Crime, Mysteries & Thrillers discussion
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Most annoying MCT cliches
I've never heard of "shaking up Washington" before.
John wrote: "J. wrote: "I've seen this again and again: The bad guy is armed. He slips and falls, and DROPS the gun, a too-convenient way for the author to disarm them. But when someone falls, by reflex, they c..."Writers Digest, about twenty years ago had an excellent article about using coincidence to get someone into trouble.
"Truth be told" or any filler phrase like that"I literally . . . " even when used correctly, it fails to intensify things, just gets in the way.
"his jaw dropped." No, not only does this happen only in fiction, but it's a weird verb to describe opening your mouth.
The bad guy who takes time to confess everything while he's got the gun on the detective rather than just shooting.
Amanda wrote: "Writers Digest, about twenty years ago had an excellent article about using coincidence to get someone into trouble. ..."My understanding is that it's okay in the first chapter or two to use coincidence to get the protagonist in trouble. Later, no. And never, ever use coincidence to get the hero out of trouble.
'Chin up...''up by the bootstraps... '
Anything said to a person to reassure he or she, when he or she would really like to toss the lot of them out.
Amanda wrote: ""his jaw dropped." No, not only does this happen only in fiction, but it's a weird verb to describe opening your mouth. e..."I don't know about that. It happens to me all the time in real life. I say something to a young woman and her jaw drops. Usually I get slapped shortly thereafter, but still -- It happens.
:)
Peace, Seeley
While we're at it, and not just in fiction, but in TV reporting:Let's retire "A Parent's Worst Nightmare". It's been so overused and for mundane situations it has completely lost all meaning.
John wrote: "While we're at it, and not just in fiction, but in TV reporting:Let's retire "A Parent's Worst Nightmare". It's been so overused and for mundane situations it has completely lost all meaning."
Normally, I'd agree with you - except that I saw a pre-release version of Prisoners last week (sorry, signed an NDA and can't talk or they'll take my first born) and, while I don't believe they used that phrase, the movie IS THAT PHRASE. Wow, what a dark, story that raises moral questions you just can't answer.
But, everywhere else I agree with you!
Melissa wrote: "(nondisclosed stuff)." I probably wasn't clear, I meant in mundane situations where it is obviously over top: like: "her daughter spilled mustard on her shirt: it was a parent's worst nightmare!"
"he stalked to the other side of the desk" ?? What does that mean?
I always imagine stalking in that sense to mean taking longish strides, shoulders hunched a little. But realistically it's only effective if you cover a fair distance. Three feet - or thereabouts - doesn't give much time for emphatic pacing.
maybe he cyberstalked her, and that was the length of the ethernet cable
Mel wrote: "I always imagine stalking in that sense to mean taking longish strides, shoulders hunched a little. But realistically it's only effective if you cover a fair distance. Three feet - or thereabouts -..."Yes, it's somewhat like goose-stepping. You need a parade ground or open space in order to do stalking well. Looks a little odd just going around a desk. Unless it's in the Ministry of Silly Walks, in which case, it's hilarious.
Katherine wrote: ""he stalked to the other side of the desk" ?? What does that mean?"I think it means he moved like a corn plant, but all ears.
Dave wrote: "Katherine wrote: ""he stalked to the other side of the desk" ?? What does that mean?"I think it means he moved like a corn plant, but all ears."
LOL, groaned first but then LOL :)
Peace, Seeley
J. wrote: "Mel wrote: "I always imagine stalking in that sense to mean taking longish strides, shoulders hunched a little. But realistically it's only effective if you cover a fair distance. Three feet - or t..."Ah, the ministry of fond memories as well. A form of comedy to oft forgotten these days -- http://youtu.be/IqhlQfXUk7w
Peace, Seeley
Sadly, the Iraq or Afghanistan war vet suffering PTSD is becoming a cliche.That, in my opinion, diminishes the physical and emotional trauma the brave men and women who served in either place suffered.
I completely agree with you, Quillracer.
Mel wrote: "I always imagine stalking in that sense to mean taking longish strides, shoulders hunched a little. But realistically it's only effective if you cover a fair distance. Three feet - or thereabouts -..."However, when a hunter stalks a deer, they tend to tread carefully in order not to spook the animal before it comes within range...
Janet wrote: "Last season of Sherlock was just 3 episodes, though each episode was the length of two - much too short, I agree, Jamie. Also the 2nd and the 3rd episodes tended towards the fantastic and unbeliev..."I've got to catch up with the series - I've only watched the first season (and loved it)!
