. I also leave honest reviews for even my most beloved indie books. I appear to be an exception; my fellow indies have been known to whinge.
*applause* I've been doing the same in giving back to the community by writing fair, honest but not cruel reviews and mostly I have positives responses. But I've also had a few snips my way. Just had a comment on Zon yesterday about 'why I only give negative reviews, haven't I ever read a 4 or 5 star book?' Actually I have, but I hadn't gotten around to uploading all my reviews to Amazon, so that silly comment lit a fire under my butt and I transferred all my current reviews there too. Wouldn't want anyone getting the 'wrong' idea about me.
I'm sure some people think I'm negative but when I read a book I love, my audience is the first to know. Have posted a couple of four and five star reviews.
I hate being guilted into five and four stars and I hate it when I can see through a review for guilt stars. Especially on my own.
I figuratively sweat blood and literally stay up until 4 AM to craft beautiful prose. I prefer honest hatred to false flattery.
I figuratively sweat blood and literally stay up until 4 AM to craft beautiful prose. I prefer honest hatred to false flattery.
As an Indie author myself I prefer to have a few lower-rated reviews because they show that I'm not "just posting my own reviews". I don't enjoy reading that my writing is stiff or the characters annoying (of course it sucks to hear that). But sometimes we need to hear the negative in order to improve. And, it helps when people are reading well balanced reviews of my work. Nobody will buy a book with only 5 star "omg it was like amazing!" reviews. Well, maybe they would if I were Steven King - which I'm not. Just my two cents.
Thanks for boldly posting your opinions here, Riley. I agree completely with much of what you say, and echo what you said about "honest reviews" most of all. A couple of my most life-changing reviews were quite negative (but fair) two star reviews. I contacted the two reviewers not to complain or argue, but to commend them on pointing out flaws I was unaware of and that made me a better writer going forward. Those two reviewers are now dear friends and two of the most solid and helpful members of my beta team. If they'd been overly positive or simply hadn't posted reviews, I wouldn't be as good a writer today. Something else to point out is how many paid reviews are out there. I've found several books that's reviews were so similar (all five stars with promotional one liners at the beginning) that there was no doubt they'd been bought. Scary stuff for those of us who are scrounging for reviews the honest way.
The only thing I might disagree with you on, is that giving out a five star review to what you consider a subpar book to be a bad thing. I'd say it's more gray than that and depends fully on the reviewer. A reviewer can give an Indie book that in your mind isn't worth five stars, a five star review, because it moved them in a way that's personal to them. Or they simply might have a less critical eye than you. I would argue that's ok too and part of what makes this all worth it- that different people are drawn to different books and writing styles. Some people just like more books and therefore have a higher average rating than you might. Just some good for thought..
I know this is getting long, but I might get up on my own soapbox and rail against self-promotion on sites like GRs. This is my biggest pet peeve. Too many Indie authors are joining sites like GRs with the primary goal of promoting their books and in many cases, spamming the sites with posts about their books. As a reader, that really turns me off. I argued quite strongly against that approach in my blog post: http://davidestesbooks.blogspot.com/2...
If authors want to be on sites like GRs, be there as a reader first and add value to the community, don't use it as an open forum to sell your wares. Just my opinion and advice.
Sorry for interrupting the thread, but I don't understand the term indie authors - have heard it for the first time.
Good points Dave. I know reviews are subjective and that people might love books I hated and vice versa. The problem comes not from giving a five star review for something you enjoyed but in giving them even when you know they don't deserve it. I've heard reviewers admit to not wanting to hurt the writer's feelings and giving 4 & even 5 stars for a book. There are two reasons why I think that approach is wrong. One, as you pointed out, the writer never learns where their writing could be improved. And two, it waters down the review process in its entirety. If every book is given five stars, how do we differentiate what was genuinely given and what was sympathy given?
Just my humble opinion, of course.
