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Memories of Ice
Group Read - Memories of Ice
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MOI - Chapter Twenty-Three - NO SPOILERS
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And here, in this basin, carrying oddly-coloured silts in racing streams, it flowed uphill.
From dust. . . to mud. So you march with us after all. No, understand, I am pleased.
We also learn a little more about the Tiste Edur as the Bridgeburners stumble across a body that was killed by being thrown out of a warren, directly into the depths of an ocean and now washed up.
We learn that they are the native to the Elder Shadow Warren Kurald Emurlahn just as the Tirste Andii are native to Dark.
‘Tiste Edur?’
‘Children of the Shattered Warren. A fragment had been discovered, in the vast forest of Moranth that would become our new homeland. Kurald Emurlahn, the true face of Shadow.
This tells us that Shadow is a shattered warren with pieces strewn about. Raraku is the site of a shattered warren and earlier in the book Trake remembers how the First Empire Shattered a warren in Seven Cities
Gods, we tore a warren to pieces on that distant continent.
And later when he talks to Kilava
‘I have crossed your wake before, Treach, yet would not approach – recalling your rage when we destroyed your empire, so long ago.’
It has long cooled, Imass. You did only what was necessary. You mended the wounds—
‘The Imass cannot take credit for that. Others were involved in the task of repairing the shattered warren. We did nothing but slay your kind
So a fragment of that warren ended up in what is now the Moranth homeland.
We saw another fragment when we first encounter the Silanda which was a Tiste Edur ship. And when Heboric and crew exit the warren they ended up in Raraku.
And so what does Shadowthrone rule over – Another fragment?
‘ Meanas – where Shadowthrone and Cotillion and the Hounds dwell—’
‘Is naught but a gateway,’ the Moranth officer finished.
Paran grunted. ‘If a shadow could cast a shadow, that shadow would be Meanas – is that what you two are saying? Shadowthrone rules the guardhouse?’
Quick Ben grinned. ‘What a delicious image, Captain.
And I liked this little tidbit
The Hounds of Shadow – they are the guardians of the gate...
...But the warren is also shattered. Meaning, that gate might not lead anywhere. Or maybe it belongs to the largest fragment. Does Shadowthrone know the truth? That his mighty Throne of Shadows is ... is what? A castellan’s chair? A gatekeeper’s perch?
So it appears thjere is a “true” Throne of Shadow – and the Tiste Edur are coming for it. Another war again – or perhaps the same war...
They’re returning to the mortal world – perhaps they’ve re-awakened the true Throne of Shadow, and maybe they’re about to pay their new gatekeeper a visit.’
And Paran does his Master of the Deck astral travel deal and pays the true throne a visit
The Throne of Shadow. Not in some hidden, long-forgotten realm. It’s here, on – or rather in – my world ... A small, tattered fragment of Kurald Galain.
. . . and the Tiste Edur have come to find it. They’re searching, crossing the seas, seeking this place. How do I know this?
The True Throne of Shadow exists in the mortal world – It is guarded by the Tiste Andii who have a vested interest in seeing that their lost kin and mortal enemies don’t get hold of it. But the Tiste Andii guards have abandoned the throne in an attempt to lead the Edur away from it – So this is all underway at the moment!
Spawn of Anomander Rake – gone! Leaving a blood trail, leading the Edur away with the spilling out of their own lives – oh, where is Anomander Rake? They call for him, they call and call! They beg for his help!
It seems everybody’s looking for Rake who has dropped right off the radar – even to The Master of the Deck
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It appears that yes, Draconus does want Paran to shatter the sword – but in the mean time the sword needs to feed – So here’s the deal with the sword as I understand from this conversation
The sword contains the Gate of Darkness – The Tiste Andii warren of Kurald Galain – The Gate moves in a cyclic migration with Chaos following it close behind – Draconus perceived that there was a threat that Chaos would overtake the Gate and destroy Kurald Galain and possibly everything else in existence and so he interrupted the Gates natural migration by trapping it within the sword on a giant cart and then consigning slain souls to endlessly pull the Gate away from Chaos and forever keep ahead. What Draconus came to realise, too late, is that the what he perceived as threat was merely a natural cyclic process – Chaos would attempt to overtake the Gate of Darkness,(possibly this would result in increased upheaval in the world) and then the Gate would resist the effort and pull away of its own accord and rinse and repeat. In other words his sword was unnecessary.
