The History Book Club discussion
This topic is about
Woodrow Wilson
PRESIDENTIAL SERIES
>
7. WOODROW WILSON: A BIOGRAPHY~ CHAPTER 12 AND CHAPTER 13 (237 - 284) ~ MAY 6th - MAY 12th, No Spoilers, Please
Chapter Overviews and SummariesChapter Twelve: Triumph and Tragedy
Relations with Mexico was deteriorating. Wilson was getting conflicting advice whether to intervene or not. Ambassador Lane was not trustworthy, so Wilson sent William Bayard Hale down to investigate. Hale discovered that Huerta was a drunk and he did not have firm control of the countryside against the Constitutionalists.
In July 1913, talks with Huerta and the U.s. failed, and Wilson lifted the arms ban for the Constitutionalists in February 1914. In April, American sailors were arrested and Wilson sent troops to Veracruz. Wilson accepted mediation, Huerta resigned and Carranza became president of Mexico. Two other instances in Dominican Republic and Haiti caused Wilson to send troops.
Wilson ducked the Prohibition issue, while Wilson received women suffragists to the White House, but he still said it was a state issue, and Wilson and the Secretary of Agriculture opposed direct loans to farmers.
At home, Jessie married Frank Sayre in November 1913, Nell fell in love with Treasure Secretary McAdoo and they get married in May 1914. Wilson never warmed up to McAdoo, though. By summer 1914, Ellen was dying of Bright's Disease. Wilson was at her bedside every night, and she died on August 6, 1914. Wilson was devastated.
Chapter Thirteen: Irony and the Gift of Fate
Americans were shocked by the start of World War One. Ellen's funeral was on August 10 and Wilson found it hard to concentrate on work. He proclaimed neutrality, but U.S. trade, at first, was hurt by the war. Things changed as Europe asked for war material. The British began a German blockade and the U.S. was upset as key items were on the contraband list. The British added cotton and Wilson was satisfied for the moment. In response to the blockade, Germany declared the waters around Britain to be a war zone, all ships were targets. Now Americans on ships were in danger. Wilson sent a vague note that the Germans should not attack all ships and there would be "strict accountability."
House and Wilson talked a lot about foreign policy, undermining Secretary of State Bryan. In January 1915, House went to Europe as Wilson began to think up principles to end the war.
Wilson met Edith Galt through family and they hit it off quickly. He asked her to marry him in May 1915, but she turned him down for the moment.
You really get a sense about the complexity of Mexico here. Do you think Wilson was served well by his advisers?
August 27, 1913 Address to Congress on Mexican Affairs, Part One: It is clearly my duty to lay before you, very fully and without reservation, the facts concerning our present relations with the Republic of Mexico. The deplorable posture of affairs in Mexico I need not describe, but I deem it my duty to speak very frankly of what this Government has done and should seek to do in fulfillment of its obligation to Mexico herself, as a friend and neighbor, and to American citizens whose lives and vital interests are daily affected by the distressing conditions which now obtain beyond our southern border.
Those conditions touch us very nearly. Not merely because they lie at our very doors. That of course makes us more vividly and more constantly conscious of them, and every instinct of neighborly interest and sympathy is aroused and quickened by them; but that is only one element in the determination of our duty. We are glad to call ourselves the friends of Mexico, and we shall, I hope, have many an occasion, in happier times as well as in these days of trouble and confusion, to show that our friendship is genuine and disinterested, capable of sacrifice and every generous manifestation. The peace, prosperity, and contentment of Mexico mean more, much more, to us than merely an enlarged field for our commerce and enterprise. They mean an enlargement of the field of self-government and the realization of the hopes and rights of a nation with whose best aspirations, so long suppressed and disappointed, we deeply sympathize. We shall yet prove to the Mexican people that we know how to serve them without first thinking how we shall serve ourselves.