Lit Bug wrote: "Sorry for interrupting the thread, but I don't understand the term indie authors - have heard it for the first time."Indie Authors are self-published authors. :)
I wouldn't feel good about a rating or review that wasn't honest. Although, I admit to not liking average reviews, it is not my place to correct someone else's honest opinion of my work. I've chosen to put it out in the public domain, so I have to be okay with differing opinions. Anyone who pesters or argues with readers for a better review should take a closer look at their work.
Lit Bug wrote: "Sorry for interrupting the thread, but I don't understand the term indie authors - have heard it for the first time."It used to mean authors published by small independent publishers, not the big four or six (dependent on your country of origin!)
It is now most commonly used for self published authors.
Riley wrote: "Hi all, Thought you might like to read a blog I wrote on reviewing books. It's title is The Negative Side to Positive Reviews, and it talks about how undeserved 5 star reviews are actually making..."
I agree that an honest review is better than a positive one. An honest review is all you can hope for. Someone puts their work out there, they need to be prepared for anyone who won't like it or who thinks it's average. Although I've seen some negative reviews get totally carried away and start insulting the author and such. If you're going to give a negative review, at least keep it on the topic of the book and not the person who wrote it.
It used to mean authors published by small independent publishers, not the big four or six (dependent on your country of origin!)It is now most commonly used for self published authors.
Got it now - I publish my own book and come under indie authors. Isn't it difficult to promote books for indie authors? How do they make their work known then?
This subject has come up in a few groups lately. It's a bit of a problem I think - the plethora of four and five star reviews. I've been a bit startled by some of the books I've read that have them. When I review, I try and use Goodreads star ratings - amazing for me (5 stars) means that I'll probably read it multiple times and it will be a total favourite forever. This means that I don't tend to give lots of 5 star reviews, but a 4 star still means that I really enjoyed it. On the other hand 3 stars on Goodreads still means "I liked it" which for me means that it probably had a good plot, and reasonable writing. By the time we're at 2 stars "it was OK" means that there are issues - writing, plot, or perhaps personal preference (which I always explain).Many people are now highly suspicious of books that have only high reviews - probably unjustly for quite a number of those books, but I think it's actually hurting quite a lot of authors. As someone who is traditionally published, but by a small publisher (traditionally = submit, offered a contract, and nothing paid for by me, and all editing, proofreading, etc provided by the publisher), I see it as an ongoing issue.
As a reader, I'm suspicious, so after now having read a number of self published books that have come complete with poor grammar, poor spelling and interesting writing, I tend to shy away from books with gushing reviews. And that means that I, like probably many others, am shying away from books like my own - not published by the big publishers, but at least decently edited and proofread and (so I'd like to think!) with a good story line and reasonable writing.
I think it's a major dilemma. As a reader, I'm now trying to be very honest in my reviews, but it is tricky being tactful sometimes. At the same time, I acknowledge that as a writer, I like good reviews, but I also need to know what readers don't like - and that means coping with less than glowing reviews, and learning from them. (After I stop rocking in the corner...) :)
Riley wrote: "Good points Dave. I know reviews are subjective and that people might love books I hated and vice versa. The problem comes not from giving a five star review for something you enjoyed but in giving..."Agree with all of the above :) And I've heard the same thing from reviewers about not wanting to hurt feelings, which I agree is not the right approach as it hurts other readers who are trying to decide what books to read.
I agree. I think if you "hand out" 4 and 5 star reviews, you are robbing the author of becoming a better writer.
David wrote: "Thanks for boldly posting your opinions here, Riley. I agree completely with much of what you say, and echo what you said about "honest reviews" most of all. A couple of my most life-changing revie..."I am highly tempted to 5-star every one of your books just for that! : )
However, I will refrain (unless of course I think they are 5 star).
From one of the best books of all:
"The wounds from a lover are worth it;
kisses from an enemy do you in."
