Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
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Jeni wrote: "Okay, sorry--not Goblet (though enchanting the Goblet to spit out Harry's name was no small feat), but Triwizard Cup should have been used in my previous comment. Everything still remains the same..."I agree with Jeni. Also we shouldn’t forget, Voldemort REALY enjoys messing with people. Making everyone dance to his tune right under Dumbledores nose was probably immensely satisfying to him.
Nichola wrote: ":) Understatement or not, only an extreme minority seem to have issue with it. Glad you quoted that actually I hadn't even noticed the error in that sentence. "Do you have evidence to support your statement?
pd. I know im being a prick, haven't had my coffe yet
Nichola wrote: "Why should it be justified if only one or two people out of millions have a problem with it? In the words of patrick Rothfuss, just because it isn'y written in the book doesn't mean it never happe..."It's hardly that few. There are several people in this thread alone. And if you've ever been part of a larger HP fan community, you'd know that it's a major issue brought up over and over again by thousands of fans.
In any case, literature is not a popularity contest or something. Just because the majority of people don't have a problem with something (whether or not that's true) doesn't mean that other people's objections to it are invalid.
Dumbledore knew the cup was a portkey. That is the only way it worked. Dumbledore gave fake Moody permission to make the cup a portkey to transport the winner to the arena or wherever the crowd was watching. Moody just made the portkey take the winner to the graveyard first. Hogwarts was strongly protected by Dumbledore. A portkey would not have worked without Dumbledore's permission. That is why Harry winning the tournament was the only way fake Moody's plan could work.
Julian wrote: "Nichola wrote: ":) Understatement or not, only an extreme minority seem to have issue with it. Glad you quoted that actually I hadn't even noticed the error in that sentence. "Do you have evidenc..."
lol. No, that why I said only a minority SEEM to have this problem, but lets assume you can find 60 000 people who have this problem it still only equates to <1% of the people who have read the book worldwide based on sales figures. This figure does not take into account the people who watched the film but never read the book or the people who bought ebooks. Then we have the sales of audio books which are not taken into these figures, nor the number of people who have passed the book on to friends, borrowed from a library or read to their multiple children (or illegally downloaded >:( )
Most scientists/mathematicians etc will tell you that a figure needs to be between 5% and 10% to be significant meaning you will have to find 300 000 - 600 000 people (based purely on book sales for the sake of argument) who agree that this is a real problem before it is classed as significant. I'm more than happy to take my opinion back if you can find the 60 000 people (<1%) to agree that this is a significant problem :)
Prick or not, I think you're kinda funny :p
Mitali wrote: "Nichola wrote: "Why should it be justified if only one or two people out of millions have a problem with it? In the words of patrick Rothfuss, just because it isn'y written in the book doesn't mea..."Read above post for suggested figures. At what point did I say people's opinions were invalid? I asked why should something be justified when only a minority have a problem with it? It's kinda like asking a football manager to change the match line up just because 3 fans don't like the team on the pitch. It's not necessary.
Because Voldermort lacked an appreciation for simplicity. He obviously had too much time on his hands to fume over his failures and to come up with overcomplicated schemes that would lead to a 7 book series :)
Jessica wrote: "It's been years since I read this book, but my husband said something that has always stuck with me: why make the goblet of fire a portkey when it's going to require getting Harry into the competit..."Trying to rationalize that this was the more conceivable way is futile. It's far-fetched and overcomplicated. The way to analyse is through Voldemort's goal. He was defeated by a baby boy in a spectacular way,so he must do the same to regain total trust by his supporters and fear by his opponents.
Sneaking Harry away would by no way ascertain his power. Instead, by totally reversing the laws of an ancient competition and showing Dumbledore's flawed defence in such a grand way he'll be asserting himself in a way a toothbrush portkey never could.