So he basically switched the migration cycle from auto to manual. The problem is, that Rake hasn’t been killing enough people – and those already in the sword are expiring and as they do they are thrown on top of the cart with the gate making it heavier and thus requiring replacement souls. In particular very powerful souls like ascendants are desirable as they have the most “pull” so to speak. Rake has not been forthcoming and so now Chaos is catching up.
Draconus wants the sword shattered so the gate can return to its natural cycle and resist chaos on its own. The problem is, Chaos is now so close that they may not have enough time to work out how to shatter the sword.
Confused?
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I need to speak with Rake.’
‘Aye,’ the ancient warrior rumbled, ‘you do. Explain to him this truth, mortal. He is too merciful, too merciful to wield Dragnipur. The situation is growing desperate.’
‘What are you talking about?’
‘Dragnipur needs to feed.
Part of Draconus’ misconception was that he thought that Darkness was the sole manifestation of order
Mortal, I have had time to think. To recognize the grave error I have made. I had believed, Ganoes Paran, in those early times, that only in Darkness could the power that is order be manifested.
.
But order is also manifested in other forms
‘Just as Chaos possesses the capacity to act in its own defence, to indeed alter its own nature to its own advantage in its eternal war, so too can Order. It is not solely bound to Darkness. It understands, if you will, the value of balance.’
Paran felt an intuitive flash. ‘The Houses of the Azath. The Deck of Dragons.’
The hooded head shifted slightly and Paran felt cold, unhuman eyes fixing upon him. ‘Aye, Ganoes Paran.’
‘The Houses take souls ...’
‘And bind them in place. Beyond the grasp of Chaos.’
But the way things are at the moment there is an imbalance that threatens to bring an end to Order
‘So it shouldn’t matter, then, if Darkness succumbs.’
‘Don’t be a fool. Losses and gains accumulate, shift the tide, but not always in ways that redress the balance. We are in an imbalance, Ganoes Paran, that approaches a threshold.
In other words, losing Darkness would create an imbalance that Order could not sustain.
Thats my take so far anyway.
The Malazan Empire's image is certainly improving. Back in chapter 18 we had Anomander Rake, of all people, singing its praises: Peace, reparation, law, order. Now Whiskeyjack is trying to sell it to Humbrall Taur, and apparently succeeding. In GotM it sounded much more negative. Adjunct Lorn, for example, who was the character most given to reflection, and someone who ought to know considering her job, thought of it as just the most recent stage in a history of oppression and violence going all the way back to the T'lan Imass. But now it seems we're being told that no, this empire is special, it's not like the others. In my opinion, the discrepancy between the two points of view needs some more explaining.
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'Just as Chaos possesses the capacity to act in its own defence, to indeed alter its own nature to its own advantage in its eternal war, so too can Order. It is not solely bound to Darkness. It understands, if you will, the value of balance.'
Paran felt an intuitive flash. 'The Houses of the Azath. The Deck of Dragons.'
So this leads me back to the deal that My hero Pust had with the Azath and suppling Icarium. I wonder what significance (if any) Icariums sole would have on the balance of things.
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Well Icarium was a lodestone of power - unpredictable and destructive at times - so taking him out would overall increase predictability and order in the universe or rather would DECREASE chaos and unpredictability
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Wow you guys. This is like a treatise, all the ideas solidified in wonderful explanation! And then too, TCG is also involved, causing chaos.
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We are obviously over obsessed with Malazan - but I like your take on it better.
Lee wrote: "I knew I would enjoy the re-read and as soon as I met David and we had coffee and talked nothing but Malazan, I knew that I'd now LOVE the re-read and the side discussions that it would entail."
Oh yeah, the reread is amazing. So much clicking into place now. I suspect next time we have coffee there will be even more Malazan to discuss. I do enjoy everyone's participation - it gets the mental juices flowing and thinking down tracks you didn't see before.
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At the end of the chapter, he claims to concede he was wrong and wants to go ahead and "help" the Malazans.
Yeah right.
I'll be curious to see what's happened to Rake and the Moon Spawn.