Proverbs 27:6
Lol Jen! I'm glad you're honest with me and I respect you for that! Above all else, I value your friendship, humor, and truth :) (but feel free to five star them all, I won't stop you lol)
That's just awful. XD Not everyone likes the same books and I've learned to accept that, but some authors like the ones you mention, don't. I understand it, they want their book to be liked and loved, but not every one will and not everyone has the talent to write. It seems easy, writing a novel, but it really isn't because there is a lot that comes with it. And I, too, have come across books that I received for review and didn't like. One in particular. I read the book and I didn't like it. It was full of spelling and grammatical errors and I didn't like the story in general. But despite that, I read the second book because she requested reviews for both. I didn't like that one either for the same reasons. And since I'm from Belgium, my autocorrect still changed the words to dutch ones and in my review one word changed and because of that she decided not to take my reviews serious and before that she asked me to read her books again and correct all the errors. I was offended by her. It's not my job to correct her books and when I make time to read her books, both of them even when I didn't like the first book, I expect from the author to take it seriously and not be so mean just because of a bad review. David actually helped me with that one. Don't know if he remembers though. He gave me some very helpful advice on how to handle the situation.Since then I'm afraid to write a negative review. Especially because it was one of my first requests to review and I only started reviewing a few weeks before that. I avoid being direct and to negative and try to highlight the positive things instead of the negative ones even when I gave 3 stars or less. And when I receive a request and the blurb doesn't sound interesting enough to me, I decline. Only to avoid writing a negative review.
Since then I'm afraid to write a negative review.Sorry you had that happen. No one should ever be afraid to write a negative review. Especially if it's honestly phrased and comes from the heart rather than written with obvious vitriol. One can always tell the different.
I'd much rather someone tell me their honest, enthusiastic opinion, good or bad, then false positive or negative just to avoid a certain outcome. I don't have to like it, but I've found that I actually enjoy the honest reviews far more then "Love it/Hate it" ones. Those are just... boring. And a writer of any kind should never be boring, hehe.
Jacqueline wrote: "Since then I'm afraid to write a negative review.Sorry you had that happen. No one should ever be afraid to write a negative review. Especially if it's honestly phrased and comes from the heart r..."
I'm always honest, good or bad, but I do wrap a positive bow around it :P If I didn't like it, I'll say so and why, but I'll always highlight the positive things. For me that's the best way to write a negative review and that way, it's not harsh or mean and still useful to the author.
I do remember that Bieke and I was glad to help, even if in just a small way :) An honest reviewer should never be treated that way by an author!
David wrote: "I do remember that Bieke and I was glad to help, even if in just a small way :) An honest reviewer should never be treated that way by an author!"I was honest to you wasn't I? You gave me hope for the Dystopian genre again. :P Don't forget that.
Lol you absolutely were and I appreciated it wholeheartedly :)
I believe that you are, Bieke, and I'm grateful for it. :o)
As an author myself, I take a lot of value in an honest review. In an ironic twist of fate, I was actually quite disappointed when I read some 4-5 star reviews I received for my book.In one of the reviews, they said that they could relate to my main character, Julia and thought she was a great protagonist.
Well that's awesome and all... but her name is Cindy. I don't even know where the name Julia came from. A mix up from Jadie maybe?
Although I appreciated the rating, I wasn't quite sure how to feel about the glaring mistake that was repeated over and over. I knew it was for my book because all the other information was accurate. But I felt like the value of the review went down because I wasn't sure what readers would think by seeing the name of a non-existent character plastered all over the place.
I mean, first and foremost it ruins my credibility because it makes it seem like I bought the review. Second, it makes me wonder if the 4 star rating was even deserved.
I've responded to most of the negative reviews in a positive and grateful manner. I can't say I've made best friends, but I like to think that the reviewers appreciated that I wasn't the least bit upset about their negative review.
Truly, if an author gets offended for getting less than a 5 star review, they shouldn't be authors. You HAVE to have a thick skin and can't expect everyone to love your work. At the same time, people shouldn't be jerks when voicing their opinion, which I thankfully haven't seen much of.
I don't think Indie Authors are going soft per sé, I just think they're not prepared for the criticism that comes their way.