Krister wrote: "It was all about Voldemort needing to make a big statement. His whole evil 'career' was about making people fear him. That's what made him tick. He didn't want to rule the world so that he could pa..."Exactly! I wrote this before I read your input :)
"
Trying to rationalize that this was the more conceivable way is futile. It's far-fetched and overcomplicated. The way to analyse is through Voldemort's goal. He was defeated by a baby boy in a spectacular way,so he must do the same to regain total trust by his supporters and fear by his opponents.
Sneaking Harry away would by no way ascertain his power. Instead, by totally reversing the laws of an ancient competition and showing Dumbledore's flawed defence in such a grand way he'll be asserting himself in a way a toothbrush portkey never could."
Nichola wrote: "Read above post for suggested figures. At what point did I say people's opinions were invalid? I asked why should something be justified when only a minority have a problem with it? It's kinda like asking a football manager to change the match line up just because 3 fans don't like the team on the pitch. It's not necessary. "Try reading my actual post before replying. I said that criticizing a book is not a popularity contest. It's idiotic to claim that just because X number of people have no problem with some aspect of a book, then anyone who has a problem with it is automatically wrong. Even if one person has a problem with a book, they have every right to express that opinion. And that's all we are doing here: expressing opinions. It's not like Rowling is going to go back and rewrite a 13-year old book, whether 1 fan or all fans have a problem with one aspect of it.
Mitali wrote: "Nichola wrote: "Read above post for suggested figures. At what point did I say people's opinions were invalid? I asked why should something be justified when only a minority have a problem with it?..."*Rolls eyes at predictability*
Try reading my actual reply and I may bother with a full response. Re the figures response, that's what we in the UK call sarcasm. We tend to use it when we don't actually mean what we are saying (generally obvious when we use smilies.) Incidentally, didn't your mother ever teach you that it was rude to call someone you don't even know an idiot?
Please refrain from making assuptions about what I am saying and ignoring what I have written quite frankly I find it lazy and rude. Just for you in big capital letters AT WHAT POINT DID I SAY A PERSON'S POINT OF VIEW WASN'T VALID? AT WHAT POINT DID I SAY ANYONE WAS WRONG? I believe you have the franchise on that score.
On your one person mission to defend your right to an opinion you have decided that I am not allowed one? Hypocrite much. Either read a response properly and reply on what is written or jog on, I haven't come here to argue with you or anybody else for that matter.
Nichola wrote: "Mitali wrote: "Nichola wrote: "Read above post for suggested figures. At what point did I say people's opinions were invalid? I asked why should something be justified when only a minority have a p..."Well, you are obviously a troll, so I'll just leave this pointless discussion.
Nichola wrote: "Either read a response properly and reply on what is written or jog on, I haven't come here to argue with you or anybody else for that matter."Mitali wrote: "Well, you are obviously a troll, so I'll just leave this pointless discussion."
Wow. You can only be a teenager with logic like that.
I think the cup was going to be a portkey any way you go about it. If the tournament had been on the up and up, the cup would have been a portkey that took the winner back to the arena at the entrance of the labyrinth. It was no stretch for Crouch to simply make the portkey take him to the old Riddle cemetery.What I can't figure out is why the cup did take Potter back to the arena the second time he grabbed it. Can they be assigned multiple destinations? I had thought they were just two-way streets. There and back again, so to speak.
You guys rock. I wish I could "like" a whole bunch of these comments. You've made some good points, and some of you totally get what I was getting at.I thought of another much-simpler plan that fake-Moody could have done to get Harry to Voldy: take advantage of any one of many opportunities when he had Harry alone and transfigure him into something small and portable (the way he transfigured Malfoy into a ferret). Then throw him in his pocket and head out for a night on the town in Hogsmeade, and Disaparate from there.
Anyway, of course there's no book if fake-Moody takes the easiest way. I still love it (in fact, I'm rereading it now--I started rereading the series after I posted). I love it more now than I did the first time around. I just feel like the plot could have remained mostly the same but been slightly more believable with a couple of modifications. Like if there were some other explanation for Harry's name getting into the Goblet of Fire, then Fake-Moody could just be taking advantage of the situation to get Harry to Voldy. It's believable that Fake-Moody is sent to Hogwarts to get close to the action and try to get Harry. It's even believable that Voldy wants to screw with Harry for a while before dragging him back to steal his blood and kill him. But still, it seems like all the risks involved with fake-Moody's plan weren't worth it.