Janet wrote: "The first season is superb, much better than season 3 in my opinion, Heather. I am missed season 2 and am due to rent it soon from Lovefilm."I'm planning on watching the first season over again before I go on to the second....And all the seasons are too short :)
Women detectives who feel like they have to prove themselves to the others
Janet, I could go on for pages with first-hand examples of guys taking credit for women's work. I will spare all of us by simply saying I hear you.
Janet wrote: "Thanks, Portia. There are some great guys to work with, bust some are just terrible.I wonder how we all feel about female and male detectives. Do we prefer one to the other? What do we like ab..."
Interesting question. I think I will make it one of the polls next month.
Thanks Janet
How about the team member turned bad guy? It seems like I've come across this one in almost every MRT series - written and televised. There are basically two options for this overused plot device:A) Nerdy lab tech/crime scene tech/etc. - let's call him Jimmy. Jimmy is a minor character in several books. He is good at his job and often provides key evidence. He's either quiet and professional or boisterous and slightly annoying. Either way, under Jimmy's seemingly normal exterior lies a big old ball of crazy. Eventually he snaps and falls under the spell of a supernaturally intelligent serial killer. Or his resentment at perceived slights/sinful behavior/etc by the protagonist reaches critical mass. Said protagonist must die.
B) The office worker with access to sensitive information. Call him Tony. Tony either has a loved one being threatened/held hostage by a criminal mastermind who uses him to destroy or tamper with evidence. Of course the criminal somehow knows everything that goes on at HQ so Tony can't tell anyone. Or Tony has a dark secret and is threatened with exposure. The first blackmail scenario never makes sense to me. The mastermind is d*mn near omniscient, so why can't he figure out how to do the tampering himself and cut out the middleman?
Along the same lines, Jennifer, the criminal mastermind always outthinks and outfoxes the police or hero for 3/4s of the book until he makes that one teeny little mistake that trips him up. If he's that damn smart, how did he not know he made that goof?The bad guy, too, always has unlimited time, money, and resources to pursue his plans along with an army of henchmen/mercenaries/disciples willing and anxious to do his evil bidding.
Quillracer wrote: "...The bad guy, too, always has unlimited time, money, and resources to pursue his plans along with an army of henchmen/mercenaries/disciples willing and anxious to do his evil bidding. ..."Minions, Quill. They're called minions. LOL.
Janet wrote: "I wonder how we all feel about female and male detectives. Do we prefer one to the other? What do we like about each?"You mean VI Warshawski vs. Sam Spade, or do you mean police detectives working in teams?
J. wrote: "Quillracer wrote: "...The bad guy, too, always has unlimited time, money, and resources to pursue his plans along with an army of henchmen/mercenaries/disciples willing and anxious to do his evil b..."Minions were those cute little helpers in the Despicable Me movies.
Seeley wrote: "John wrote: "hauntingly beautiful.policed his brass (if used more than once)
gumshoe (in any novel newer than 1945)
the smell of copper (when referring to blood at a crime scene. If its a detec..."
Ask people in med fields and lots will tell you that fresh, uncontaminated blood does smell like warm pennies. I was a nurse for 10 years and that's what it smells like to me. However, most diseases, infections, and chemical overdoses (including alcohol) will alter the smell of blood. My sense of smell is really acute; I could look at any nasty wound imaginable but I couldn't handle some of the nastier odors, no matter how often I encountered them. My tummy is glad I changed careers.
You're right that it's an overused phrase. I'm pretty sure some people can't smell copper or coppery blood and even if we all could, there has to be a better way to indicate the presence of it.
Janet wrote: "Erin (Paperback Stash) wrote: "Women detectives who feel like they have to prove themselves to the others"Interesting, but don't you think that it is a fact of life? Women who enter professions ..."
Yeah, but to me a lot of the characters overdo it and get a big chip on their shoulder when I really see no ill intent from the other person they're talking to. I see this a lot in other genres, like Urban fantasy, as well, not mysteries specifically
Jennifer wrote: "Seeley wrote: "John wrote: "hauntingly beautiful.policed his brass (if used more than once)
gumshoe (in any novel newer than 1945)
the smell of copper (when referring to blood at a crime scene...."
You guys are totally right about the coppery smell of blood. Never even thought about it but I just looked at three books in a row that mentioned pennies, copper and blood in the same paragraph.
