Koontzland - Dean Koontz discussion
This topic is about
Innocence
Stand Alone Novels 2008-2020
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Innocence and Wilderness (Group Read - December 2013)
Am I the only one? --- I keep reading the beginning of Wilderness over and over again and am having problems with it. Too much in the woods... I should be way out of the woods by now but am not. I trust you all who have finished it that once I get out of the woods I will begin enjoying it.
Karen, what's holding you back? Why do you keep going back to the beginning? What is 'too much woods'? I think you could finish it in the time it took to explain it, though. It reads fast for me, about 15 min or so. I enjoyed it immensely. Then again, I did read Innocence first, and the memory alluded to that this short story fleshes out, was one of the things I was most curious about. I want Koontz to do more of these shorts. I'd love to see them with secondary characters too.^^
I understand. I just keep drifting off to sleep.
Can't wait for Innocence to come out. I want to talk about it!
I think knowing I have until next week to finish this and I am looking forward to Innocence, is what has me not rushing to finish it.
I just started Wilderness today at the (dreaded) dentists office. Didn't get too far but fell right into it! Can't wait to finish!
I think part of my holding back is that I have read about or started reading at least 4 books recently that had a child born with a deformity who was rejected by his parents because they couldn't stand the sight of him/her or because they believed the baby to be cursed ... that's not counting two that had babies born with "the caul" on it's face and someone thought that was a curse from the devil.
Just came back to see this, Karen. Keep going. No spoilers, no assumptions. Forget the past.
Oh, Karen, could you tell me what the other books were? I have a very special interest in books like that, and a couple deformed characters of my own, whom I love dearly. They are amazing to write.
Off the top of my head Kimberly I can't remember, but as soon as I do I will let you know. Sorry about that. They are kind of running together in my mind right now.
Almost finished with Innocence and I really like it. Haven't gotten to the part that my pal DC freaks out about though.
Mod
Maybe you will like the ending better than I did :-)
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I am still only halfway through Wildnerness. I've been so busy trying to edit my new book. But I am calling it quits for the night and intended to go finish Wildnerness now. Seems like a rather odd set up, but I'll comment again when I've finished.
Mod
I'm at 66% and loving it, so far... But here is what's bugging me. In "Wilderness," Addison kept referring to "my singular eye" as part of his deformity, but in "Innocence" he always mentions his eyes in the plural. What's up with that? Wondering if it will be explained.... 2:14 AM, even after taking prescription cough medicine. I better quit now or I will be up all night finishing it.
Susan, if it helps, Addison mentions in Wilderness "one of his singular eyes." In other words, his eyes are "singular", as in unique. In another part, he is looking through a small hole, which would of course only show one eye.
Wilderness was interesting and I have just started Innocence. So far it is not hard to put down if you know what I mean. Hopefully it will grab my attention and keep me awake until the wee hours. :-)
Thanks, Kimberly. Makes sense now! Since Wilderness I have been picturing him with one eye. Ha!
Selu, that was a great review and I agree with you. I haven't rated it and reviewed it yet because I can't quite figure out what I want to say.
Selu, that was a great review and I agree with you. I haven't rated it and reviewed it yet because I can't quite figure out what I want to say.
I hope we can keep this good discussion going! I like to go deep, if you haven't guessed by now XD. Mind you, the following is just my differing opinion. We all do come from wildly different places. I think it goes all the way down to basic assumptions, about the nature of innocence and the human condition. For example, regarding Selu's review, I consider Joe Hill's explanation of innocence to be inaccurate to the point of being opposite. Pulling wings off of flies because 'you don't know better' is not innocence, it is the human barbarity that is the result of the damage done to us by original sin. CS Lewis describes a similar sort of 'anti-innocence' in Perelandra. The 'Unman' is so evil, that he is no longer capable of recognizing that he is evil. Oddly, most evil people don't know they are evil. Neither do saints know that they are good. The words innocence, belief, perfection and purity, have often been redefined as elements of an unrealistic, naive and therefore unattractive ignorance, coupled with thoughtless cruelty (pulling off fly wings) and disregard for the needs of others (holier than thou attitude). Dean may not define any of those terms the same way a given reader does.