Putting Harry's name in the Goblet did a couple of things. First, it put him into the competition and therefore accessible (with a TON of help) to the portkey. But primarily (for me), it cast him in a bad, unbelievable light. He faced ridicule and suspicion from everyone, even his best friend.
From that point forward, he became an emotionally unstable and unreliable witness that won't likely be believed when Voldemort returns.
Good point. I'm not sure, but I'm glad she did. I thought it was awesome that Harry was one of the Triwizard champions.
![Raevyn "Lucia" [I'm in it for the books]](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1374959527p1/18721584.jpg)
The way I see it, JKR made it that way so Cedric would be there, too, thus dying.
Voldy had a lot of preparing to do before he could get Harry's blood. So that could be a reason why.He also had a servant he knew would get Harry to the end.
And also, Voldemort's a weird guy. He doesn't think like a normal person. He's not one to do things halfway :p
Voldemort had to preform a huge, long, and perilous ritual to become whole again. He also had to go through so much to get his blood. But to him it was worth it.
Okay, so I skimmed over most of the comments but didn't read every single word, so maybe some else points this out BUT this whole issue is addressed in the book. Voldemort wanted the fake Moody to spend all year "training" Harry so that he could properly fight. And it's stated that one of the main reason's the trophies was used as a port was so no one would have properly known about Voldemort's return. If things had worked out Harry would simply have disappeared from the Tournament and not survived to bare witness and warn everyone of Voldemort's return.I also saw a lot of people mentioning that Dumbledore, because he's headmaster, is able to apparate in Hogwarts. That is very much not the case in the books and was something added in the movies. In Half-Blood Prince they have to leave the school on broom sticks and go to Hogsmeade to disaparate to go get the horcrux. The owner of the three Broom sticks seeing them come and go from Hogsmeade is how Malfoy knows Dumbledore left and returned to the school.
Samantha The Escapist wrote: "Jeni wrote: "Okay, sorry--not Goblet (though enchanting the Goblet to spit out Harry's name was no small feat), but Triwizard Cup should have been used in my previous comment. Everything still rem..."The needed blood of an enemy to revive Voldemort and since he has countless enemies, they could have actually used any one of them to revive him. But Voldemort wanted Harry because he thought his blood would make him the strongest as it has his mother's protection. So actually even without Harry's blood, Voldy could have been revived, although he won't be as strong.
Another point of why imposter Moody couldn't have just taken Harry's blood is because Voldmemort had wanted Harry to be at the graveyard so he could kill him in front of all the deatheaters and prove Harry was a mere common boy with no special power to match his. After reading all the books, especially half-blood, you get a sense of how Voldemorts thinks and acts. He would have wanted to humiliate, torture and kill Harry right then and there. I think that's the reason why Harry at to be there in person at the graveyard. But it didn't go as Voldy planned.
Oh, I just thought of something! Harry was probably in pain and tired when he made it back to the middle of the maze, so it would be a lot easier for Voldemort to get him weak, thus making it easier to get the blood from him and kill him.
There are several reasons:1. Like above mentioned: Harry would have been weak and tired and small-looking. A perfect victim for Voldemort to kill/humiliate in front of his cronies.
2. The middle of the maze is just that. It would be hard for teachers and people that could help to get to the center of the maze.
3. Voldemort is a diva. He has to kill Harry spectacularly. It can't just be random, like the toothbrush.
4. Subset of 3- Rowling would have nothing to write if else.
5. Harry has to touch the cup. With "Moody" helping him out, it would be foolproof.
I think the biggest reason is just that JKR almost never lets her characters come up with a sensible plan because the crazy ones make better stories.