But we are not the only friends of Mexico. The whole world desires her peace and progress; and the whole world is interested as never before. Mexico lies at last where all the world looks on. Central America is about to be touched by the great routes of the world's trade and intercourse running free from ocean to ocean at the Isthmus. The future has much in store for Mexico, as for all the States of Central America; but the best gifts can come to her only if she be ready and free to receive them and to enjoy them honorably. America in particularпїЅAmerica north and south and upon both continentsпїЅwaits upon the development of Mexico; and that development can be sound and lasting only if it be the product of a genuine freedom, a just and ordered government founded upon law. Only so can it be peaceful or fruitful of the benefits of peace. Mexico has a great and enviable future before her, if only she choose and attain the paths of honest constitutional government.
The present circumstances of the Republic, I deeply regret to say, do not seem to promise even the foundations of such a peace. We have waited many months, months full of peril and anxiety, for the conditions there to improve, and they have not improved. They have grown worse, rather. The territory in some sort controlled by the provisional authorities at Mexico City has grown smaller, not larger. The prospect of the pacification of the country, even by arms, has seemed to grow more and more remote; and its pacification by the authorities at the capital is evidently impossible by any other means than force. Difficulties more and more entangle those who claim to constitute the legitimate government of the Republic. They have not made good their claim in fact. Their successes in the field have proved only temporary. War and disorder, devastation and confusion, seem to threaten to become the settled fortune of the distracted country. As friends we could wait no longer for a solution which every week seemed further away. It was our duty at least to volunteer our good officesпїЅto offer to assist, if we might, in effecting some arrangement which would bring relief and peace and set up a universally acknowledged political authority there.
Accordingly, I took the liberty of sending the Hon. John Lind, formerly governor of Minnesota, as my personal spokesman and representative, to the City of Mexico, with the following instructions :
Press very earnestly upon the attention of those who are now exercising authority or wielding influence in Mexico the following considerations and advice:
The Government of the United States does not feel at liberty any longer to stand inactively by while it becomes daily more and more evident that no real progress is being made towards the establishment of a government at the City of Mexico which the country will obey and respect.
The Government of the United States does not stand in the same case with the other great Governments of the world in respect of what is happening or what is likely to happen in Mexico. We offer our good offices, not only because of our genuine desire to play the part of a friend, but also because we are expected by the powers of the world to act as Mexico's nearest friend.
We wish to act in these circumstances in the spirit of the most earnest and disinterested friendship. It is our purpose in whatever we do or propose in this perplexing and distressing situation not only to pay the most scrupulous regard to the sovereignty and independence of MexicoпїЅthat we take as a matter of course to which we are bound by every obligation of right and honorпїЅbut also to give every possible evidence that we act in the interest of Mexico alone, and not in the interest of any person or body of persons who may have personal or property claims in Mexico which they may feel that they have the right to press. We are seeking to counsel Mexico for her own good and in the interest of her own peace, and not for any other purpose whatever. The Government of the United States would deem itself discredited if it had any selfish or ulterior purpose in transactions where the peace, happiness, and prosperity of a whole people are involved. It is acting as its friendship for Mexico, not as any selfish interest, dictates.
The present situation in Mexico is incompatible with the fulfillment of international obligations on the part of Mexico, with the civilized development of Mexico herself, and with the maintenance of tolerable political and economic conditions in Central America. It is upon no common occasion, therefore, that the United States offers her counsel and assistance. All America cries out for a settlement.
A satisfactory settlement seems to us to be conditioned onпїЅ
( a ) An immediate cessation of fighting throughout Mexico, a definite armistice solemnly entered into and scrupulously observed;
( b ) Security given for an early and free election in which all will agree to take part;
( c ) The consent of Gen. Huerta to bind himself not to be a candidate for election as President of the Republic at this election; and
( d ) The agreement of all parties to abide by the results of the election and coпїЅperate in the most loyal way in organizing and supporting the new administration.
The Government of the United States will be glad to play any part in this settlement or in its carrying out which it can play honorably and consistently with international right. It pledges itself to recognize and in every way possible and proper to assist the administration chosen and set up in Mexico in the way and on the conditions suggested.