I have a terrible sense of smell, chronic sinus issues, so I can't smell blood.
What a loopy, wonderful thread! Thanks especially to John, Mel, & Dave for cracking me up.I had to pitch in because I just finished yet another mystery with BOTH of my most loathed cliches: (1) a schlumpy self-despising heavy-drinking middle-aged detective who's a babe magnet, & (2) his paper-pushing PR-crazy boss who's can't stand how he always breaks the rules in reaching his brilliant solutions to otherwise opaque crimes, & so has booted him into some horrid little backwater assignment or location.
The "every female wants to sleep with the cop even though he's depressed and alcoholic" cliché annoys me.
A story is only as good as its antagonist. It's a mistake not to wring the maximum good out of a really interesting villain, thus the almost mandatory "taunting scene," where the villain, instead of killing the tec, brags about how clever he was. You've not read the last of those scenes; they're too tempting.
I'm noticing that every male middle-aged detective has to have a teenage daughter (who's moody but incredibly smart for her age). I don't mind this, I gave my own characer a teenage daughter just to give her "depth" and make her a little more realistic...then everyone liked the daughter so much they wanted to see more of her. Anyway my theory is that the male detectives have teenage daughters because girls talk about their feelings a lot more than boys do, and this forces the detective to talk about HIS feelings, which otherwise they couldn't do (without seeming girly or at least contrived as hell).
Lisa wrote: "I'm noticing that every male middle-aged detective has to have a teenage daughter (who's moody but incredibly smart for her age). I don't mind this, I gave my own characer a teenage daughter just t..."Hmm. that's a sure sign the meme has run its course. I'll make my next detective a bisexual Inuit quadriplegic dwarf with no teenage daughter, just a dachshund. Oh, wait. Somebody's already done that. Never mind.
There are some real corkers here! Here's a Chief Constable complaining about cliche crime fiction tropes:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...
He thinks we should be reading about realistic policing. I was a Detective for nine years and, believe it or not, I'm not an ex-army drunk with a string of floozies to my name. Maybe I got out at the right time!
P.S Sorry to have to link to the Daily Mail. Remember to wash your eyes (and your soul) after reading.
Great thread - I'm taking notes. My absolute pet peeve is the serial killer with an artistic or poetic bent. Yeah, right. I just finally saw the first episode of The Following and was absolutely disgusted.
My pet peeve is the confessional conversation between victim and killer. All this talking going on -- is it supposed to be dramatic? Sort of like Alexandra's poetic killer. I can't finish the book after that. Maybe coming from NJ and living in Vegas, the talkative killer scene just strikes me as ridiculous.
I may have posted this before, but the cliche that really kills a book for me is when the author wants to disarm the villain and has him/her stumble and drop the gun. When people start to fall, the reflexively tighten their grip on whatever they're holding, including, possibly, the trigger. This is outrageously stupid.
Yes, J. I agree. Stumbling and falling in chase scenes, too -- why does the woman always trip and fall? Man stops gallantly to help her to her feet and off the go again with her tripping some more. Stealing from Paul Simon….there must be 50 ways to disarm a villain.
This thread is hilarious and spot on.
Then there's the Stormtrooper effect: The good guy can stand out in the open with 5000 bad guys shooting at him and never get even a scratch. Meanwhile, he fires one shot that ricochets off a wall, an empty barrel, a car hood, and a roof beam before killing six bad guys wearing Kevlar and crouching behind brick walls.And let's not forget that the hero's six shooter can be fired 57 times before he has to reload.
Good point. I am going to make my heroine less of a klutz from now on. :)
Love this thread. Got me to wondering, if "hauntingly beautiful" is a cliché, is "beautifully haunting" one as well?My odd take on all of this: the cliché alone is, yes, to be avoided. But what about starting with the cliché and adding some unexpected counterpoint to it. Does that make it OK?
For example, the gruff detective (Kojak) who likes lollipops. The female cop who feels she must prove herself to the guys but also spends her weekends watching chick flicks. The goofball rookie cop who solves a crime through some 1930s era crime fighting technique he read about in a vintage comic book he collected as a kid. Those sort of add-ons to the base cliché can sometimes soften them maybe?
"It's complicated."Giant leaps of detecting intuition beyond even the powers of Holmes but in the book because the writer needed it (and you can tell).
But no. The killer must taunt the detective instead of shooting him/her. Otherwise, there'd be no sequel.