Eleni wrote: "I think the biggest reason is just that JKR almost never lets her characters come up with a sensible plan because the crazy ones make better stories."Right. A little secret about writing - if the characters made sensible choices all the time, there would be no stories to tell. The series could have ended very early in the first book with Harry saying, "no, that's okay. It all sounds too dangerous. I won't be going to Hogwarts."
Dwayne wrote: "Eleni wrote: "I think the biggest reason is just that JKR almost never lets her characters come up with a sensible plan because the crazy ones make better stories."Right. A little secret about wr..."
I get your point, I know that most stories would be much shorter and more boring if everyone were sensible all the time.
It does frustrate me a little though when supposedly really intelligent characters like Dumbledore and Voldemort come up with such idiotic plans. I feel like their brains are being sacrificed for the good of the plot. Maybe if she didn't make such a big thing about how clever they're supposed to be then their plans wouldn't seem so silly.
Eleni wrote: "It does frustrate me a little though when supposedly really intelligent characters like Dumbledore and Voldemort come up with such idiotic plans."In the real world even the most intelligent people make mistakes now and then. Literary characters should be the same or they would be boring. Dumbledore is my favorite character. I admire him for his intelligence, but it's his flaws that make him human to me.
Ok, here is the most sensible answer. You can't magically transport into or out of Hogwarts. However, we have seen that the restriction can be lifted for certain things (i.e. learning to apparate). So let's assume you can't portkey into or out of Hogwarts (a reasonable assumption). This next point is key: the Cup was already a portkey! Why would it transport Harry back to the entrance of the maze instead of where he first grabbed it? So, you can reasonably assume that the Cup would transport the winner to the entrance. Everybody cheers.
But Fake-Moody got a hold of the Cup and added another portkey to it. This worked because it was already allowed to be a portkey. Fake-Moody's portkey took precedence over the original. It was designed to be a one way port to the graveyard. Once used by Harry (and Cedric), the Cup reverted back to it's original port, which was to take the winner to the entrance of the maze. Thus, Harry grabs it again and is transported to the entrance.
There you go. Problem solved.
I know I'm really late, but well. It is so simple, how can you guys not notice it? It is not about isolation or because Barty couldn't go through Harry's stuff to turn it into a Portkey or that Voldemort likes theatrics, no!! Remember you can't teleport in and out of Hogwarts (either by Apparition or Disapparition, Floo powder, or Portkeys) Only the headmaster can lift the enchantments (he lifted them to teleport Harry to Hogwarts form the Ministry at the end of OOTP, lifted them in the Great Hall in HBP so the sixth years could practice Apparition) . So Dumbledore lifted the enchantments in the maze, because the Cup was supposed to be a Portkey and teleport the one who takes it back to the entrance where the audience is and the judges are, so everyone knows he/she took it. Imagine if you take the Cup and have to run back to the entrance and then some other contestant hexes you, takes the Cup from you and modifies your memory. I don't remember that well, but I think that Moody( Barty) was given the task to make it a Portkey (or he confunded Crouch SR to do it, don't remember) and instead of making the Cup take Harry to the entrance of the maze, he made it take him to the graveyard. The Tournament was a nice opportunity, since Harry is protected by Dumbledore in and out of Hogwarts, and as many said before, Harry is isolated in the maze. The plan was a bit risky and way too complicated but Voldemort was desperate and already had a small body and and only needed to make the potion to come back fully. The Tournament was an event that was going to take place in couple of months and that was a really nice opportunity.
Jose wrote: "I know I'm really late, but well. It is so simple, how can you guys not notice it? It is not about isolation or because Barty couldn't go through Harry's stuff to turn it into a Portkey or that Vol..."*Sigh* You might considering actually reading the entire discussion before coming up with this 'simple' solution. There are a number of issues with it, many of which have already been mentioned in this thread. (Not to mention that the whole issue has been discussed thousands of times in Harry Potter fandom in general).