Taking all the existing conditions into consideration, the Government of the United States can conceive of no reasons sufficient to justify those who are now attempting to shape the policy or exercise the authority of Mexico in declining the offices of friendship thus offered. Can Mexico give the civilized world a satisfactory reason for rejecting our good offices? If Mexico can suggest any better way in which to show our friendship, serve the people of Mexico, and meet our international obligations, we are more than willing to consider the suggestion.
Mr. Lind executed his delicate and difficult mission with singular tact, firmness, and good judgment, and made clear to the authorities at the City of Mexico not only the purpose of his visit but also the spirit in which it had been undertaken. But the proposals he submitted were rejected, in a note the full text of which I take the liberty of laying before you.
I am led to believe that they were rejected partly because the authorities at Mexico City had been grossly misinformed and misled upon two points. They did not realize the spirit of the American people in this matter, their earnest friendliness and yet sober determination that some just solution be found for the Mexican difficulties; and they did not believe that the present administration spoke, through Mr. Lind, for the people of the United States. The effect of this unfortunate misunderstanding on their part is to leave them singularly isolated and without friends who can effectually aid them. So long as the misunderstanding continues we can only await the time of their awakening to a realization of the actual facts. We cannot thrust our good offices upon them. The situation must be given a little more time to work itself out in the new circumstances; and I believe that only a little while will be necessary. For the circumstances are new. The rejection of our friendship makes them new and will inevitably bring its own alterations in the whole aspect of affairs. The actual situation of the authorities at Mexico City will presently be revealed.
Meanwhile, what is it our duty to do? Clearly, everything that we do must be rooted in patience and done with calm and disinterested deliberation. Impatience on our part would be childish, and would be fraught with every risk of wrong and folly. We can afford to exercise the self-restraint of a really great nation which realizes its own strength and scorns to misuse it. It was our duty to offer our active assistance. It is now our duty to show what true neutrality will do to enable the people of Mexico to set their affairs in order again and wait for a further opportunity to offer our friendly counsels. The door is not closed against the resumption, either upon the initiative of Mexico or upon our own, of the effort to bring order out of the confusion by friendly coпїЅperative action, should fortunate occasion offer.
While we wait the contest of the rival forces will undoubtedly for a little while be sharper than ever, just because it will be plain that an end must be made of the existing situation, and that very promptly; and with the increased activity of the contending factions will come, it is to be feared, increased danger to the non-combatants in Mexico as well as to those actually in the field of battle. The position of outsiders is always particularly trying and full of hazard where there is civil strife and a whole country is upset. We should earnestly urge all Americans to leave Mexico at once, and should assist them to get away in every way possibleпїЅnot because we would mean to slacken in the least our efforts to safeguard their lives and their interests, but because it is imperative that they should take no unnecessary risks when it is physically possible for them to leave the country. We should let every one who assumes to exercise authority in any part of Mexico know in the most unequivocal way that we shall vigilantly watch the fortunes of those Americans who cannot get away, and shall hold those responsible for their sufferings and losses to a definite reckoning. That can be and will be made plain beyond the possibility of a misunderstanding.
(Source: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/ind...)
Address to Congress on Mexican Affairs, Part Two:For the rest, I deem it my duty to exercise the authority conferred upon me by the law of March 14, 1912, to see to it that neither side to the struggle now going on in Mexico receive any assistance from this side the border. I shall follow the best practice of nations in the matter of neutrality by forbidding the exportation of arms or munitions of war of any kind from the United States to any part of the Republic of MexicoпїЅa policy suggested by several interesting precedents and certainly dictated by many manifest considerations of practical expediency. We cannot in the circumstances be the partisans of either party to the contest that now distracts Mexico, or constitute ourselves the virtual umpire between them.