Innocence, in the sense in which I think Dean is using it, is precisely the state of 'knowing better' combined with the humility of knowing that that doesn't make you better than anyone else. You know who you are, at that moment, in relation to something or someone else; know that you still have a lot to learn; you can discern what is the just and right response; and have the conviction and strength to act in alignment with that. It means you seek perfection, without worrying about or even thinking about it much.
Talking about seeking, I don't see the Utopia that Selu mentions in any of Koontz's books. In fact, I've as often seen him criticized for making a world where humans have always been evil and corrupt, compared to all animals, esp dogs. Just personally, I am old enough to remember those times and places where people did go to church more, were safer in the street, and even left their houses unlocked for the day when they left for work, and Dean is older than me. There is nothing wrong with remembering better times, and seeking their return.
His writing style is different here, but maybe it's just a matter of taste? It was as transparent and refreshing to me as a cold glass of water on a hot day. I'm used to fairy-tale-like styles and it was meaningful to me. Admittedly, first-person narration is hard to pull off, because the narrator/character IS telling you, even while showing you, and you only know as much about anyone/anything, as the character himself knows. "Innocence" reads like a memoir. The style, and the lack of messiness, suits Addison's personality.
Everyone's thoughts? Not just that you did or didn't like it, disagree with me or not, but why. I know Dusty and I don't see eye to eye about religion, for example, and that's never bothered me. ^_)) I've been an Episcopalian, a Pentecostal, an Atheist, a Buddhist, a Taoist, and am now a Catholic with a love for Eastern Orthodoxy and Sufi poetry. So I love people no matter where they are.
Innocence is fiction but reality based. Under NYC no one knows how many tunnels there are or how deep they go. An entire society exists in those tunnels. A sociology study "Mole People" is about this underground society. I am really enjoining Innocence. I did just read Wildereness and was left with too many questions.
Koontz does make amazing characters, and I'm really glad he doesn't just keep rewriting the same characters over and over, but that each one is a fully living breathing being different from all the others, good and bad alike. Addison is who he is; but until more people get to the end, I can't breathe a word as to why, or why he had to be that way.This is a story that, unlike all the others, came to Koontz all at once in a dream. I'm glad he didn't try loading it up with anything else, but left it the 'fable of the heart' that it was. Several quotes from it will haunt me for the rest of my life. The book gave me a story to treasure, and I'm grateful. Hurry up and finish everybody, so that we can talk about why! You really can't have any spoilers on your first read-through.
I loved CBS's "Beauty and the Beast"! I ran the Helpers Network, a fan organization in liaison with the B&B production company, and put out the Literary Compendium of all the quotes from the show. I could've happily lived down there with Father, Vincent, Pascal and the rest. That was the kind of life I dreamed of. I'm really a hermit at heart, and it was fun to be a real-life 'helper' as they called their aboveground friends.
Selu wrote: "Diane, the use of the NYC tunnels was excellent and I wish Koontz had delved into Addison's home. Now that I think about it Addison's character, especially with his use of "Father" and penchant for..."I will wait to the end of course. I think he intentionally leaves things to the imagination this time with the peripheral characters. I am new to this so do we openly discuss it on the 10th or 11th of Jan.
I'm thinking that end of book/spoiler discussions should go private, just so we don't spoil it for people who come by Koontzland out of curiosity like I did. I don't want to ruin it for anyone, even if they come by after the rest of us are done.^^
Kimberly wrote: "I'm thinking that end of book/spoiler discussions should go private, just so we don't spoil it for people who come by Koontzland out of curiosity like I did. I don't want to ruin it for anyone, eve..."I agree Kimberly. I am talking about Wilderness and unanswered questions about some of the characters and possible hidden agenda.
I think we can probably talk openly about anything up to about the last 30 or so pages of the book. Does that sound reasonable? I don't have a lot of experience with Goodreads book-reading groups yet, so I have no idea how serious spoilers are generally handled long term.