First of all, there is absolutely no mention in the entire HP canon that only the headmaster can make a portkey on Hogwarts grounds, and there is no mention about any restrictions on creating a portkey to take you out of some place, as opposed to into it. The restrictions on apparation are mentioned often, but nothing similar is ever stated about portkeys. If such restrictions do exist, they should have been mentioned in the relevant book (GoF). In their absence, there's a plot hole.
Second of all, even if there are restrictions to portkeys, they apply only to the Hogwarts school and grounds. Dumbledore doesn't have power over the rest of the universe. I'll just quote myself from earlier in this thread, rather than typing the same thing again:
But even if we hypothetically accept these above restrictions, that still doesn't fill the gaping plot hole in GoF. Instead of handing Harry a portkey in his own office, fake-Moody could have done so during Harry's visits to Hogsmeade. That way he would still have carried out Voldemort's plan several months earlier and it would be far less risky.
Mitali wrote: "Jose wrote: "I know I'm really late, but well. It is so simple, how can you guys not notice it? It is not about isolation or because Barty couldn't go through Harry's stuff to turn it into a Portke..."You might have a point with Hogsmeade. But obviously there are protections against entering Hogwarts magically. Otherwise Draco wouldn't have gone through all that trouble with the vanishing cabinet. Sirius could have just portkeyed into Hogwarts during the third book. You get the point. Remember, Dumbledore had to undo the enchantments around Hogwarts when flying with Harry during book 6. It's heavily implied.
Also, who's to say that Voldemort was ready for Harry before June? There could be other reasons for the delay.
Mitali wrote: "Jose wrote: "I know I'm really late, but well. It is so simple, how can you guys not notice it? It is not about isolation or because Barty couldn't go through Harry's stuff to turn it into a Portke..."I never said that only Dumbledore could create a Portkey at Hogwarts. I said that only he can lift the enchantments at Hogwarts, as I believe happened when sixth-years were practicing Apparition. While now that I think of it, no one ever said that only the headmaster could lift the enchantments, there are several occasions when he does, and I don't think anyone else can do so, only him, since he is the headmaster.
While the whole plan was risky, complicated, and far-fetched, without it, there will be no plot and excitement. And you say that there only restrictions against Apparition are mentiones and not against other means of magical transport. Well, if there are restrictions against Apparition, there will be for other means of transport, too, if not there will be no point for them setting up restrictions against Appar. Anyone be like: '' Oh, can't Apparate into Hogwarts, well, better make a Portkey, better enter by the Floo Network''. Not everyone can Apparate, but anyone could create a Portkey, far easier, you don't need a license for that. By Hogsmeade, you have a point, but what's the fun in that? As some others have said, Voldemort will like to create fear and insecurity after a student was kidnapped in the school's grounds under Dumbledore's nose.
Yes, it's likely that there were some restrictions against Portkeys into/out of Hogwarts, but my point is that these restrictions were not mentioned at all, least of all in the book when they were extremely relevant to the plot. That's one of the things that makes this a plothole.My point isn't that Fake-Moody should have kidnapped Harry at the beginning of the book, leaving no plot for the rest of the book. Obviously that would be a terrible book. My point is that JKR should have thought through these issues, and come up with logical and clearly stated reasons why such a complex and year-long kidnapping plot was absolutely necessary, and why the much more obvious and simpler alternatives would not have worked. She could have easily framed it as part of Voldemort and Wormtail's dialogue in the first chapter.
Austin wrote: "Otherwise Draco wouldn't have gone through all that trouble with the vanishing cabinet. ..."
Frankly, the whole of Draco's story in HBP is yet another gaping plothole. Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore himself. How would getting some of the Death Eaters into Hogwarts via the Vanishing Cabinet help him accomplish that? After all, the fact that he tried to kill Dumbledore indirectly through the opal necklace and poisoned mead, suggests that having the Death Eaters present for the murder wasn't a requirement at all. So why did he waste a whole year trying to repair the Vanishing Cabinet?