I am happy to say that several of the great Governments of the world have given this Government their generous moral support in urging upon the provisional authorities at the City of Mexico the acceptance of our proffered good offices in the spirit in which they were made. We have not acted in this matter under the ordinary principles of international obligation. All the world expects us in such circumstances to act as Mexico's nearest friend and intimate adviser. This is our immemorial relation towards her. There is nowhere any serious question that we have the moral right in the case or that we are acting in the interest of a fair settlement and of good government, not for the promotion of some selfish interest of our own. If further motive were necessary than our own good will towards a sister Republic and our own deep concern to see peace and order prevail in Central America, this consent of mankind to what we are attempting, this attitude of the great nations of the world towards what we may attempt in dealing with this distressed people at our doors, should make us feel the more solemnly bound to go to the utmost length of patience and forbearance in this painful and anxious business. The steady pressure of moral force will before many days break the barriers of pride and prejudice down, and we shall triumph as Mexico's friends sooner than we could triumph as her enemiesпїЅand how much more handsomely, with how much higher and finer satisfactions of conscience and of honor!
(Source: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/ind...)
Found the following editorial cartoon from the British news magazine "Punch" 
Image Source: http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2005...
Cartoon showing Woodrow Wilson wagging his finger at Mexico (armed bandit) saying: 'If you don't take care, I shall have to treat you the same way as Europe treats the Turk...I shall have to go on wagging my finger at you'.
Nice, Judy, a great cartoon. In a way, it seems true, but when Hale spoke to the Constitutionalists, the rebels did not want any intervention (meaning no interference in any way). For Wilson, he thought intervention is a full-scale invasion that would impose a government. Anything less would be ok. Oops, Carranza and the other rebels opposed the Veracruz operation.
It's easy to see why the Mexicans would find Wilson's address offensive. Wilson acts like Mexico is a troublesome little brother whose squabbles can only be mediated by its wiser, and totally disinterested, older brother.It is interesting that he mentions the near opening of the Panama Canal. That definitely carried weight in the American interventions into the affairs of Mexico and the Caribbean countries.
Put yourself in the place of the Mexicans. Would any of the following statements in Wilson's address to Congress reassure you?
"We offer our good offices, not only because of our genuine desire to play the part of a friend, but also because we are expected by the powers of the world to act as Mexico's nearest friend...
The Government of the United States would deem itself discredited if it had any selfish or ulterior purpose in transactions where the peace, happiness, and prosperity of a whole people are involved. It is acting as its friendship for Mexico, not as any selfish interest, dictates
Thanks, Ann. The Mexican War was only 70 years ago, just like WWII was to us. So, this adds fuel to the distrust.Great comment about the Canal. It did indeed push American interest in the region even further. Add the Monroe Doctrine, which Wilson used, and it is a recipe for a mess.
Cooper mentions that sending troops in to die in combat affected Wilson. But Cooper draws a line, it wasn't enough not to do it again...maybe think a little harder about it.
So, I had to mention Ambassador Lane, involved in the coup...no wonder Wilson bypassed him!
According to Tuchman . . . Germany was hoping to encourage enough issues with Mexico to keep the US occupied so they would become involved in a war at home and not be able to participate in the conflict in Europe.
by
Barbara W. Tuchman
So true, Tomerobber. I expect we will read more of this in a couple of weeks. Just gets messier.
On page 239 wilson sent William Hale to Mexico and on page 240 John Lind, both without any knowledge of Mexico or the language. Yet on page 255 Wilson quotes "You cannot serve your friend unless you know what his needs are, and you cannot know what his needs are unless you know him inside out."Once again foreign relations is not the play ground of friends, the reward to large donors or anything other than experts familiar with the history, language, state religion, literature and ethos of a country. Wilson needed to listen to is own words.
So true, Jim. It is about getting intelligence and inexperience friends won't make it happen.
Excellent point, Jim. You would think that the Foreign Service would have had someone who at minimum knew Spanish and the general situation in Mexico, but Wilson probably didn't want to involve Bryan.
Jim wrote: "On page 239 wilson sent William Hale to Mexico and on page 240 John Lind, both without any knowledge of Mexico or the language. Yet on page 255 Wilson quotes "You cannot serve your friend unless yo..."I had the same thoughts, Jim. Sending non-Spanish speaking people to gather intelligence seemed so short-sighted at the very least. I considered his "wait and see" attitude about intervening in the Huerta business a good sign of wanting better intelligence and being a prudent leader, but now I have to wonder.