That's because the majority of Indie authors are not people who've been writing fiction for years, struggling and studying the craft, then decide to take advantage to this new paradigm. Anyone who's been writing seriously, studying creative writing in any manner through classes or self-study and critique groups understands the value of good concrit and craves it. Unfortunately, the majority of Indie authors are people who wake up one morning and think... Hey, I can write a book too! I've always dreamed about writing a book. Cool! And while, yes, technically they can write a book, it takes so much more to craft a good, well-written book. It's not just about slapping together a few thousand words, full steam ahead and damn the grammar police!
Serious writers study how to craft a well-written story for years. They continue to study how to improve each and every work they craft. How to tweak each sentence, each scene, each bit of dialogue to get just SO.
Being literate makes one a writer. It does not make one a good writer. And it most definitely does not make one a great writer.
I've heard horror stories about writers posting a well-deserved negative review for a book and then having hate campaigns against their own books with one star reviews. Because of this, if I'm asked to review a book I'll flat out tell them no if I see issues, and I'll say why I'm saying no. I also warn them if it's going to be less than three stars so they can decide whether they want my review or not. I figure that way at least they're getting some feedback. I only give five stars to the very best books. Most books for me that I enjoyed get three or four stars.
It's happened. Not to me, but I've had a few 'friends of the author' snip at me for daring to give a negative review in public after the author had put the book in a read to review program. Bwahahaha! I very firmly but politely explained that once someone put themselves out there in the public eye, asks for honest reviews and is expecting some portion of the public to buy their work, then they are officially a professional writer and had better get their big girl panties on. If the author didn't want public negative reviews, only private ones, then she'd better avoid R2R programs and instead search for more betas.
It's a risk I take, which is also way I don't take open submissions of R2R only paid editing work. I review through programs, free offers from authors and books I purchase. But I deeply believe that if Indies who have a critical but fair critical eye don't review honestly across the board, who will?
I've had far more readers give me positive responses saying that my review articulated what they felt but couldn't put into words. I've also had other authors respond positively. But then I do my best to write upbeat, balanced, professional and non-hurtful reviews. I believe in constructive criticism not destructive criticism as some others like to practice.
Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, do keep in mind that my version of 2, 3, 4, or 5♥'s may be totally different than another reviewer's version. For example, there was an Indy book/author where I gave 5♥'s- I was blown away and plan on re-reading it in the future, while another reader (a harder 'grader' on the rating scale) actually even gave the book 4♥'s (which is near impossible to get- 5 from the reviewer is like the Holy Grail level of impossible)... Pretty much it seems like reviewers and Indy authors are all between a rock and a hard place. If we give (or authors get) only good reviews, they are 'damned' as fake reviews, if we give negative reviews, then they are 'damned' for being negative (even if it does not attack authors or cross lines)...
It just seems like there is no way to win for reviewers or authors, period.
I hate hearing about indie authors emailing reviewers, begging them to change their reviews and what not. That's inexcusable. I prefer honesty over looking good. How will I ever improve my writing if I don't listen? I've had plenty of good reviews but also bad. I listened to the bad reviews and it gave me the drive to be better. Any well respected author should feel the same. I'm currently going through my first book again after having several " I like but...." reviews. My books are going to be out there for years to come. I don't want my name attached to something that's sloppy. If the readers are going to take the time to read it, then they deserve quality. Authors if you want respect, then respect your readers.
Alana ~ The Book Pimp wrote: "Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, do keep in mind that my version of 2, 3, 4, or 5♥'s may be totally different than another reviewer's version. For example, there was an Indy book/author..."Good point Alana! Scales of rating are different for each reviewer. Look at some of the well known published authors. They can have a ton of 4 and 5 star ratings but they also have 1 & 2. It just depends upon the reader.
The thing that really makes me mad is indie authors getting irate with readers because of their reviews. They should be thankful that they at least took the time to read it. Not every person is going to like an authors work. You have to take the good with the bad. Getting angry and arguing with readers is going to do nothing but set up a bad rep for the author.