Korolat has come to believe that Rake has been keeping the Tiste Andii occupied all these years so they don't have time to despair.
She regrets pondering things and coming to this conclusion, but resolves that she shall carry on in his stead as second in command.
Oh and we're denied another mage fight as the Malazan's get the jump on the first enemy mage we see by drowning him with water magically teleported into his lungs and mouth.
On the Edur, Paran gets a warning for Rake that only makes sense if you have read the whole series: "Poisoned souls, led by the one who has been slain a hundred times, oh 'ware this new Emperor of the Edur, this Tyrant of Pain, this Deliverer of Midnight Tides." OK, so Midnight Tides is the name of the book after next, so that's sort of a signal that this info is important, and important to the Tistii Andii and Rake in particular. But, first time through, this was the kind of passage that just left me feeling overwhelmed. And now. I'm kind of gobsmacked that its here. (And let me know if this should be a spoiler. I'd rather not, because I want to re-assure some people who read this for the first time and think that they must have missed something earlier. They haven't. This is just Erikson's way of making these books incredibly dense.)
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I also noted the Midnight Tides title, said 'aha', and didn't expect a lot more - other than I'm now even more worried about the tiste edur and where is Rake??? Really hope he's okay. He has to be, he's important to the story...right? And who is this 'Emperor of the Edur' ? Doesn't sound very..nice.I am really coming to love Kruppe!! He makes me laugh out loud. This latest with Hetan and how she was going to bring him to heel, and now she just may be in the Kruppe family way with the 'Man of Lard'? Hahahaa...
Kruppe always wins :)
Also wondering about his mule, and why it seems to be more sentient than a normal mule.
The Mott Irregulars seem to be a force to be reckoned with, in their own odd way. 23 brothers from one family, taking down a necromancer? Oh myyy. And leading the Malazans around by the nose for 1-1/2 years in the forest. Mind you, they think they are unnoticed by WJ, but he knows all about them and their spies. Can't wait to see what they get up to in this series...although running off with stolen dung doesn't seem a very impressive feat.
Erikson has already killed off (and brought back) characters who are important to the story. One thing that I love about him is that, unlike anyone else, I have the sense in his books that no-one is really safe.
True - but this is Rake. And if he is really gone, who has his sword? I don't think he's really gone. I hope. Also just want to say GROSS about the Toe-vest.
One thing that I love about him is that, unlike anyone else, I have the sense in his books that no-one is really safe. The same is true about game of thrones books.I have read all AGOT books twice but I am liking Malazan more :D.
Anyone remember this exchange from the memoirs of Outrider Hurlochel that appeared as an epithet in GotM:"I have walked this land when the T'lan Imass were but children. I have commanded armies a hundred thousand strong. I have spread the fire of my wrath across continents, and sat alone upon tall thrones. Do you grasp the meaning of this?"
"Yes. You never learn, Kallor."
It is poignant that I found this so funny when appearing as an excerpt in GotM but now this exchange immediately precedes Kallor getting released to chase after WJ which is followed by this:
A few miserable Great Ravens, huddled beneath a wagon, were the only witnesses to his sudden smile.
(view spoiler)
A few things I noticed that weren't covered any may be inconsequential:1) Draginpur needs souls to stave off the pursuing Chaos. Itkovian so happens to be carrying thousands of souls right now because his god is gone and he can't get rid of them (my understanding). Hmmmm.
2) Straw (the Mott Irregular) says he found a table with no legs. Is this the Deck table of Fid and Hedge's?
3) Clarification: is the entire Kurald Galain warren in Draginpur?
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1. Yes, Dragnipur needs souls to stave off chaos. Re Itkovian, you have the essence of his problem - with no god to take the souls he embraces he himself is forced to carry those souls and so he is a mortal carrying a burden meant for a god - it's not so healthy for him I think. And yeah, if dragnipur could take those souls somehow it would be a win win. Except maybe not so much for the souls involved.
2. The table is the same cheat table that Fid and Hedge used yes.
3. Only the gate to Kurald Galain is inside Dragnipur. I don't think you could say Kurald Galain is contained within Dragnipur - but the only way into the realm of Kurald Galain is through Dragnipur. The Tiste can still access Galain magic and in a sense they carry a piece of Kurald Galain with them - but they are exiles cut off from the world or realm of Galain proper.