This was the part of the problem, Ann and Judy, there was no foreign service.I think Mexico was another example of a need for a foreign service. I think picking an ambassador with relevant skills also began to gel into the 20th century.
Wikipedia:
The Rogers Act of 1924 merged the diplomatic and consular services of the government into the Foreign Service. An extremely difficult Foreign Service examination was also implemented to recruit the most outstanding Americans, along with a merit-based system of promotions.
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_S...)
Do you think if Bryan stayed on as secretary of state, maybe Wilson would not have sent troops into Haiti and Dominican Republic?I find it interesting that Bryan was helpful as a moderator of intervention tendencies...
Thanks for the information about the Foreign Service. I keep forgetting how much more limited the government was in Wilson's day!Cooper mentions twice that Bryan was against intervention in Mexico. See pages and 238 and 243. Bryan also negotiated with Colombia over the U.S. role in the creation of Panama.
However, Bryan advocated intervention in both Nicaragua and Haiti (pages 247,248). Chaos threatened in these countries and in the Dominican Republic. Justifying the Nicaraguan intervention, Bryan told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, "Those Latin republics are our political children, so to speak." From our vantage point, we can see how insulting these words were to the Caribbean countries, but that lack of cultural sensitivity was pretty much par for the times.
I think Wilson and Bryan both saw their policies as benevolent. Neither wanted the U.S. to gain any territory, but they did see a need for stability around the Canal. Cooper asserts this was the most important factor in the Caribbean interventions. (p 248)
Thanks, Ann, you get a "white man's burden" sense here...
Question.On page 251, Cooper writes about House's "project to bring Britain, German, and the United States together to maintain international peace and order" in early 1914.
Why do you suppose he left out France?
Hmmm....He did speak with French leaders on his 1914 trip. He even went to Paris. He might have been working on the Sir Edward Grey angle, though, so he might have been focusing on getting Britain, U.S., and Germany talking at first. It would be impossible to leave France out, though.
Bryan wrote: "Hmmm....He did speak with French leaders on his 1914 trip. He even went to Paris. He might have been working on the Sir Edward Grey angle, though, so he might have been focusing on getting Britai..."Maybe he saw France as embattled / occupied and nor more than a victim of the future actions of the above three?
What are your thoughts about Wilson seeing Birth of a Nation? I didn't know he got tricked into seeing it.
I think maybe he was tricked into seeing it, but he certainly could have disavowed it more publicly once he had seen it. Am I correct in understanding that he drafted a statement for Tumulty to send out under Tumulty's name (rather than the president's) saying that the President never expressed "approbation" of the movie. This was done only after NAACP protests when Tumulty told the president he needed to say he did not endorse the film. (pages 272-273)From what I have read, it seems to me that Wilson was almost completely tone deaf to discrimination and mistreatment of African Americans.
Either he felt they deserved it or he just didn't care.
message 27:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited May 09, 2013 09:37AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
I think in some ways he was a naive man and I think he got tricked.
Ann, I agree with you that it should have been higher on his priority list but it wasn't and the country was the same way aside from the more enlightened folks and the African Americans.
You do get the impression that Wilson saw the whole race issue as politics, not a civil rights or personal issue. It is easier to dismiss and do nothing. I thought it was interesting that he apparently didn't really concentrate on the movie, but did business. It is a long movie...
message 29:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited May 09, 2013 09:41AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
...and not giving something your full attention usually gets you into trouble.
Bentley,You said "I think we all expect that in years past folks felt exactly as we do now and the fact is - a lot of them didn't." I agree; we all need to be more aware of that.
I also hadn't thought about Wilson not wanting to stir up white sensibilities if he was seen as appeasing blacks. It was easier, as well as politically expedient, to stand aside.
He would probably see our repeated discussions here about his record on race relations as much ado about nothing. African Americans, on the other hand, would be appalled at his actions or lack thereof.