Bieke {call me B.} wrote: "David wrote: "I do remember that Bieke and I was glad to help, even if in just a small way :) An honest reviewer should never be treated that way by an author!"I agree with Jacqueline. Negative reviews are fine, as long as the reviewer keeps the comments about the book and not the author. Bieke, I write dystopian fiction and you have my permission to write whatever review you wish about my book. I won't challenge you on it :-)
In defence of Indie authors of which I am one, I know many who treat writing as a business and would never challenge an honest review in the ways described above. The people who are acting like brats when someone calls them on the lack of editing or poor cover design are in it to make a quick buck. I would call that a hobby, not a writing career.
The different scale is a very good point. But I think what the original point was when you read a poorly written boook--and I mean, grammatical errors, verb tense problems, large plot holes, etc and yet so many reviewers (some even blog reviewers, hmmm not just family/friends) have given it 5 stars. I had a commenter on one of my 2 star reviews (who had given the same book 5 stars) complain about my review and then go one to comment that yes, she'd see the grammar errors, but didn't gig any stars for them. And this book had grammar errors in practically every sentence! I would've had to workshop the entire manuscript and be paid a heavy sum to line edit it if hired.
This is this sort of problem that lowers the meaning of a 5 star review.
So many other professions and sports are gigged for technical aspects of their work. Grammar is important people. I'm not talking about a few typos. I'm talking about understanding how to write using the proper language (English or other). You can tell the difference.
Eliza wrote: "Bieke {call me B.} wrote: "David wrote: "I do remember that Bieke and I was glad to help, even if in just a small way :) An honest reviewer should never be treated that way by an author!"I agree ..."
Your book actually sounds good. :) If you ever look for someone to read & review your book, you can find my contact info here and I'll squeeze it in somewhere in my schedule. :)
Well... again, to be Devil's advocate... (sorry but it's so much fun!)There are reviewers out there (like me) that are bad at grammar... unless it's super obvious, I may not even notice issues that would drive other readers batty. I may notice a stray misspelled word, or misuse of a word (they're instead of their or something) ... but unless I really notice it, I'm not going to let it affect my rating/review. So, does that mean my 5 star reviews are worth less because I wouldn't be able to identify a change in point of view even if it bit me on the a$$?
I love you people.
Have I mentioned the story on my latest book? A reviewer on my blog tour found the sexuality and cussing unpleasant and declined to write a review. I begged her for an honest negative review because my reviews are so positive and I worried that my book DOES look artificially inflated. She never replied, but still, that amused me.
Does anyone else dislike it when they get a neg review from someone who appears to be concealing their identity? I always contact my negs and ask for more feedback in a friendly tone. I have gotten it, on occasion, and am grateful, but it saddens me that reviewers are so scared of indie wrath that they decline even friendly requests. Some of us want to improve! I waited nine years before I got into self-publishing and I am committed to my craft. I have no plans to bite heads off for honesty.
I wish I could say the same for all my colleagues. A few of us are working on a project to try to fix this horrible quality control issue in the market...
Have I mentioned the story on my latest book? A reviewer on my blog tour found the sexuality and cussing unpleasant and declined to write a review. I begged her for an honest negative review because my reviews are so positive and I worried that my book DOES look artificially inflated. She never replied, but still, that amused me.
Does anyone else dislike it when they get a neg review from someone who appears to be concealing their identity? I always contact my negs and ask for more feedback in a friendly tone. I have gotten it, on occasion, and am grateful, but it saddens me that reviewers are so scared of indie wrath that they decline even friendly requests. Some of us want to improve! I waited nine years before I got into self-publishing and I am committed to my craft. I have no plans to bite heads off for honesty.
I wish I could say the same for all my colleagues. A few of us are working on a project to try to fix this horrible quality control issue in the market...
Alana: you're correct. For me, I would never comment on something I don't have enough experience on. But I'm talking about those who do notice (like the reviewer who admitted to me she noticed and yet still give such atrocious grammar a pass.)That's wrong. A few typos here and there aren't a big deal even to me. But line by line grammar issues? The writer required a remedial English writing class. That's not in any way shape or form a 5 star book. The only reason I didn't give it 1 star was because she actually has the concept of an interesting story and a few other positives I noted.