You can always use "spoiler" and let people know what part of the book you are at so they will know whether to read the spoiler or not.
Oh yes, hiding spoilers under a tag. How is that done here on Goodreads? I am a total newbie at any kind of coding XD
Perfect, Ty! Can't wait to see a few spoilers pop up then, as ppl finish. Me too, as soon as I can get out from under Christmas prep!
Mod
Good :-) You are a nice person
I thought Innocence was beautiful & magical.
I hope I'll get around to downloading Wilderness and reading it on Sunday. I will be offline for a week between Christmas and New Years Day.
Mod
You are correct :-) Please use spoiler alerts if you are questioning whether something would ruin the story for someone who has not completed the book.
Thank You for the directions on how to create a spoiler alert.
Instructions for other nifty tools can be found by clicking (some html is ok). This link is located directly to the right of "add book/author" upper right corner above the comment box.
Dustin, I respectfully disagree with you about the value of religion in Koonz's book, but I know we all have different tolerance levels for this religion and morality in books. I know I've read books that I found boring because the moral overtones were so heavy. I only bring this up because I'm curious what you found overtly religious in deeply odd. I obviously saw it in Innocence and The Taken, but I seem to have missed the reference in Deeply Odd.
Mod
Deeply Odd gave me the feeling that if a person wasn't religious then they were clearly satanic. I am not the only one who felt this way with Deeply Odd. You may read my review of Deeply Odd here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I appreciate the themes of spirituality in Dean Koontz's books. I believe in other dimensions and connections that are not readily seen.
Rosella wrote: "I just finished reading Innocence last night. [spoilers removed]"Its amazing how people view the same thing so differently. (view spoiler) I love this book.
Tracy wrote: "Rosella wrote: "I just finished reading Innocence last night. [spoilers removed]"Its amazing how people view the same thing so differently. [spoilers removed] I love this book."
(view spoiler)
Selu wrote: "Tracy wrote: "Rosella wrote: "I just finished reading Innocence last night. [spoilers removed]"For the end: [spoilers removed]"
(view spoiler)
Just finished Innocence, and yeah, I have to agree with Dustin, I think it derailed towards the end. Maybe I'll sleep over it and then return with more of a formulated argument.
Finished innocence a few days ago. Enjoyed the book didn't go the way I thaught it would but was surprised at where it led, left me with a smile. Very interesting.
Mod
:-) I like the way you think! MERRY CHRISTMAS and Hallelujah!
I finished Innocence today and I really, really liked it!! Love Addison Goodheart!
Received Innocence as a Christmas present and started it today. I love the cover. It has to be one of DK's best covers.
Dustin Crazy little brown owl wrote: "Steven wrote: "Just finished Innocence, and yeah, I have to agree with Dustin, I think it derailed towards the end. ":-) I like the way you think! MERRY CHRISTMAS and Hallelujah!"
I have to second this notion. I was loving the 'poetic' nature of the book if you kind of get what I mean. Toward the end I didn't feel like I was reading Koontz...it was like reading any other 'paranormal' type novels.
On a side note, I'm now reading Doctor Sleep (I know, I know. Dark side has taken over me). Awesome book so far, but I hear from others it is exactly the same, it derails toward the end and loses focus.
Finished Innocence and I have to agree with Dustin about the ending. The hints throughout the book about the ending were too subtle. If there was a stronger presence of these hints, I think this book would have been so much better.That being said, I do believe this is one his best written books. It was beautiful to read and DK made the mood and atmosphere of the book palpable.
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Thank You!
Mod
I completely get what you mean :-) Thank You!
Koontzland - Dean Koontz
Books mentioned in this topic
Wilderness (other topics)Innocence (other topics)
The Ask and the Answer (other topics)
Wilderness (other topics)
Your Heart Belongs to Me (other topics)
More...
Awesome book. Been a while since I read it but I still remember many things about it (the sparrows are flying again). You should check it out. I am afraid to actually try and give you a description of what it is about because I am more than likely going to end up posting a spoiler