Mod
I agree Bryan.
message 33:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited May 09, 2013 10:33AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
You said "I think we all expect that in years past folks felt exactly as we do now and the fact is - a lot of them didn't." I agree; we all need to be more aware of that.
I also hadn't th..."
Yes, Ann exactly - I think that is how he saw it. Was it right - no.
But look how the politicians are all trying to appeal to the illegal immigrants - it boggles my mind. Yet they make legal immigration almost impossible for many. Not what the statue of liberty represents.
Politically expedient is what the politicians are all about these days and I guess things have not changed much since Wilson.
Not many presidents faced the difficult personal tragedy that Wilson faced when Ellen died.Do you sense how well he coped with her illness?
Edith Wilson usually gets a bad wrap in the history books for how she hid Wilson's stroke and inability to do his job. I was surprised that Cooper thought he was very lucky to have met Edith and that the country was lucky this happened as well.He was shattered by Ellen's death. I can't imagine a lonelier job than being president of the United Sates. I fail to see the attraction in Edith, but he was obviously smitten right away. By our standards, she was no beauty and she didn't have near Ellen's education or intelligence. On the other hand, she was willing to worship her husband. I imagine that must have been appealing. :)
It is such an important job and to have such tragedy but continue to work. Can't really take leave time. Lincoln, Pierce, and Coolidge had deaths while in office.
I went back and listened to Chap. 13 again last noc and I had missed the concept of "trickery" involved in getting Wilson to sit still long enough to watch BIRTH OF A NATION but Cooper mentioned that he left after it was over without commenting on it (as per info obtained 62 yrs. after the screening by someone else who had also attended the event) . . . it was only later that Tumulty advised him that he needed to make some kind of statement disavowing himself from looking as though he had endorsed the movie based on the book by Dixon . . . who knew Wilson from school and had played on that encounter to use the screening to his own advantage. I thought this was interesting background info that I was never aware of . . . I guess I shall have to go back and re-watch the YouTube version of the whole movie . . . I think I may have only see the edited version before.
Myself, I think that Wilson was going through a lot of personal issues during this time period and his naivety in politics shows through again in his handling of this issue.
Some thoughts on these chaptersCooper mentions Wilson's appointment of McReynolds on p. 273. He was discussed in more detail in
Melvin I. Urofsky. Urofsky goes further, pointing out that McReynolds was the only justice to be openly hostile to Brandeis because of his religion.On p. 274, I think we see the beginning of the split of the two parties into something like their current form of Republicans being conservative and Democrats liberal; until the late 1960s, the issue that made this less than absolute was race relations. But VoteView shows that even well before this, the split in the House was quite strong; e.g. the 60th House (1908) was almost perfectly split: http://polarizedamerica.com/HOUSE_SOR...
Another thing that got me wondering is how Japan went from being Britain's ally in WW I to Germany's ally in WWII.
message 39:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited May 11, 2013 10:57AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
But back to the Japanese:
Japan joined the allies in WW1 and drove the Germans out of the Pacific. They were a big help.
After WW1 Japan wanted to be recognized as an influential world power, and wanted to have more control in the Pacific.
They did not get this and like every other political situation it seemed to weaken the Japanese government. This allowed entities from within who were hardliners and Hawks to take control - which they did.
To make matters worse, Japan needed resources that they did not have, so they began to take them by expanding into Manchuria, Mongolia and China.
This put them on the collision course with the allies which of course set the stage for everything else.
And it is true that Japan had been allies with Britain since 1902 so they fought alongside them on the Allied side in 1914 which enabled the Far Eastern/Pacific sea routes to be guarded by the Japanese Navy (an ally at that time). This allowed the British ships to blockade Germany.
The blockade helped the allies win the war because it literally had cut off food and other supplies to the Germans ultimately contributing to their defeat.
Japan was on the Allied side thoughout all of World War I - but then the alliance was allowed to lie dormant in 1923 and there are many reasons given for that (one of them supposedly being pressure from the US).
So Japan was between a rock and a hard spot for its supplies, etc. and the US obviously had tensions with it and its leadership and Britain was bowing I guess to foreign pressure from the US and the rest is the unfortunate history of World War II.