You are picking this stuff up a lot better than I did on my first read
1) I wonder if Itkovian will have a choice in the matter. I can't see him condemning the souls to the fate inside Draginpur but if it starts killing him, he may have to send them there. If we find Rake and the sword that is. 2) Yes! I'm proud of myself that I picked up on that.
3) I see. I was making the mistake of thinking of the warren as a building and the gate being attached instead of the gate being a portal.
I've been taking notes in the longer chapters or when I come across something interesting and you guys help a ton!
Mod
maybe like a stargate - but with only one set of co-ordinates to a parallel or transdimensional universe maybe.
I never watched Stargate. Maybe like a mass relay from Mass Effect. I think that works for me, haha.
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Never. Man I love that movie and a lot of the series. And the spin offs.
Nah. I'm pretty sure it's all on Netflix but I'm just getting into TNG and enjoying it quite a bit.
So rakes sword hold the gate of darkness?And the gate of chaos?
When paran entered dragnipur and freed the hounds rake killed. Did they go through the chaos gate?
I'm lost on that bit.
I maybe being a bit blonde here too
But the waren that is dragnipur is it part of the dark waren or is it just a void in between the two gates??
And do we know where the throne of darkness is? Have we had clues to work this out.
I wish I'd had read this years ago, when I was younger, back when my brain worked faster and managed to retain info for more than an hour.
Mod
And the gate of chaos?"
Rakes Sword holds the gate of darkness and is pursued by chaos - there is no gate of chaos.
Deano wrote: "When paran entered dragnipur and freed the hounds rake killed. Did they go through the chaos gate?
They went through the Gate of Darkness.
Deano wrote: "But the waren that is dragnipur is it part of the dark waren or is it just a void in between the two gates??
Dragnipur is it's own warren, created by Draconus specifically to protect the Gate of Darkness from being caught by Chaos. It also needs souls to drag the Gate away from Chaos.
Deano wrote: "And do we know where the throne of darkness is? Have we had clues to work this out."
The Tiste Andii came from another world/parallel universe. At this point my assumption was that the Throne of Darkness was left behind in that world.
Ok thanks for thatDoes the warren of chaos not have a gate then?
As it's more like the paths of say hood that are accessible but all and inter weave the other warrens
So the hounds that entered the dark warren
Have escaped hoods clutches and their souls are now in the tiste andii warren?
Sorry i see you put there is no gate to chaos Do only some of the warrens have gates?
The chaos warren, I read was the source of the warrens, which is odd as the warrens are the elder gods vains!!!
It's these bits I find so confusing.
It's obvious that the magic system is very cleverly, but it's so hard to get your head around
Mod
Chaos is the place outside the warrens - I think of the warrens as "Order" while Chaos is like maximum entropy - except that's not quite right because it seems Chaos has usable energy - but it's completely raw power.
Anyway - in book one Quick Ben was able to access Shadow Warren via a back door from Chaos - I also believe that there were other backdoors into other warrens from there as well. This idea isn't really pursued through the rest of the series though - except the idea that Chaos is the place outside or between warrens.
Yes I remember that and presumed that chaos interwove the others. But corrupts the more you use it, like hairlock (although he was always a bit twisted)
I've not finished this chapter yet so I've not read all the posts on here. Sorry if this has been discussed already but: Can anyone explain why the Malazan's are in such a rush to Coral? I seem to remember something about them not trusting their allies to take out the Seer on their own but.... there has to be more to it than that right? I mean WJ and Dujek, 2 of the world's greatest military minds, have committed to an incredibly high-risk, bordering on reckless, course of action by leaving so many of their forces behind. They've pretty much completely abandoned a massive force of Barghast warriors and have relegated the entire allied army to being backup/reserve/'the cavalry' and plan to spring a deadly trap on their own. That would be ridiculous if their only motivation was wanting to get the first crack at the Seer.
Mod
Cool. That makes a lot of sense from the Malazan Empire's perspective, although putting their army at massive risk and betraying their allies as part of a power play seems really out of character for Dujek and Whiskeyjack (especially WJ given how deeply he is affected when he loses people).
The old “thrash and oof”.Enough said.
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