In any case, the security measures were considerably tightened in HBP, so pointing to them doesn't really help us when we're trying to understand the security measures in GoF.
Jeni wrote: "Because a grown man (Barty Crouch, Jr. disguised as Mad-Eye Moody) would have no cause to be rooting around in Harry's toiletries, for one thing. For another, I was very pleasantly surprised when t..."I totally agree with this. :)
Ciara *I love Harry Potter!* wrote: "Here are a few I came up with:1) There has to be a good story.
2) Voldemort probably wanted Barty Crouch Jr. to prove himself, therefore giving him the task of getting Harry through.
3) Voldmeo..."
Samantha The Escapist wrote: "The only argument in favor of the Cup Portkey that makes any sense to me is timing.
I'm with the OP's husband on this. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE these books and I loved reading this one, but the ..."
And also Voldemort needed to get stronger to go through the process of regeneration using Harry's blood etc etc
Samantha The Escapist wrote: "Jeni wrote: "Okay, sorry--not Goblet (though enchanting the Goblet to spit out Harry's name was no small feat), but Triwizard Cup should have been used in my previous comment. Everything still rema..."But Harry's blood had to be forcibly taken.. "Blood of the enemy, forcibly taken".
Now tell me how do you make Harry's death look like an accident if he did any of the following: a) enchanted Harry's Toothbrush, b) enchanted Harry's socks, c) enchanted Harry's bedsheets or d) if he asked Harry to stay behind one day and to 'pass' him a book or a quill which was the portkey? They wanted Harry's death to look like an accident which couldn't happen in any other way. Since the Triwizard Tournament had a history of accidental deaths...perfect cover for Voldemort and Fake!Moody
Anne wrote: "Now tell me how do you make Harry's death look like an accident if he did any of the following: a) enchanted Harry's Toothbrush, b) enchanted Harry's socks, c) enchanted Harry's bedsheets or d) if ..."Tell me, how exactly did Fake!Moody plan to make Harry's disappearance in the maze seem like an accident? If Harry had died fighting the dragon or drowned in the lake or been killed by an acromantula, it would have seemed like an accident, and yet another fatality of the Triwizard Tournament. But that wasn't the plan at all. Harry was supposed to touch the cup portkey, be transported to the graveyard, be killed by Voldemort, and his death kept a secret (so as to keep Voldemort's return a secret). As far as anyone at Hogwarts would know, Harry would simply disappear without a trace in the maze, and the Triwizard cup would be missing as well. Wouldn't that raise far more suspicions and far more quickly than if Harry simply disappeared while on a trip to Hogsmeade, for instance?
If Fake!Moody had kidnapped Harry on some ordinary day, no one would have gotten worried about Harry not being around for several hours - Ron and Hermione might have thought he was at Hagrid's or something. Instead, the plan was to kidnap Harry right in the middle of a highly public event, when all the Hogwarts professors were on high alert about anything that might possibly go wrong, and when Harry's disappearance would be noticed within minutes. Please tell me how that's 'perfect cover'? It's a frankly insane plan.
barty crouch as moody could have made a portkey out of something in his own office, and then called harry to his office so that they were alone and then he could have made harry touch the portkey by some excuse ( "fetch that book for me, will you")
JK Rowling dreamed up the plot because she thought it would be cool and mind-blowing and all. It's the kind of plot we saw in some of the James Bond movies such as You Only Live Twice where space rockets "devour" other space capsules and they are launched from Mount Fuji or somewhere. That was the kind of plot that people enjoyed back in the "swinging sixties." Likewise, Rowling dreamed up an extravagant scenario and created a bunch of OMG-surprises like Harry's parents materializing and Mad Eye being bogus. JK Rowling did not count on some readers (like me!) being all Grumpy Cat and saying "preposterous." Well, she's the billionaire!!
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Well... you know... that's an understatement"
:) Understatement or not, only an extreme minority seem to have issue with it. Glad you quoted that actually I hadn't even noticed the error in that sentence.