And why I guess Japan went looking for new friends.
I also found it interesting that Wilson continued to have high ideals for settling conflicts between nations and defined those ideals in his 1915 4 point plan which later was incorporated into his concept of the League of Nations . . . he continues to believe that there is a set of standards that all nations would agree to and be able to resolve conflicts without resorting to war to achieve them. Unfortunately . . . for the most part, this is not necessarily the human response. Baser desires frequently are leading the way. Power and the desire for MORE than what you already have are the driving motivations, or a sense of entitlement for some perceived wrong . . . goodness and Christian beliefs are idealistic concepts that frequently are overpowered by that desire . . .
Bentley wrote: "Your author's link is not working - somehow the r in author was dropped in the html and that might be the problem.But back to the Japanese:
Japan joined the allies in WW1 and drove the Germans o..."
Thanks!
I have to agree with Bryan That Polk's Mexican War makes it hard to see us as principle friends to the Mexicans - and as today it seems that our goals are mostly self serving. and that history made mse 11 from Tomerobber logical. Why would not the Germans think that the Mexicans would or might ally against us?Regarding Birth of a Nation I get the impression that Wilson thought it was no big deal, an inconvenience that he was expected to see the racial implications. I say again this is a son of the south raised by an ex-northerner who chose to stay in the South thru and after the Civil War. Wilson also demonstrated an affinity for those values in "falling for" Edith - the daughter of the Randolph family of Virginia.
Peter wrote: "Some thoughts on these chaptersCooper mentions Wilson's appointment of McReynolds on p. 273. He was discussed in more detail in
[authorimage:Melvin I. Urofsky..."I bought this book as an audiobook and am looking forward to listening to it . . . that's my downfall when I participate in discussions . . . it leads me to even MORE books to read and explore . . ;-)
Mod
Mod
Vince, you have made some great points.
Bentley wrote: "Your author's link is not working - somehow the r in author was dropped in the html and that might be the problem.But back to the Japanese:
Japan joined the allies in WW1 and drove the Germans o..."
Thanks for explaining the Japan issues (and everything else), Bentley. I feel I understand that aspect a lot better.
Mod
Tomerobber wrote: "I went back and listened to Chap. 13 again last noc and I had missed the concept of "trickery" involved in getting Wilson to sit still long enough to watch BIRTH OF A NATION but Cooper mentioned th..."Thanks Tomerobber, he was going through a lot
Peter wrote: "Some thoughts on these chaptersCooper mentions Wilson's appointment of McReynolds on p. 273. He was discussed in more detail in
[authorimage:Melvin I. Urofsky..."Good points Peter, I also see more modern parties beginning to shape out. There is a bigger umbrella for many members to fit in but lines are forming
Bentley wrote: "Your author's link is not working - somehow the r in author was dropped in the html and that might be the problem.But back to the Japanese:
Japan joined the allies in WW1 and drove the Germans o..."
And Japan was only ten years out from winning a war against Russia
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Louis D. Brandeis (other topics)Louis D. Brandeis (other topics)
Louis D. Brandeis (other topics)
The Zimmermann Telegram (other topics)
Woodrow Wilson: A Biography (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Melvin I. Urofsky (other topics)Barbara W. Tuchman (other topics)
John Milton Cooper Jr. (other topics)
For the week of May 6, 2013 - May 12, 2013, we are reading Chapters Twelve and Thirteen of Woodrow Wilson: A Biography.
This week's reading assignment is:
WEEK SEVEN: May 6, 2013 - May 12, 2013 (p 237 - 284)
Chapter 12. Triumph and Tragedy and 13. Irony and the Gift of Fate
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bryan Craig will be moderating this discussion.
Welcome,
~Bryan
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS ARE EXTREMELY DENSE SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Glossary:
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Bibliography:
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
TOC and the Syllabus:
The following is a link to the table of contents for the book and the weekly syllabus:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Book as a Whole Thread:
This link for discussion of the book once you are finished:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...