Ugh, grammar is something that will flat out stop me from reading further. I can't help it; I was an English major. I know, however, that it doesn't stop everyone, and that some badly written books can actually do very well (cough 50 shades, cough). What I hear from successful writers is that the story tends to outweigh grammar. A good riveting story can get away with more mistakes. That may be true, but it still puts off readers like me.
Michelle wrote: "I love you people. Have I mentioned the story on my latest book? A reviewer on my blog tour found the sexuality and cussing unpleasant and declined to write a review. I begged her for an honest n..."
Nah, as long as they come in and write their review in a constructive fashion, they can be as anonymous as they want. Considering the horror stories I'm reading about in this thread, I can't say I blame them.
Bieke, I'll take you up on that offer. I'll drop you an email tomorrow :-)
Eliza wrote: "Bieke, I'll take you up on that offer. I'll drop you an email tomorrow :-)"Alright! :D Give me some more hope for the dystopian genre people!
But there was no review! Only stars! I WANT holes picked,even if by anons :p
Alana ~ The Book Pimp wrote: "Well... again, to be Devil's advocate... (sorry but it's so much fun!)There are reviewers out there (like me) that are bad at grammar... unless it's super obvious, I may not even notice issues th..."
No it certainly doesn't make your review worth any less. In this instance, I think it would be important for the author to get a bigger sample of reviews. After all, if the author isn't aware that there are grammar and punctuation issues, they won't be able to improve their own work.
So the author can perhaps learn some things from your review and then learn other things that you may not have covered from a different reviewer. It's kind of like getting a statue made. You have one person that does the sculpting and the other person who does the painting. Both are essential in the creation.
Did you say DYSTOPIAN? I am all ears.
Michelle wrote: "Did you say DYSTOPIAN? I am all ears."Would you say you're a dystopian fan too ? ;-)
Michelle wrote: "Did you say DYSTOPIAN? I am all ears."Yes, dystopian!
I lost all hope for the genre after some books I really didn't like (just like the angel books... Yikes) and none other then David Estes gave me a little bit of hope again with his book The Moon Dwellers. After that, I read another dystopian that I liked and then came Angelfall by Susan Ee, which got 4.5 stars out of me and I recently read The Selection and The Elite by Kiera Cass, those were 5 stars books and The Program by Suzanne Young, also a 5. So I'm starting to get the feeling that all isn't lost for dystopian. ^^
I vouch for Bieke. Awesome reader/reviewer!
Thought you might like to read a blog I wrote on reviewing books. It's title is The Negative Side to Positive Reviews, and it talks about how undeserved 5 star reviews are actually making Indie authors soft. http://www.rileybanks.net/3/post/2012...
When I first started reviewing books, I was inundated by requests from Indies to request their books. I said yes to everyone and soon found myself with a list of books to review that I really did not like.
Half of them were poorly crafted with weak plot lines and unlikable characters. A large portion of the other half had the basics of a good story but were littered with spelling and grammatical mistakes.
I started feeling like a high school English teacher correcting people's half-assed assignment, and it really made me start to HATE reviewing.
When I posted a review pointing out what I didn't like about one particular book, I got an irate email from the author demanding I take down the review because she only allowed positive reviews to be posted on her book.
Anyway, it was at that point that I wrote the above blog post. I'm sure many of you have had similar experiences.
Book reviewers have become the new gatekeepers to the literary world. We now do the job of agents and publishers in weeding out the gems from the overwhelming pile of garbage.
I think half the problem is reviewers trying to be too nice. We hand out 5 and 4 star reviews like they were free candy at Halloween. Now I find writers come to expect them, and think anything less than 4 stars is dissing their work.
Okay, off my soap box now. What are your thoughts, and how do you rate your reviews? Are you overly tough, or too nice?